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Should Pakistan get a licence for the SA Mokopa Anti-tank guided missile

Well the Chopper does have a decent offering for a country like Pakistan who does not have a Helicopter factory to get that chopper and also a Air to Ground integrated weapon in one go.

The problem I see is that the offer came too late as Chinese Z-10 and Turkish T-129 have made tremendous push for sale as well.

The South African chopper do look a decent platform for emerging nation like Pakistan

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Personally speaking on personal level I see investment in this platform more meaningful then the Super Cobra , which are over priced

But I find that chances for T-129 OR Z-10 are higher as we already have had trial for these Choppers but you never know we did had a MOU with South Africa recently
 
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Italian co. wins Turkish heli contract

By SELCAN HACAOGLU

ANKARA, Turkey

Italy's Agusta Aerospace on Friday won a major Turkish tender worth $2.7 billion to co-produce attack helicopters as Turkey sought to diversify resources from its usual supplier -- the United States.

For the first time since they began cooperating in arms sales, no U.S. companies bid for the contract because of strict Turkish regulations. The rules stipulate Turkey be given full access to the aircraft's specific software codes -- which the U.S. considers a security risk -- and a guarantee from the provider's government that there would be no political obstacles to the sale.

U.S. firms have been the main arms suppliers to Turkey, a key element of NATO's southern flank during the Cold War. Turkey, whose neighbors include Iran, Iraq, Syria and traditional rival Greece, has been eager to supply its large army, which is also dealing with a domestic Kurdish insurgency.

The contract is for the co-production of 30 Mangusta A-129 helicopters with an option for 20 more, Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul said. The Turkish model will be named T-129.

The only other company to be shortlisted in the tender was Denel of South Africa. Franco-German company Eurocopter and Kamov of Russia were eliminated earlier in the process.

Denel's Rooivalk helicopter was powered by an engine manufactured by France -- with whom Turkey suspended military relations in November in response to proposed French legislation that would criminalize denying that the mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I amounted to genocide.

Asked whether the use of a French engine in the South African model and the tensions with France over the Armenian bill negatively affected the selection process, Gonul said: "all aspects were evaluated," private Dogan news agency reported.

But Gonul said the main factor in the decision was the huge price difference, the state-run Anatolia news agency reported. He did not elaborate.

Turkey imposed new bidding rules for military contracts in 2005, after it canceled a 2004 tender when a deal for U.S. firm Bell Helicopter Textron's "King Cobra" -- a Turkish version of the AH-1Z Super Cobra used by U.S. Marines -- collapsed over price, technology transfer and licensing problems.

Turkey went through a low point in defense relations with Washington following its refusal to host U.S. troops for the invasion of Iraq in 2003. It has actively sought out other potential arms suppliers, making Turkey's business less attractive for U.S. companies.

The new rules also empower Turkey to substitute alternative, locally manufactured components such as weapon systems, the mission computer, avionics and electronic warfare suites, and require the supplier to integrate other systems or equipment built by Turkish companies.

Turkey's concerns over technological control of its weaponry increased after it faced arms blockades from several countries because of human rights problems in its fight against Kurdish guerrillas, while Washington demanded Turkish progress on human rights as a condition for arms sales.

Meanwhile, Turkish firm Otokar, which produces armored vehicles, won a tender of $500 million to develop a main battle tank prototype, private CNN-Turk television said. If successful, the firm could be granted the authority to produce tanks to replace Turkey's aging tanks.

Gonul expressed hope that his country would be allowed to produce upgraded F-16 warplanes under U.S. license. Turkey had assembled previous F-16 models under U.S. license.

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It could have been Rooivalk but Erdogan threw a fit at France which cost them and South Africa the deal.

Article also mentions issues with AH1Z which is a tad disheartening.

IMO the two are different kinds of missiles. Baktar Shikan is essentially a 2nd generation wire guided missile weighing 25 Kg with range of about 4 km and armour penetration up to 600mm. I don’t think Baktar shikan will be able penetrate armour of heavy tanks such as Arjun, Challanger or Leopard 2 except at very close range.

Mokopa on the other hand is far more powerful semi-active laser guided missile. It weighs 49.8 Kg has range of 10 km and can penetrate up to 1350 mm thick reactive armour.

Could be extremely potent if a "Brimstone" type variant was produced for use in COIN.
 
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Denel, I recall that the Rooivalk was in Turkeys attack helicopter competition but lost out. I seem to remember it was because of a supply issue with Eurocopter for engine components. Can you shed more light on this please?
Yes, that is correct - the french muzzled in trying to cut off parts supply even though the engines were now being completely licenced manufactured in south africa. That left a bad taste in everyone mouth at the time and we knew then Europeans considered us a threat and Turkish HQ was firmly trying to appease EU to get in - so net net it was a losing preposition. As usual geo-politics at their best. Similarly, we tried to market our IFVs, artillery same issue - but until US got a bloody nose in Iraq, they then dished out thousands of orders for the vehicles, and orders from elsewhere for JVs etc started to pour in.

I have been away from our industry for a while - gone into farming and academic life but i did hear they did start the upgrade phase I a few years back and successfully were deploying these machines out into DRC. A good friend is in the rooivalk program as a test pilot.
 
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Yes, that is correct - the french muzzled in trying to cut off parts supply even though the engines were now being completely licenced manufactured in south africa. That left a bad taste in everyone mouth at the time and we knew then Europeans considered us a threat and Turkish HQ was firmly trying to appease EU to get in - so net net it was a losing preposition. As usual geo-politics at their best. Similarly, we tried to market our IFVs, artillery same issue - but until US got a bloody nose in Iraq, they then dished out thousands of orders for the vehicles, and orders from elsewhere for JVs etc started to pour in.

I have been away from our industry for a while - gone into farming and academic life but i did hear they did start the upgrade phase I a few years back and successfully were deploying these machines out into DRC. A good friend is in the rooivalk program as a test pilot.


Valid point sometimes the weapon purchase is 90% political affiliation , however considering the platform looks pretty decent I only wished this chance had come a bit sooner still a pretty decent chopper , considering Pakistan flies the dusty 70's Cobra that every one seem to love
 
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Pakistan need other than COIN is a bomb truck to take out Indian Armour and i mean that with our Air Force support PAA should provide defense and take offensive to Indian armour
 
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Valid point sometimes the weapon purchase is 90% political affiliation , however considering the platform looks pretty decent I only wished this chance had come a bit sooner still a pretty decent chopper , considering Pakistan flies the dusty 70's Cobra that every one seem to love
Indeed, it was a very viable platform of its time; hopefully given how our industry is branching away from the clutches of a government quasi agencies, a lot of novel ideals are in pipeline. You dont know how depressed many of us were - this was a shining light, plus IFVs not to mention Lavi fighter which was in pipeline - Isreal canned it due to political pressure from the US; we landed up putting a lot of the technologies over into the cheetah program.
ah well. that was the past. A lot of good innovations you can make use of which are in the works right now.
 
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Well since Pakistan and South African bodies have signed a MOU this could be a positive sign , technically speaking the Rooivalk , platform is reasonable addition of such a platform will certainly make an impact specially on our western Frontier where we have more urgent need for patrolling and fast action

The proposed Technological upgrades would certainly bring it up to par with various technical platforms

Certainly don't see it becoming a Apache but would still be a quite a valuable machine for Protection of Military troops on ground.

The local production & joint production is a interesting proposal it will benefit Pakistan's Local Industry

I am liking the complete transfer of Technology and Joint development proposal

  • I want to get rid of every Cobra or any similar tech out of Pakistani Army as soon as possible, I personally hate our Cobra choppers

JF17 Thunder -> Takes care of our Fighter Jet Needs
Rooivalk (NG) -> Takes care of Heliocopter Serial Production

A logical person would already have signed a deal by now

T-129/ Z-10 still front runners but hey if Helicopter factor is on offer that give South Africans some advantage
 
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