Sky Views: Europe is not pulling its weight on defence

[Fenrir]

If I were to follow your biased logic then what should I think of Germany the one country which killed most of my French fellows in the last century ?

Biased logic? It's recent history. Go back 30 years to when the Eastern Bloc was still intact and what'd we see? Fast forward 30 years and the rules may have changed, but we're seeing the same game being played.

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland and all of the supporting elements deployed in them are anxious about Russia as it's an active and historic pest.

That's recent history... as in right now. 5 years ago Russia was sedated, not overly friendly, but making overtures. 5 years later and the situation's been reversed and it's now back to being its pesty self (just this year we had 5000 undocumented migrants come across our border via Russia. They're being an issue.).

Today's threat may be tomorrows friend, but today's threat is today's and it must be accounted for. Right now a more belligerent and assertive Russia is what's concerning the region and shoring up Europe's defense capabilities - logistics, readiness, R&D, equipment, manpower and funding - will dampen that going forwards. Right now Russia presents a problem for Finland, and Baltic nations and Balkans and other East European conclaves, and by extension the West of the continent too.

We should make Russians our allies and friends and not push them to become our enemy.

Thanks Gandhi, we'll let you get right on that. Oh, but when you do decide to stop the rhetoric and start actually doing something, please leave us out. We'll make friends with our friends on our own time.

Now if you're done giving me advice or a "history lesson" why don't you f*ck off back to wherever you crawled out from before I end up getting annoyed?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

f*ck

Wow ... did the ice melt ?

 

[mike2000 is back]

Well in this case you should really do what you advise to others and open an history book. History is complex and ironic sometimes. A country can be one day a friend and become an enemy another one. Last time I've checked Russia wng with France and the UK in WW1. Same thing during WW2 and If I were to follow your biased logic then what should I think of Germany the one country which killed most of my French fellows in the last century ?

I won't even talk of the UK a kingdom with whom we've been at war so many time during almost a millennium.

History should be there to recall us that Russia is a European country by essence. We should make Russians our allies and friends and not push them to become our enemy.

And to be back on the topic I think that to define defence spending by a % of the GDP is the worst way to do.

First the threat has to be identified an quantified at 5 years 10 years etc

Second we need to define the relevant power force needed to face that threat

Once that's done you can define your defence spending and schedule it properly.

Well you are right to some extent. However , what you fail to understand is that western European countries don't face the same threat from Russia the way eastern European countries do. Eastern European, Baltics and Scandinavian countries have along bitter history with Russia, as they have always fought battles with Russia and many of the have been under Russian occupation or colonies. So the way they view Russia is totally different from western European powers. Ask Ukrainians. Georgians, Poles etc and they will tell you the Russian threat is still very much real and constant in their neighbourhood. Which I think it's not an exaggeration. Far from it.
The difference is that France, Germany and Britain have had their fair share of battles for supremacy and colonial conquests of expansion in the past , but after WWII, we all came together under the E.U which ease all these tensions and facilitated rapprochement and trust. That doesn't exiss between Russia and it's small weak neighbours. Russia being a large power will always be seen as a belligerent and threat by its smaller weaker neighbours.
France , Britain and Germany have almost being equals during these past century as they have been big Industrialised powers for centuries, so it's easier for them to make peace and come to some sort of understanding than it is for Russia towards it's smaller neighbours. Since it's always more appealing for a big power to bully it's way towards it's smaller Weaker neighbours.

Some of the above facts is also the reason we know this E.U so called army will never work. Many E.U countries have different views, thread and ways of seeing things. Lol. So it's hard to see how French check soldiers will go fight Russia if an E.U eastern member country is attacked. Lol Or Spain going to war against Argentina if our Falkland islands territory is attacked again like before. lol Reason this E.U army stuff will NEVER EVER WORK. LOOL
AS FOR ARUSSIA being European and so automatically being an ally to us, tats another funny logic, since when does race determine alliances and interets between countries? Lol If that was the case then the west will never be allies with Japan or Korea today. Lol We will never have fought world wars for world domination among ourselves etc. Geo-politics is all about interests dude, not race.

 

[Louiq XIV]

Well you are right to some extent. However , what you fail to understand is that western European countries don't face the same threat from Russia the way eastern European countries do. Eastern European, Baltics and Scandinavian countries have along bitter history with Russia, as they have always fought battles with Russia and many of the have been under Russian occupation or colonies. So the way they view Russia is totally different from western European powers. Ask Ukrainians. Georgians, Poles etc and they will tell you the Russian threat is still very much real and constant in their neighbourhood. Which I think it's not an exaggeration. Far from it.

You see differences but I see analogies. Again, the history of Eastern European and Baltics countries with Russia is no worse our better than the history of France vs UK or Germany. It may be hard. It may hurt but we need to build a safe "european house" for our peoples and we need Russia to be part of it. We will never have a safe Europe if we consider Russia an enemy at our border.

Some of the above facts is also the reason we know this E.U so called army will never work. Many E.U countries have different views, thread and ways of seeing things. Lol. So it's hard to see how French check soldiers will go fight Russia if an E.U eastern member country is attacked.

On the contrary it is very easy to believe. Western European countries cannot let happen that kind of mess at less than 500km from them so it's a no brainer we would start to fight.

AS FOR ARUSSIA being European and so automatically being an ally to us, tats another funny logic, since when does race determine alliances and interets between countries? Lol If that was the case then the west will never be allies with Japan or Korea today. Lol We will never have fought world wars for world domination among ourselves etc. Geo-politics is all about interests dude, not race.

You're the one talking of race not me. I'm talking of culture : language, religion, food, architecture etc ... I'm talking of building a safe and prosperous area with a country that is the far east flavour of the European culture.

 

[Penguin]

THe non-US line is slightly flatter compared the to nato total, but not much. Non-US spending is way more stable though than NATO total and fluctuations coincide with Korean War, Vietnam war build up an draw down, the Reagan years buildup and the post CCCP-collapse drawdown, and the aftermath of 9/11.

Which shows US spending jumps and drops eratically, when it is in the US interest.

Even more evident in per capita

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/08/28/defense-spending-in-the-u-s-in-four-charts/

TEXT CORRECTION

The NON-US line is slightly flatter compared to that of the NATO TOTAL, but not much. Non-US spending is way more stable though than NATO TOTAL. Fluctuations in NATO total coincide with Korean War, Vietnam war build up an draw down, the Reagan years buildup and the post CCCP-collapse drawdown, and the aftermath of 9/11.Fluctiation in NON-US spending is a small break in the trendline following the CCCP-collapse.

Which shows it is US spending that jumps and drops eratically, typically when it is in the US interest.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sky-view...g-its-weight-on-defence.460844/#ixzz4Q74bYXfh

 

[mike2000 is back]

You see differences but I see analogies. Again, the history of Eastern European and Baltics countries with Russia is no worse our better than the history of France vs UK or Germany. It may be hard. It may hurt but we need to build a safe "european house" for our peoples and we need Russia to be part of it. We will never have a safe Europe if we consider Russia an enemy at our border.



On the contrary it is very easy to believe. Western European countries cannot let happen that kind of mess at less than 500km from them so it's a no brainer we would start to fight.


You're the one talking of race not me. I'm talking of culture : language, religion, food, architecture etc ... I'm talking of building a safe and prosperous area with a country that is the far east flavour of the European culture.

Nope, as I said before, you can't compare relations between U.K France and Germany with that of Russia and it's neighbours. Just like you can't compare them with that of China and it's east Asian neighbours like Japan . European powers have fought bloody battles between themselves for world domination and colonies in the past including WWII, but after the war they all came together and made peace creating a UNION called the E U through which they became united for a common cause. However , that doesn't exists between Russia or even China na and its Asian neighbours . These countries still haven't resolve their contentious WWII and colonial past. Reason there will always be tensions between them. Similarly they don't have any common union like the E.U through which they are united and share common values/interests in. So using Rance. Germany, Britains past wars and conflicts as comparison with Russia and it's small neighbours is null and void. The two are completely different and will remain so for a long time to come.

Obviously, everybody in the world wishes for peace nd prospity between countries, However as I have said several times on here , for politics is based on interests, not dreams and wishes. Else even U.S and China will be close allies. Same with China and Japan etc etc. Human greed is always present in such scenarios.
So the tension between Russia and it's Scandinavian, eastern European and Baltic neighbours will carry on for a long time, until Russia is one day weak enough not to pose any threat to these countries. Or there is one day a balance of power between them. Until then the stronger and larger power will keep setting the rules and dominating it's other neighbours. Simple as that. No amount of wishful thinking will change that. Plus to be honest, I don't blame Russia for invading and carving out its neighbours territories rom Georgia to Ukraine etc Even if I was in their position I too will probably do the same thing as long as I have the capabilities. As Russia is simply securing it's national interests , the only issue is that those countries at the receiving end don't see things the same way. Lol

Moreover, to be honest many western Eurean countries will also see things like eastern European countries if they were bordering Russia. Only difference is that western European countries are kind of abit far away from Russia so the threat perception will never be regarded the same way. Lol Reason during soviet Union era when the U.S.S.R borders stretch all the way to Germany, you saw western European countries considering Russia as an even bigger threat than Eastern European countries did. Lol. That's how things often play out anyway.

Biased logic? It's recent history. Go back 30 years to when the Eastern Bloc was still intact and what'd we see? Fast forward 30 years and the rules may have changed, but we're seeing the same game being played.

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland and all of the supporting elements deployed in them are anxious about Russia as it's an active and historic pest.

That's recent history... as in right now. 5 years ago Russia was sedated, not overly friendly, but making overtures. 5 years later and the situation's been reversed and it's now back to being its pesty self (just this year we had 5000 undocumented migrants come across our border via Russia. They're being an issue.).

Today's threat may be tomorrows friend, but today's threat is today's and it must be accounted for. Right now a more belligerent and assertive Russia is what's concerning the region and shoring up Europe's defense capabilities - logistics, readiness, R&D, equipment, manpower and funding - will dampen that going forwards. Right now Russia presents a problem for Finland, and Baltic nations and Balkans and other East European conclaves, and by extension the West of the continent too.



Thanks Gandhi, we'll let you get right on that. Oh, but when you do decide to stop the rhetoric and start actually doing something, please leave us out. We'll make friends with our friends on our own time.

Now if you're done giving me advice or a "history lesson" why don't you f*ck off back to wherever you crawled out from before I end up getting annoyed?

It's ok gorgeous lady, don't be so mad. I have never seen you get so pissed up on here before. Seems our French buddy did something unusual. If he ever dares any you again, report to me, I will deal with him accordingly. Can't allow gorgeous ladies to be about by such ungentlemanly Frenches.

We will always have your back anyway. Just like we did during WWII.
Nobody can mess with our Norwegian friends, since as maritime, northern European Allies, the UK and Norway share similar challenges. Long live British- Norwegian brotherhood.



UK and Norway agree new cooperation on Maritime Patrol Aircraft
Friday, Nov 11, 2016

The UK and Norway stepped up their defence relationship today, as Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon announced new cooperation on Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) and exercises.

Sir Michael, who visited Norway’s top military headquarters, close to the Arctic Circle on Thursday, announced that the UK and Norway would work closer on Maritime Patrol Aircraft cooperation, including in reducing costs and increasing operational effectiveness.

The UK announced that it would procure nine Boeing P8 MPA in last year’s Strategic Defence and Security Review. The new capability, which will be based in Scotland, will allow for enhanced situational awareness in key areas such as the North Atlantic, and will also further increase the protection of the UK’s nuclear deterrent and our two new aircraft carriers.

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon with his Norwegian counterpart, Ine Marie Eriksen Søreide outside Norway's Joint Headquarters, Bodø. Credit: Norwegian Armed Forces

Sir Michael also visited Norway’s Bodø Main Air Station, home of two F-16 squadrons and a squadron of Search and Rescue Sea King helicopters, where he signed a new agreement on host nation support for UK exercises in the country, further increasing the UK and Norway’s ability to exercise, train and operate together. Mr Fallon welcomed the fact that British armed forces undertake yearly winter training in Norway, particularly 3 Commando Brigade in Harstad and Evenes and elements of Joint Helicopter Command at Bardufoss.

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon said:

"Britain needs Maritime Patrol Aircraft to keep watch over the seas. As part of our £178 billion defence equipment programme, we’ve committed to new maritime patrol aircraft that are able to monitor threats to Britain and our armed forces.

By stepping up cooperation with Norway on maritime patrol, we will help keep Britain safer and more secure."

The Defence Secretary arrived in Norway following meetings with the Northern Group countries on Wednesday in Copenhagen, where he reaffirmed the UK’s commitment to European defence. As part of this, the Defence Secretary announced that 5 Battalion The Rifles would lead the UK’s battalion in Estonia next year, part of NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence in the East.

Work on the UK’s MPA programme is progressing well, including the investment on infrastructure in Lossiemouth in Scotland, where the planes will be based. Former armed forces personnel who previously served on UK Nimrod are also re-joining the RAF to help operate the future P-8s. 12 have recently re-joined and more will re-join in the future.

For more information, please visit: https://www.gov.uk/

 

[umair88]

It depends on the power which country has more, because the UK already has a military spend exceeding - just - the NATO requirement, unlike most NATO signatories, and any EU military would need roughly the same amount - actually significantly more to begin with. Integrating militaries is a very expensive operation

 

[Penguin]

Incidentally, this navy ship is a Dutch built M-frigate.

 

[jamal18]

Easiest way to equalize defence budgets is for the US to spend the same percentage as Europe.