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So how good is Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter? Analysis from RUSI think-tank’s Justin Bronk

Mirage 2000-5mk2 upgrade programme has been very successful. The first four upgraded Mirages delivered by HAL in July 2016 on top of two French upgraded Mirages.
8-10 being delivered by HAL a year



I doubt F-16 availibilty will be 80% since for USAF it is ~71%.
Also thanks to spareparts deal with Russia Su-30 availibilty increased to 65% by late 2016 ans is on track to increase to 75% soon.

Also IAF pilot shortage ia a total myth, out of 12015 required officers posts, IAF has 11, 971 officers which means it is at 99% of reauired strength.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAKegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1ibB7indfyayk0hon6ts-M
This is what I read on the news which leads me to think the M2K H is currently not being upgraded.
A
 
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This is where cruise missile come into play. It’s not hard to imagine why PAF would want to take out IAF’s airfields and air defense systems along the border region in the opening stages of the war. You don’t need IRBM for that.

I was moving the discussion beyond that point, there would ultimately be a need to take out Indian Air Force infrastructure deep within India.
 
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I am not an expert but i believe that in a war, you don't have the option of choosing.. i mean if a war breaks out, it won't be that you'll ask "Don't send heavy weight fighters, just send light weight against our light weight",.. JF 17 needs to be ready for any jet,. and have to be equipped with better ranged missile to make it more efficient in BVR combats
I would pick a light weight highly agile fighter over a heavy weight any day
 
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@!eon @CriticalThought

It was very unfortunate to see such type of behaviour on Forum. Let me be very straight with you without any offense that you are hereby served with 1 fraction warning initially and banned from Thread for 7 days though, reversed -tives only for this time which were not given unjustified but giving you another chance to correct yourself.

No matter what, no one is allowed to personally attack anyone on the forum nor to use unethical language neither permitted to insult any member or someone's family at all. Furthermore, Staff Members granted authority in different domains, uses their power as & when needed while having no other option hence, if anyone has any issue, can contact GHQ Section and discuss as such.

We are here to debate, discuss, share and gain knowledge from each other whereby we also moves on when the point comes as we do not agree with each other. One cannot influence his/her opinion upon others nor can force anyone to agree with him/her all the time. The beauty of a debate or discussion is where we present our knowledge, observations & analysis mixed with opinion while having the liberty to disagree too and same goes both ways.

Please, keep it friendly and peaceful environment as we expect for ourselves and agree to disagree in-case of any conflict in opinion, move on with respect for each other.

Regards,

Multiple ID rat is back

https://defence.pk/pdf/members/elite-general.188975/

Ban him and delete all posts.
 
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As an interesting aside: Nellis air defense aggressor squadron do not like the F-111 because we usually 'killed' them. :enjoy:
thought it will will be an off-topic question but still I want to know how ???
It sound really interesting that F-111 scoring kills against F-15 and F-16 is because of EW tactics ...??
 
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thought it will will be an off-topic question but still I want to know how ???
It sound really interesting that F-111 scoring kills against F-15 and F-16 is because of EW tactics ...??
Ahh...Wrong...But my bad...These guys...

http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/Article/284637/one-of-a-kind-squadron-trains-airmen-from-ground-up/

They field Soviet/Russian air defense missile batteries, and I mean FUNCTIONAL units. The missiles have been removed and only the radars remains. The 507th also travels to other units and provide similar training and simulations, but Nellis is where they have the full support and give the best training scenarios.

The F-111 have always been feared by the Soviets. At every arms negotiation, they wanted the F-111s out of England and we always refused. Soviet engineer Adolf Tolkachev who worked for US confirmed that fear from his smuggled technical documents detailing persistent Soviet shortcomings on how to deal with the F-111 at the technical level. And if they cannot deal with the jet at the technical level, they cannot counter it at the tactical level.

The F-111 with its 1960s era terrain following radar (TFR) and its airframe was just one of those near perfect combination. Kinda like the C-130 airframe that have been with us all these decades with no signs of retiring. Nellis is where the F-111 can go Mach and at low altitude with hard TF, it was extremely difficult for the 507th to counter. Often they lock the F-111 just right at the top of the bomb toss maneuver right before the theoretical release of 'the bomb', but more often the F-111 aircrew timed it just right and virtually release 'the bomb' so whatever hypothetical target beyond would have been nuclear wasted.

The F-111, despite it being more maneuverable than most people expect, would never dare to mix it up with the Aggressors jets. Our mission was to get past them and we did more than they expected.
 
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A H-H-H mission profile would work nicely while the aircraft are on CAP duties but once combat is initiated, all those tanks would be jettisoned to give the aircraft access to its full flight profile. This would drastically cut down that range, not to mention once engaged with the enemy, afterburners and aggressive maneuvering would take some toll on the internal fuel as well. Hence, a 500-600 combat radius might be very realistic in such a scenario.
Agreed with the highlighted part, I even think JF-17 in Defensive Counter Air Combat Area Patrol mission might patrol 400-500 KM around the designated area, this figure seem more practical as it gives flexibility to circle the area of responsibility 3-4 times within 3.5 hours duration (NOTE: its just ruff estimate might be wrong)

I think posters are misinterpreting the graphics attached by me in the my previous. I want to clear that by BASIC Range 1800 KM in the slide of the presentation of JF-17 in Dubai was never indicating the DCA-CAP of JF-17 the most that 1800 KM figure can indicate the maximum mission radius of JF-17 with 2 SRAAM+2 MRAAM in which it was suppose to go from point A (base) to point B (target area) and return to point A with some reserve fuel for 10-15 minutes
 
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Agreed with the highlighted part, I even think JF-17 in Defensive Counter Air Combat Area Patrol mission might patrol 400-500 KM around the designated area, this figure seem more practical as it gives flexibility to circle the area of responsibility 3-4 times within 3.5 hours duration (NOTE: its just ruff estimate might be wrong)

Hi,

I have written many a times---and seems like most people have not read it---.

The JF17 serves the Pilot thru an OXYGEN BOTTLE---and not thru a self generating oxygen unit---.

The oxygen bottle has a limited usage time---possibly less than 2 HOURS---or maybe a little bit more.

Ahh...Wrong...But my bad...These guys...

http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/Article/284637/one-of-a-kind-squadron-trains-airmen-from-ground-up/

They field Soviet/Russian air defense missile batteries, and I mean FUNCTIONAL units. The missiles have been removed and only the radars remains. The 507th also travels to other units and provide similar training and simulations, but Nellis is where they have the full support and give the best training scenarios.

The F-111 have always been feared by the Soviets. At every arms negotiation, they wanted the F-111s out of England and we always refused. Soviet engineer Adolf Tolkachev who worked for US confirmed that fear from his smuggled technical documents detailing persistent Soviet shortcomings on how to deal with the F-111 at the technical level. And if they cannot deal with the jet at the technical level, they cannot counter it at the tactical level.

The F-111 with its 1960s era terrain following radar (TFR) and its airframe was just one of those near perfect combination. Kinda like the C-130 airframe that have been with us all these decades with no signs of retiring. Nellis is where the F-111 can go Mach and at low altitude with hard TF, it was extremely difficult for the 507th to counter. Often they lock the F-111 just right at the top of the bomb toss maneuver right before the theoretical release of 'the bomb', but more often the F-111 aircrew timed it just right and virtually release 'the bomb' so whatever hypothetical target beyond would have been nuclear wasted.

The F-111, despite it being more maneuverable than most people expect, would never dare to mix it up with the Aggressors jets. Our mission was to get past them and we did more than they expected.


Hi,

Well for Pakistani superstars---the F111 is a USELESS aircraft---because it cannot do dogfights---it cannot do 9 G's and cannot protect itself when it is on strike missions---.

Hi MK,

To fly high and fast with fuel, combat load, you will fly higher and faster depending on a very large number of parameters. We could try to look at a few. One for example is the engine thrust available on the JF-17. Compare that to the thrust available on a MKI or even an F-16. And you may find an issue.

To fly high and fast, drag is another important factor, as are certain aerodynamic characteristics such as wing loading, which would greatly impact your ability to maneuver effectively at altitude.

If everyone would build a competent modern air superiority platform with a single RD-33 (RD-93), the world of aircombat would be very simple and all these high powered aircraft that cost so much more, would be redundant in many ways.

Imagine the scenario of "shoot and scoot" as was being discussed. 4 Su-30MKI enter Pakistani airspace and is confronted with 4 JF-17s. The MKI are higher, are faster. They fire 4 BVR missiles each at the Thunders, at greater range than the JF-17s can respond. Now the JF-17s are on the back foot and trying to evade a very large number of missiles coming at them.

Even if they manage to fire a few BVRs, these would be so far away and at such energy states that the MKI would be able to turn away, go on a race track, and come back if they chose, to fire of a few more BVRs (or if they have to go home, for whatever reason, maybe to play with their kids, they can just go home).

Now if they chose to come back after a racetrack circle to avoid the JF-17's bvr, they would find the JF-17s at a great disadvantage, possibly without BVR missiles to boot. The JF-17s would most likely scoot for base, and be replaced by another flight of JF-17s. Doing so would not be impossible but operationally difficult as all this would hapen in a matter of a minutes.

This means PAF has to have a much higher tempo of operations, or more aircraft at any given point. Or F-16s that can more or less match the MKI in such kinds of combat.

Or better yet a combination of F-16s and JF-17s, which is how the PAF possibly envisioned it. Such a strategy would essentially negate the IAF advantage.

Here are some other points against the JF-17's BVR capability:
1. It has lousy acceleration through the Mach. This is crucial in a BVR optimized fighter
B. For any combination of weapon baseline SSPK and range, the farther you shoot the more misses you will have. Most MRAAMs are at best, a 2 point missile and with only 2 onboard, any shot past NEZ (6-8nm = .85 SSPK, 10-12nm = .5SSPK, 12-15nm = .35 SSPK) (these numbers are for the AMRAAM, SD-10 is equivalent?)

Where you have an effective 12-15nm AIM-120 pole, that is poor. Where you while 35-40nm T3 or Meteor RamAAM, are more useful. MKI could potentially field such LRAAM a lot sooner than PAF.

And without having to burner your fuel reserve to nothing in getting supersonic to make the cutoff.

Hi,

So how high would the indian aircraft be flying and how high the JF17 be flying---.
 
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Hi,

I have written many a times---and seems like most people have not read it---.

The JF17 serves the Pilot thru an OXYGEN BOTTLE---and not thru a self generating oxygen unit---.

The oxygen bottle has a limited usage time---possibly less than 2 HOURS---or maybe a little bit more.




Hi,

Well for Pakistani superstars---the F111 is a USELESS aircraft---because it cannot do dogfights---it cannot do 9 G's and cannot protect itself when it is on strike missions---.



Hi,

So how high would the indian aircraft be flying and how high the JF17 be flying---.
Jft is very fortunate plane it changed everything since it's inception.
At first it was considere as a notched up copy of mig21. It's rivals were mig21 bison and LCA and was considered to replace F7 and mirages of vintage era in Pakistan's inventory.
Now it is a fighter whose main rivals are F16, SU30mki, etc. And is now considered to replace F16 in our inventory.
 
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Jft is very fortunate plane it changed everything since it's inception.
At first it was considere as a notched up copy of mig21. It's rivals were mig21 bison and LCA and was considered to replace F7 and mirages of vintage era in Pakistan's inventory.
Now it is a fighter whose main rivals are F16, SU30mki, etc. And is now considered to replace F16 in our inventory.

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---.

Jf17 might consider itself a rival of the SU30MKI---but the question is---does the SU30 consider the JF17 as a validated rival---.
 
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@MastanKhan There was an issue with the Block 1s flight time being limited due to no onboard oxygen generation system. Was this deficiency not addressed in Block II? If not, I hope it is certainly going be part of the upgrades with Block III.
 
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The oxygen bottle has a limited usage time---possibly less than 2 HOURS---or maybe a little bit more.
even the PAC website which is not updated since the roll-out of Blk-I is stating the duration of OXYGEN supply as 3 hours
upload_2018-2-28_0-8-52.png

http://www.pac.org.pk/jf-17
 
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wrong its complementing the F-16 fleet of PAF not replacing it

Even the USAF is going to be upgrading its F-16s to the Block 70 standard and keep them in service for another 20+ years. We won't be retiring or replacing them anytime soon.
 
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