South China Sea Forum

[Viva_Viet]

No thing new in SCS(east Vn sea), PLAN still so poorly trained and useless as usual, VN still control the biggest and the most important part.

 

[sinait]

Chinese can not deny that Mônglian Kublai khan is foreigner, Mongolians had invaded and conquered total China territory and ruled China in long time, Yuan is foreigner Dynasty. Long or short time ruling by foreigner in Vietnam or in China is got same nuture. Occupation by foreign invaders in other countries's territory is illegal.

Japan did not given Senkaku Island back to China after WW 2. it did not mentioned in San Fracisco Treaty after WW 2. "Nine dashed Claim" in 1948 of China over Islands of Vietnam in East Sea of Vietnam is illegal.

Kublai Khan willingly became Chinese.
He ruled as a Chinese emperor, so he is not a foreigner.
You can also apply to become a Chinese though I doubt they will accept you.
.

 

[FlowerSummer]

Chinese can not deny that Mônglian Kublai khan is foreigner, Mongolians had invaded and conquered total China territory and ruled China in long time, Yuan is foreigner Dynasty. Long or short time ruling by foreigner in Vietnam or in China is got same nuture. Occupation by foreign invaders in other countries's territory is illegal.

Japan did not given Senkaku Island back to China after WW 2. it did not mentioned in San Fracisco Treaty after WW 2. "Nine dashed Claim" in 1948 of China over Islands of Vietnam in East Sea of Vietnam is illegal.

Applying your logic, the current British monarch is a foreigner dynasty in UK, I guess good old Eliz aren't gonna happy to hear that. Long or short time ruling does matter when it comes to claim, generally if there is multiple claimant on the same territory, the one who can prove that they are the one that rule these area longer than other claimant will have the strongest claim.

Whether it get mention in treaty or not is another problem, but as a loser in WW2, japan needs to return ALL territory they annex from china. This is not even the problem about legality, but about the responsibilities japan need to take up for trying to play the bully during WW2 but ultimately lost. If they don't shoulder their share of responsibilities, it will be very unfair for Germany, which has also lost WW2 and force to return all the territory they once annex.

 

[samsara]

Chinese can not deny that Mônglian Kublai khan is foreigner, Mongolians had invaded and conquered total China territory and ruled China in long time, Yuan is foreigner Dynasty. Long or short time ruling by foreigner in Vietnam or in China is got same nuture. Occupation by foreign invaders in other countries's territory is illegal.

Japan did not given Senkaku Island back to China after WW 2. it did not mentioned in San Fracisco Treaty after WW 2. "Nine dashed Claim" in 1948 of China over Islands of Vietnam in East Sea of Vietnam is illegal.

And you may also add up another FOREIGN dynasty to serve your narration: MANCHU or QING Dynasty

Don't you feel shy that you know so little about the Chinese history yet mentioned it often here at PDF? I still feel amazed with your statement that people in Taiwan Island speak Hokkien thus they are not Han people

And about the Diaoyu Island, Japan can dream on to ever settle with that their illegal occupation of that island.
As @sinait mentioned, Japan need to launch again its Third Aggression against China and win over it in order to settle with the loot resulted from the Shimonoseki Treaty 1895 following the First Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression (抗日战争).

And among many other things, TIME does not side with Japan either... and neither Vietnam on its illegal occupation of those Chinese territories in the South China Sea!

During the Japanese war of aggression against China, Japan invaded and illegally occupied Nanhai Zhudao. After the end of World War II, the Cairo Declaration and the Potsdam Proclamation as well as a series of post-war international documents stipulated that all territories Japan had stolen should be returned to China. Accordingly, after World War II, China recovered Taiwan, Penghu Islands, Xisha Qundao and Nansha Qundao which belong to China in the first place. After the resumption of the exercise of sovereignty over Nanhai Zhudao, China drew up the relevant map with the dotted line, and published the map to the world in 1948. So the dotted line has been there since 1948.

Since its founding, the People's Republic of China has further upheld its sovereignty over Nanhai Zhudao and the relevant rights and interests in the South China Sea. China has never stopped patrolling Nanhai Zhudao and relevant waters as well as law enforcement, resource development and scientific survey activities there. Nanhai Zhudao have been widely recognized as a part of China's territory by the international community after World War II, which constitutes an integral part of post-war territorial arrangement and international order. Encyclopedias, yearbooks and maps published in many countries after the war all mark the Nansha Qundao as Chinese territory.
。。。

 

[sinait]

The Mongol Empire emerged from the unification of nomadic tribes in the Mongol homeland under the leadership of Genghis Khan, he was not chinese. He annexed China to Mongolia.

Very tiring to convince an ignoramus.
Joining Mongolia to China and annexing China is a big difference.
https://www.biography.com/people/kublai-khan-9369657
Kublai Khan Biography.com
Emperor, General(c. 1215–c. 1294)
Mongolian general and statesman Kublai Khan was the grandson of Genghis Khan.
He conquered China, founding and becoming the first emperor of the country's Yuan Dynasty.

Kublai Khan became a Chinese emperor, the first emperor of the Yuan Dynasty.
I cannot help you if you cannot comprehend such simple English.
.

 

[sinait]

Treaty is treaty. The matter is not depend on your willing.

Next time, President of USA will conquer all territory of China and announced that he join to Chinese and has right to rule Chinese people. is he right ?

I think you have serious problem with logic.
Have you seen a Mongolian in person ?
A Mongolian Chinese is indistinguishable from the rest of the Chinese.
I am not from China, but I think the Chinese would like it if the USA become part of China.
If the Japanese had been willing to be part of China, China could very well had a Japanese Chinese emperor.
That is the invader must become Chinese to rule over the Chinese.
The result was a 8 year long war that resulted in the total defeat of the Japanese.

That is the strength and greatness of the Chinese culture, it is able to subsume the invader.
.

 

[FlowerSummer]

The Mongol Empire emerged from the unification of nomadic tribes in the Mongol homeland under the leadership of Genghis Khan, he was not chinese. He annexed China to Mongolia.

Genghis is not an emperor of china, but Kublai is. Kublai formed Yuan dynasty and split it from the mongol empire. You need to learn more about Chinese and mongol history, do you even know the history about mongol empire collapse into 4 major parts, where the legit heir line of Genghis ruling only golden horde and lost control over the other 3 major parts of the former mongol empire?

the current British monarch had gained her power in side of UK territory, she is native people of England at this time. China nine dashed claim in East Sea of Vietnam is from 1948, very short time, when Cochine ocean does belong to Vietnamese far more longer than your claimant.

The current British dynasty aren't originated from England LOL, they aren't native in England LOL, I bet Irish are so wanna kill you now. And Kublai khan too gain power from china not Mongolia, because the legit heir of Genghis is ruling golden horde, Kublai doesnt rule golden horde. By the time yuan dynasty is form, the mongol empire already fractured to 4 major parts. This is the reason why Chinese historian doesn't included Genghis in the records of yuan emperors, because Genghis died before yuan is form, and thus china cant claim the other mongol khanate territory.

Treaty is treaty. The matter does not depend on your willing.



Next time, President of USA will conquer all territory of China and announced that he join to Chinese and has right to rule Chinese people. is he right ?

Applying your logic, then china controlling and ruling SCS is legit, because I never know about a treaty says the island in SCS belong to Vietnam.

If said president let go his USA citizenship, obtain Chinese citizenship, name the new country using china system instead of America way, set the newly form (that included north America territory) china's capital in asia, as well as all administration system follow the former Chinese government system, then yes, he can rule Chinese.

Basically if the newly form china follows the system of former Chinese administration in majority, this new country is basically china.

 

[cochine]

I think you have serious problem with logic.
Have you seen a Mongolian in person ?
A Mongolian Chinese is indistinguishable from the rest of the Chinese.
I am not from China, but I think the Chinese would like it if the USA become part of China.
If the Japanese had been willing to be part of China, China could very well had a Japanese Chinese emperor.
That is the invader must become Chinese to rule over the Chinese.
The result was a 8 year long war that resulted in the total defeat of the Japanese.

That is the strength and greatness of the Chinese culture, it is able to subsume the invader.
.

Redirect, you accepted that Mongolian Emperor òf Yuan was invader and had ruled Chinese people.

Genghis is not an emperor of china, but Kublai is. Kublai formed Yuan dynasty and split it from the mongol empire. You need to learn more about Chinese and mongol history, do you even know the history about mongol empire collapse into 4 major parts, where the legit heir line of Genghis ruling only golden horde and lost control over the other 3 major parts of the former mongol empire?

Separating and collapsing is the failure of all Empire in the world in the histories. Kublai was the rest heritage of the former Mongolian Emperor and ruled China to the end of his Yuan Dynasty. Ming Dynasty Emperor of China was legally kicked out Mongolian invader back to where they was native people and established the Ming Dynasty.

The current British dynasty aren't originated from England LOL, they aren't native in England LOL, I bet Irish are so wanna kill you now. And Kublai khan too gain power from china not Mongolia, because the legit heir of Genghis is ruling golden horde, Kublai doesnt rule golden horde. By the time yuan dynasty is form, the mongol empire already fractured to 4 major parts. This is the reason why Chinese historian doesn't included Genghis in the records of yuan emperors, because Genghis died before yuan is form, and thus china cant claim the other mongol khanate territory.

British Monarch is not separated from German Monarch or other Europ Monarch in mainland Europe, my friend.

Applying your logic, then china controlling and ruling SCS is legit, because I never know about a treaty says the island in SCS belong to Vietnam.

If said president let go his USA citizenship, obtain Chinese citizenship, name the new country using china system instead of America way, set the newly form (that included north America territory) china's capital in asia, as well as all administration system follow the former Chinese government system, then yes, he can rule Chinese.

Basically if the newly form china follows the system of former Chinese administration in majority, this new country is basically china.

Study more, my friend.

by Sans Francisco Conference after WW 2, in 1951, Claim of China KMT over Paracel and Spratly Islands of Vietnam (was ocouppated by Japanese Army from 1940 to 1945) was completely rejected (45 votes against out of 51).

 

[sinait]

Redirect, you accepted that Mongolian Emperor òf Yuan was invader and had ruled Chinese people.

You are really FUNNY.
Kublai Khan became Chinese to rule China and he ruled from ancient Beijing.
The normal folks couldn't be bothered who is ruling them as long as the emperor is one of them, among the many different ethnic Chinese and is able to provide peace, food and prosperitiy.
In the distant future, an ethnic Japanese Chinese could become president of China.

Did the Chinese convert to Vietnamese to rule Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
Did the French convert to Vietnamese to rule Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
Did the USA become Vietnamese to control Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
See the Difference ? Maybe not as you got problem processing logic.
.

 

[FlowerSummer]

Redirect, you accepted that Mongolian Emperor òf Yuan was invader and had ruled Chinese people.



Separating and collapsing is the failure of all Empire in the world in the histories. Kublai was the rest heritage of the former Mongolian Emperor and ruled China to the end of his Yuan Dynasty. Ming Dynasty Emperor of China was legally kicked out Mongolian invader back to where they was native people and established the Ming Dynasty.



British Monarch is not separated from German Monarch or other Europ Monarch in mainland Europe, my friend.



Study more, my friend.

by Sans Francisco Conference after WW 2, in 1951, Claim of China KMT over Paracel and Spratly Islands of Vietnam (was ocouppated by Japanese Army from 1940 to 1945) was completely rejected (45 votes against out of 51).

I don't get your logic at all, on one hand you stated british monarch are England native dynasty (the truth is Britain had been invaded, conquered and ruled by waves after waves of foreign dynasties since roman conquest of Britannia, so many to the point I cant count how many of them), on the other hand you said british monarch aren't separated from german monarch... so tell me my friend, is good old Eliz native of England or native of german? Is it the british ruling germans or Germans ruling british?

Kublai doesn't take any order from the golden horde khagan, this means that yuan empire is independent and was not a part of mongol empire. FYI, The founder of thai kingdom is a legit Chinese named zheng xin, as well as some of your viets dynasties founders have han Chinese bloodline, so Thailand is ruled by Chinese all along? And is Vietnam ruled by Chinese until the French came to colonize viets?

Pardon my ignorance, does ANY TREATY specified SCS island belong to Vietnam? Don't try to dodge my question. And isn't sans Francisco conference was held while china was absent, I don't think such conference result is credible when any claimant on disputed territory is absent from it.

 

[cochine]

You are really FUNNY.
Kublai Khan became Chinese to rule China and he ruled from ancient Beijing.
The normal folks couldn't be bothered who is ruling them as long as the emperor is one of them, among the many different ethnic Chinese and is able to provide peace, food and prosperitiy.
In the distant future, an ethnic Japanese Chinese could become president of China.

Did the Chinese convert to Vietnamese to rule Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
Did the French convert to Vietnamese to rule Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
Did the USA become Vietnamese to control Vietnam, and moved its capital to Vietnam ?
See the Difference ? Maybe not as you got problem processing logic.
.

I don't get your logic at all, on one hand you stated british monarch are England native dynasty (the truth is Britain had been invaded, conquered and ruled by waves after waves of foreign dynasties since roman conquest of Britannia, so many to the point I cant count how many of them), on the other hand you said british monarch aren't separated from german monarch... so tell me my friend, is good old Eliz native of England or native of german? Is it the british ruling germans or Germans ruling british?

Kublai doesn't take any order from the golden horde khagan, this means that yuan empire is independent and was not a part of mongol empire. FYI, The founder of thai kingdom is a legit Chinese named zheng xin, as well as some of your viets dynasties founders have han Chinese bloodline, so Thailand is ruled by Chinese all along? And is Vietnam ruled by Chinese until the French came to colonize viets?

Pardon my ignorance, does ANY TREATY specified SCS island belong to Vietnam? Don't try to dodge my question. And isn't sans Francisco conference was held while china was absent, I don't think such conference result is credible when any claimant on disputed territory is absent from it.

What you said above ís propaganda òf China about China hístory. About that Kublai Khan had really conquered China. It was the first foreign dynasty (yuan) to rule all of China and lasted until 1368. In addition to Emperor of China, Kublai Khan also claimed the title of Great Khan, supreme over the other successor khanates: the Chagatai, the Golden Horde, and the Ilkhanate. As such, the Yuan Dynasty is created by Kublai was also as the Empire of the Great Khan. Kublai had taken the power in China with force and invaded in to Chia territory and won on chinese native people.

There history of Thailand and Vietnam is different, this is the internal matter of Thái and Việt people, Hua Yue native ethnic persons in Thailand and Vietnam, so they had their Thái and Việt citizenship first, before they could taken power in Thailand and Vietnam Kingdoms. Trần dynasty Vietnam is origin from Baiyue, no Han, has fought counter China Yuan invasion many time, to protect Independence of Vietnam. The matter is totally different to Yuan Mongolian in China.

About the disputation in SCS, China has fabricated about the history that China has discovered SCS by Zheng He voyage, in fact there was "Cohine (Vietnamese) Ocean" is stating clearly in China's map.

And also importance point of San Francisco Treaty is that : Claim of China in 1948 with "nine dashed line" is rejected by general voting.

 

[terranMarine]

No matter how many times this monkey fabricating history, facts remain facts. We have scared them so much they told the Spanish to stop drilling oil

 

[sinait]

What you said above ís propaganda òf China about China hístory. About that Kublai Khan had really conquered China. It was the first foreign dynasty (yuan) to rule all of China and lasted until 1368. In addition to Emperor of China, Kublai Khan also claimed the title of Great Khan, supreme over the other successor khanates: the Chagatai, the Golden Horde, and the Ilkhanate. As such, the Yuan Dynasty is created by Kublai was also as the Empire of the Great Khan. Kublai had taken the power in China with force and invaded in to Chia territory and won on chinese native people.

There history of Thailand and Vietnam is different, this is the internal matter of Thái and Việt people, Hua Yue native ethnic persons in Thailand and Vietnam, so they had their Thái and Việt citizenship first, before they could taken power in Thailand and Vietnam Kingdoms. Trần dynasty Vietnam is origin from Baiyue, no Han, has fought counter China Yuan invasion many time, to protect Independence of Vietnam. The matter is totally different to Yuan Mongolian in China.

About the disputation in SCS, China has fabricated about the history that China has discovered SCS by Zheng He voyage, in fact there was "Cohine (Vietnamese) Ocean" is stating clearly in China's map.

And also importance point of San Francisco Treaty is that : Claim of China in 1948 with "nine dashed line" is rejected by general voting.

I have to give up on you.
Nobody is disputing the fact that Kublai Khan conquered China, but he had to rule as a Chinese emperor from China or else he will be kicked out in an unending war like the Japanese.
Don't keep flogging the dead horse !

According to your version of Vietnam, the following must be FAKE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing_in_Vietnam
Until the beginning of the 20th century, government and scholarly documents in Vietnam were written in classical Chinese (Vietnamese: cổ văn 古文 or văn ngôn 文言)
So the Chinese became Vietnamese and learned Viet script to rule Vietnam ?
Except there was no Viet script.
The French became Vietnamese and learned Viet script to rule Vietnam ?
The French moved their capital to Vietnam and ruled the French empire from Vietnam ?
I give up on you !
Bye.
.

 

[samsara]

I don't get your logic at all, on one hand you stated british monarch are England native dynasty (the truth is Britain had been invaded, conquered and ruled by waves after waves of foreign dynasties since roman conquest of Britannia, so many to the point I cant count how many of them), on the other hand you said british monarch aren't separated from german monarch... so tell me my friend, is good old Eliz native of England or native of german? Is it the british ruling germans or Germans ruling british?

Kublai doesn't take any order from the golden horde khagan, this means that yuan empire is independent and was not a part of mongol empire. FYI, The founder of thai kingdom is a legit Chinese named zheng xin, as well as some of your viets dynasties founders have han Chinese bloodline, so Thailand is ruled by Chinese all along? And is Vietnam ruled by Chinese until the French came to colonize viets?

Pardon my ignorance, does ANY TREATY specified SCS island belong to Vietnam? Don't try to dodge my question. And isn't sans Francisco conference was held while china was absent, I don't think such conference result is credible when any claimant on disputed territory is absent from it.

Thanks for your clue about the founder of Thai kingdom and Zheng Xin, here are some fascinating read resulted from a brief dig in the internet. If time allows, shall dig deeper the rain forest of the internet to learn more...

And history is indeed a bitch the more one digs the more new facts come out...
Due to time constraint I left out the part of Nguyễn Ánh or the Emperor Gia Long (1802-) (Thai; Phrachao Vietnam Ya Long), perhaps the other time I'll dig in this figure.


Some yield simply from a flash dig...

King Taksin and Thailand's Chinese roots | The Nation

By Pimpraphai Bisalputra - October 08, 2016 01:00

Special to The Nation

Behind the modern-day success story of the Thai-Chinese lies a saga of heroes who changed the course of history

Though their ancestors' importance to Siamese history can hardly be overstated, few ethnic Chinese in Thailand today can trace their ancestry beyond the Bangkok period.

Among these ancestors are the great heroes of THONBURI, who ousted the Burmese invaders and reclaimed AYUDHYA for Siam. Yet their descendants have largely disappeared without a trace.

For almost 250 years, KING TAKSIN, the man who FOUNDED the THONBURI KINGDOM after avenging Ayudhya's destruction by the Burmese in 1767, has been a revered household icon in Thailand.

Yet although more monuments and words have been lavished on Taksin than on many other Siamese kings, the life and times of this great ruler and his peerless comrades-in-arms remain shrouded in mystery.

Most deserving of mention are the legendary exploits of the stalwart fighters who fought shoulder to shoulder with the mercurial half-Chinese general Taksin, in his quest for supremacy and legitimacy over his rivals to the throne.

Humble beginnings to Ayudhya triumph

According to Zhen Rui, a Chinese officer sent from Canton to report on the fall of Ayudhya in 1768, King Taksin was born Tae Sin (Zheng Xin) of no renowned lineage in Ayudhya. His father Tae Yong was a Teochew immigrant from Chenghai County in Guangdong Province.

After reclaiming Ayudhya, King Taksin sent several tribute missions to China seeking royal investiture. In his letter to the Qianlong Emperor, Taksin called himself Zheng Zhao, using his Chinese clan name Zheng and Zhao for the Thai word “chao”, meaning ruler.

According to Zhen Rui's report to the Viceroy of Canton, Taksin had several Chinese aides, including Chen Lian, Chen Wu, Huang Qian, Su Si and Lan Lai, who was his finance minister.

In matching these names with the Thai chronicles, Chen Lian and Lan Lai were probably Phraya Phipit and Phraya Phichai respectively. These were the generals who commanded the king's Chinese troops that stormed the Burmese camp at Pho Sam Ton. The battle brought the final victory for Taksin at Ayudhya, before he moved the capital of Siam down to Thonburi, over the river from present-day Bangkok.

Following the collapse of Ayudhya, anarchy prevailed. Bandits and pirates roamed the forests and waterways. The economy and fertile lands had been laid waste by sustained warfare and the population of the Central Plain was depleted. Above all, famine threatened.

Taksin's immediate priority was to find food for the populace, curb banditry, piracy and restore law and order so that people could resume their livelihoods.

In 1769 an outbreak of famine and disease decimated the population of the emergent kingdom of Thonburi. French missionaries reported that more Siamese died from starvation that year than during the Burmese invasion.

In Thonburi, Catholic priest M Corre wrote that local residents, both Thai and Chinese, plundered abandoned temples. Meanwhile, concessions were being handed out to hunt for hidden treasure among the ruins of Ayudhya. A Chinese treasure hunter found three shiploads of gold at Wat Phutthai Sawan while others at Wat Pradu found five buried caches of silver. The precious metals were put back into circulation by the temple raiders, who also melted down numerous Buddha images looted from temples.

Building a kingdom

The once unitary state of Ayudhya had fragmented into a tapestry of fiefdoms.
The daunting task facing Taksin was to unify these competing and conflicting centres of power. His eventual success came thanks to personal courage, but also his shrewd economic instincts.

The strategy of controlling all the important Siamese ports in the gulf, along with a push to form alliances with regional warlords, contributed to Taksin's early military and economic success. A case in point was the story of Hao Yiang (Wu Rang), the patriarch of the Na Songkhla clan.

Hao Yiang, a native of Zhangzhou, arrived in Songkhla in 1750 at the age of 34. He was engaged in farming and fishing and by the time of King Taksin's Nakhon Si Thammarat campaign in 1769, he was already a prosperous man, known in Songkhla as the Great Elder.

Hao Yiang sought out Taksin to bestow on the king a gift of 50 boxes of tobacco. The meeting went well and Hao was granted the lucrative concession to collect bird's nests on Koh Si and Koh Ha.

His sons were sent to Thonburi for education and Hao visited the king to pay his obeisance in person every year. As the leader of the local community commanding substantial manpower, he was eventually appointed governor of Songkhla in 1775.

Seven successive members of the Na Songkhla clan succeeded Hao Yiang as governor till the death of Phraya Vichienkhiri (Chom na Songkhla) in 1901.

The new-found wealth generated by the interplay of Chinese, opportunism, China trade and mercantilism on Siam's eastern and southern frontiers helped King Taksin finance Thonburi's many wars. Serving the economic interests of the merchant class in turn fuelled the economic resurgence of the Siamese state.

My research of more than 10 years shows that, apart from the King's descendants, fewer than 10 modern-day Chinese clans can trace their ancestry back to the Thonburi era.

Pridi Banomyong among descendants

Among these, the most touching story came from the Teochew family of Pridi Banomyong, the seventh prime minister of Thailand, who traced his ancestry to Thonburi.

According to Pridi, who spent time living in exile in China, his forefather Chen Xing was in fact King Taksin's first cousin. Chen Xing's mother was a sister of Zheng Yong, Taksin's father. Driven by poverty, Chen Xing decided leave his wife and son in China and join his maternal uncle.

During the Thonburi-period wars, Chen Xing joined his cousin's regiment and subsequently died in the service of King Taksin. The family in China was not informed of his death until Taksin responded to his mother's enquiry about her missing son. Subsequently, King Taksin sent money as compensation to Chen Xing's family in China.

In 1814, Chen Xing's grandson Chen Chengyu, known in Thai as Nai Kok, emigrated to Siam and made his living selling Chinese and Thai sweets in Ayudhya. Nai Kok was the great grandfather of Pridi Banomyong, the founder of Thammasat University.

Known descendants of Taksin are quite numerous. Family names tracing their lineage to the king of Thonburi include Sinsuk, Indrayothin, Pongsin, Rungpairoj, Silanond, Indrakamhaeng and a branch of the Na Nakorn family. Those descended from King Taksin's daughters include Issarasena, Dharmasaroja, Noppavong, Supradit, Srithawat, Watanavong, Ratanakot, Panumas and Kanchanavichai.

Apart from the king's offspring the Teochew families that can trace their roots back to this period include the Sombatsiri and the Swasdibutra, who descended from Tan Teck Ngun and Lim Boon Ping respectively.

Two of the oldest Hokkien family tales are those of Su Xiang and Lim Riksh.

Su Xiang was a native of Zhangzhou, who came to live in Thonburi, where his son was born in 1776. His grandson made good and was appointed Luang Aphai Vanich (Chak) during the reign of King Rama III.

The Su clan (called So in Thai) later settled in Bangkok's Talad Noi district. Talad Noi has been the symbolic centre of Hokkien culture in Bangkok since its formation. The district is home to a shrine of the Hokkien deity Cho Sue Kong (Qing Shui Zu Shi), which also houses the Hokkien Association.

Members of the Su clan lived in adjoining houses clustered near the Cho Su Kong shrine. Su Xiang was a forefather of Korn Chatikavanij, former finance minister, and of two-time former prime minister Anand Panyarachun.

According to the Krairiksh's family history, their ancestor Lim Riksh was the Hokkien translator in King Taksin's final tribute mission to Canton. The May 1781 mission of 11 ships was headed by Phraya Sunthorn Aphai, who was to fall ill and die in Beijing.

By the time the ships arrived back in Thonburi, King Rama I had already ascended the throne. Lim Riksh later worked for Rama I's younger brother as the Phrakhlang of the Front Palace. During the reign of King Rama II, Lim Riksh's son Thong Chin was appointed Phraya Choduk Rachasretthi, sheriff of the Chinese community in Bangkok.

Cambodian campaign

The Chronicle of Bangkok tells us that Chin Kun, the Chinese patriarch of the Ratanakul family from the Mae Klong River, was counted among Rama I's loyal friends. Kun was a military commander in the service of the King of Thonburi with the rank of Phra Rachprasith. Rama I later appointed him Phraya Phrakhlang and under King Rama II Kun eventually rose to the rank of Chao Phraya Ratanathibeth, the Samuhanayok.

Of the two brave Chinese generals who attacked the Pho Sam Ton camp, finance minister Lan Lai (Phraya Phichai Kosa) featured prominently in the early days of the reign. His assignments included building fortifications at Phrapadaeng, Samut Sakhon and Samut Songkhram. In 1769 Phraya Phichai was sent to attack Battambang while Phraya Anuchitracha (Boonma) attacked Siem Reap.

The unsuccessful campaign was a prelude to the 1771 war in which King Taksin led troops to Cambodia himself. In this campaign, Phraya Phichai subdued Kampot and led its Cham governor Phraya Panglima to pledge his loyalty to Taksin in Phnom Penh. Curiously, the Cambodian campaign marks the last time Phraya Phichai is mentioned in historical records. He probably passed away soon after. So far none of his descendants has been traced.

The Chinese general who outlived the king was Chen Lian, known in the early days as Phraya Phipit. In 1770 when Ha Tien attacked Chantabun while Taksin was on campaign in Nakhon Si Thammarat, the king sent Chen Lian to reinforce the defence of Chantabun. Although Chantabun fell under the onslaught of Ha Tien's numerically superior forces, Phraya Phipit organised a successful counter-attack which eventually succeeded in forcing the invaders to withdraw.

In 1771 when Taksin attacked Ha Tien, Phraya Phipit commanded a fleet of 34 junks, 12 royal warships and four private ships with 1,431 men. When Taksin returned to Thonburi in 1772 he appointed Phraya Phipit (Chen Lian) as the Thai governor of Ha Tien with the new title of Phraya Rachasretthi-chin.

But peace did not last long. Shortly after, the city's former ruler Mac Thien Tu attacked and took back his domain from the Siamese army.

Chen Lian retreated to Kampot where newly subdued Cham governor Phraya Panglima helped with reinforcements. After three days the Chinese army of Chen Lian attacked and retook Ha Tien, massacring Mac Thien Tu's men on sight. Mac Thien Tu again fled to Vietnam.

A few months later, in February 1773, Mac Thien Tu sent a peace mission to Thonburi to negotiate the return of Ha Tien. King Taksin responded favourably and Chen Lian was recalled back to Thonburi. From a Burmese spy's map we learn that Phraya Rachasretthi-chin lived in a Teochew enclave just across the river from the king's palace.

After the death of King Taksin, he was responsible for effecting a smooth and peaceful relocation of the Teochew community to make way for the Grand Palace of the Chakri dynasty. Interestingly Chen Lian, the man who moved the Chinese out of the city and down to fields near Wat Sampheng – the present-day Chinatown – has faded from history, with no known ancestors.

However, at the end of his tumultuous life he stood vindicated. King Rama I reappointed Chen Lian as the governor of Ha Tien, the town he and his followers had bravely defended. Upon his death in 1787, Mac Thien Tu's son succeeded him as governor.

Pimpraphai Bisalputra is the co-author of “A HISTORY OF THE THAI-CHINESE”.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/King-Taksin-and-Thailands-Chinese-roots-30297153.html

Note:
Zheng Xin 郑信｜鄭信 - The King Taksin or official reference: Taksin the Great (Thai: สมเด็จพระเจ้าตากสินมหาราช, Somdet Phra Chao Taksin Maha Rat or the King of Thonburi.

Teochew in standard Chinese language (Mandarin) is 潮洲 Cháozhōu - Chaozhou or Teochew, a town near Guangdong, with famous cuisine; the Chaozhou dialect is a variant of Minnan dialect 闽南语 or Southern Min, a Sinitic language spoken in southern Fujian and surrounding areas, incl. some areas in the eastern Guangdong.

The book: A History Of The Thai-Chinese

The book cover and review of "A History Of The Thai-Chinese"
authored by Jeffery Sng and Pimpraphai Bisalputra (2015)​

Will buy this book some day to learn more


Rama I or Phra Phutthayotfa Chulalok, the founder of Rattanakosin Kingdom and the first monarch of the reigning Chakri dynasty of Siam (now Thailand) was the one of the most valuable generals of the King Taksin. Rama I was born from a Mon family, sharing lineage with the House of Sisowath where his father served in the royal court in the Kingdom of Ayutthaya, and had served King Taksin in wars against the Burmese Konbaung dynasty and helped him in the reunification of Siam. During this time he emerged as Siam's most powerful military leader. Thongduang was the first Somdet Chao Phraya, the highest rank the nobility could attain, equaled to that of royalty. In 1782, he took control of Siam and crowned himself as the monarch.

Vietnam and Cambodia
In 1784–1785, the last of the Nguyễn Lords, Nguyễn Ánh, convinced Rama I to give him forces to attack Vietnam, which was then under the control of the Tây Sơn brothers. However, the joint Nguyễn-Siam fleet was destroyed in the Battle of Rach Gam–Xoai Mut in the Mekong Delta region. Nguyễn's appeal for Siamese assistance enabled the Siamese to exert considerable political influence over Nguyễn's court. Mac Tu Sinh, the son of Mạc Thiên Tứ and his Siamese wife, was raised among the Siamese, and held office as the governor of Hà Tiên until his death in 1787. Ngo Ma, a general of Siamese descent, was appointed as its acting governor in Mac's place.[9] Nguyễn Ánh also took refuge in Siam at the King's court waiting for the opportunities to defeat Tây Sơn. These episodes demonstrated Rama I's willingness to extend Siamese power beyond his Kingdom.

In Cambodia, King Reamraja of Cambodia was deposed in 1779 and the throne was given to his son, the young Ang Eng. However, the pro-Vietnamese policies of certain Cambodian aristocrats under Ang Eng alarmed Rama I. As a result, Rama I had Ang Eng captured and deported to Bangkok, where he became Rama's adopted son to implant pro-Siamese sentiments on him. Rama I also imposed Chao Phraya Abhaya Bhubet as the Regent of Cambodia.

Nguyễn Ánh secretly left for Vietnam in 1787, leaving Rama I a note. Nguyen managed to recapture Saigon by 1788 and later ascended as Emperor Gia Long in 1802.[10] (Thai; Phrachao Vietnam Ya Long)

In 1794, upon Ang Eng's majority, Rama I reinstalled him as the Narairaja III of Cambodia. The area around Siemreap and Battambang was annexed by Siam, and were governed by Abhaya Bhubet. However, Rama I allowed these territories to be ruled in accordance with Cambodian traditions.

Above lines are excerpt from Wiki's page about Rama I.


@sinait , just a friendly light suggestion, please save your breath from enlightening @kecho... a kind of special persona who's capable to create its own reality as well as its own version of history in order to prop his version of stories and indeed there are plenty of people of this kind around the globe, the kind who will only grasp the power of might, not the words.
I'm quite pleased that China under Xi is far more assertive than his predecessors, as well as growing far stronger than a decade ago. The time has come for action, not simply words. Or words need to be backed by the real strength. I still wonder should China follow the footsteps of the Exceptional Nation, the United States of America, whereas the simple principle is widely applied -- "Might Is Right"? Time will divulge.
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[FlowerSummer]

What you said above ís propaganda òf China about China hístory. About that Kublai Khan had really conquered China. It was the first foreign dynasty (yuan) to rule all of China and lasted until 1368. In addition to Emperor of China, Kublai Khan also claimed the title of Great Khan, supreme over the other successor khanates: the Chagatai, the Golden Horde, and the Ilkhanate. As such, the Yuan Dynasty is created by Kublai was also as the Empire of the Great Khan. Kublai had taken the power in China with force and invaded in to Chia territory and won on chinese native people.

There history of Thailand and Vietnam is different, this is the internal matter of Thái and Việt people, Hua Yue native ethnic persons in Thailand and Vietnam, so they had their Thái and Việt citizenship first, before they could taken power in Thailand and Vietnam Kingdoms. Trần dynasty Vietnam is origin from Baiyue, no Han, has fought counter China Yuan invasion many time, to protect Independence of Vietnam. The matter is totally different to Yuan Mongolian in China.

About the disputation in SCS, China has fabricated about the history that China has discovered SCS by Zheng He voyage, in fact there was "Cohine (Vietnamese) Ocean" is stating clearly in China's map.

And also importance point of San Francisco Treaty is that : Claim of China in 1948 with "nine dashed line" is rejected by general voting.

LOL Kublai is foreigner but first thai king and many of viet kings are locals, wow the viet propaganda is strong LOL. Do you even know that Tang emperors claim the title khagan of heaven (天可汗) after they defeated the Turkic hordes? So is it china have the claim on all Turkic nations now eh?

Yuan was supreme over the other khanates? LOL! Kublai never control any of the others khanates, the mongol empire already gone when it fractured to 4 parts, and they are independent from each other. Otherwise, applying your logic, you viets are rule by china until the French came colonize you guys, because lots of viet kings are Chinese origin.

Your double standard really showing man, what difference between the history of china, Thailand and Vietnam rule by localized dynasty of foreign origin? Internal matter LOL, then yuan is also internal matter of china, and Kublai is a Mongolian ethnic Chinese. Kublai too have to identify himself as Chinese before he can claim the mandate of heaven and rule as a Chinese emperor.

And don't DODGE MY QUESTION ABOUT BRITISH MONARCH AND ANY TREATY STATED SCS ISLANDS BELONG TO VIETNAM, oh you cant, because all you have is just double standard POV and crappy history knowledge. So applying your logic, Britain is ruled by germans for centuries (so is viets because they colonize by french), and Vietnam is currently illegally occupying SCS islands because I do not recall any treaty stated SCS belongs to Vietnam.

LOL names doesn't implying ownership, Ming name SCS as cochine "ocean" is simply for ease to remember, not to mention Vietnam is rule by Ming China for decades before Ming pull out and grant viets limited freedom, albeit Vietnam is still a vassal state of china. To give you an example, the name new Zealand (Zeeland) originated from netherland, but british monarch is currently the head of state. While NZ is a part of british commonwealth, UK, Canada and Australia does not own new Zealand.

The most important point of san Francisco conference is, china did not participate this conference hence all "voting" results from this conference regarding china are illegal and will not be recognize by china. China will only recognize conference that china had participated. This san Francisco conference is just basically an earlier version of the SCS arbitration from just a while ago, illegal and nonsense.