waz
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Shias and Sunnis clash in Indian Kashmir
- Thread starter Gregor Clegane
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Joe Shearer
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Reference it.
Any post where you have not mentioned Lucknow?
@Joe Shearer Found a rather intriguing gentleman here, who talks of Lucknow in every few words. And all nonsense!! rather like the 7 lac guy Pakistani American
LOL.
No, no, you are mistaken. I do not have to look at the post you replied to know what or who you must be speaking about. It is @haviZsultan , a very gentle soul, who is from the Lucknow area and whose people migrated but who retains close connections, or so he believes, with his relatives and kinfolk in the area. He is always in a state of grave concern about the intimidation of these relatives and kinfolk and their browbeaten condition under kaffir rule. He must have read the Tilism e Hoshruba, because he keeps hoping that Lucknow and its purlieus will be magically transported through the skies and the intervening miles, like another East Pakistan, and deposited happily into the lap of dear Mother Pakistan. Think of Zulmat emerging as Zahir.
You will find that other citizens of Pakistan do not quite share his enthusiasm.
Do not be harsh with him. He is not one of those 12 year olds climbing on board to have a good time, fire off a few defiant posts and then vanish when the going gets too tough - a kind of Internet stone pelter.
Not he, poor soul.
You forget.
The security forces shot dead an HeM commander, not some innocent. A self-proclaimed terrorist, dressed in military garb and photographed a thousand times, armed and photographed a thousand times, killed in a gun battle.
There is no protest in Kargil.
jInnah was shia . but his funeral happened Sunni way !! so much so for equality and respect.
@Jf Thunder For your information and consideration please
Pakistan’s Sunni-Shia Violence and Its Links to the Middle East
Date: May 2, 2007
Speakers:
Khaled Ahmed , Pakistan Scholar, Woodrow Wilson Center , and Consulting Editor, The Friday Times and The Daily Times
Yitzhak Nakash , 2006-07 Carnegie Corporation Scholar and former Wilson Center Fellow
Event Summary
In today’s Middle East , the fault lines of conflict are increasingly sectarian. Iraq is aflame in Sunni-Shia Muslim violence; divisions along sectarian lines hamper political reconciliation in Lebanon ; and the Sunni Gulf states face restive Shia minorities. And yet while Shia-Sunni unrest has arguably become a defining element of Middle Eastern politics, it has also spread to Pakistan —a Sunni-Muslim majority nation whose Shia minority may constitute as much as 20 percent of the total population. Pakistanis are “in denial” about the sectarianism in their country, according to Khaled Ahmed , yet the reality is that thousands of Pakistani Shia have died in sectarian violence.
Ahmed, speaking at a May 2 Asia Program event cosponsored by the Middle East Program, argued that Pakistan is not a truly sectarian country; Sunnis and Shia largely “don’t hate each other” and most of the internecine violence is restricted to portions of some cities like Karachi and Quetta and in the provinces of Punjab and Northwest Frontier. Why, then, does a nonsectarian nation suffer sectarian strife? The answer, says Ahmed, is that Pakistan has become a “relocated battlefield” for the Sunni-Shia violence of the Middle East . Prior to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, Pakistan ‘s Shia minority was unresponsive to Iran ‘s radical Shia ideology. Instead, many Pakistani Shia clerics studied in the Iraqi Shia city of Najaf and developed views at variance with those of Iran ‘s revolutionary leader, the Ayatollah Khomeini. Yet Iran ‘s Shia-led revolution kindled a sectarian fervor that eventually spread to Pakistan . Pakistani Shias began training at the Iranian holy city of Qom . Pakistani authorities used jihadist militias in their proxy wars. And the seminaries that trained the jihadists began apostatizing through the issuing of fatwas. Later, questions arose as to whether Shias were responsible for the mysterious death of Pakistani leader Zia ul-Haq in 1988. Sectarianism has increased in Pakistan during the rule of Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Ahmed contended, because the Pakistani president is unable to control Pakistan ‘s “ungovernable spaces,” into which non-Pakistani sectarian-minded groups are entering and which may comprise as much as 60 percent of Pakistani territory.
Ahmed argued that some aspects of Pakistan ‘s national identity have stoked its sectarian sentiment. After 1947, Pakistani leaders identified “exemplary personalities of the past.” These people were anti-Hindu—yet also anti-Shia. In effect, the Pakistani state was “lionizing” sectarian personalities. Similarly, following independence, Pakistan ‘s flag changed from an all-green shade to one that featured a white patch next to the green, meant to denote Pakistan ‘s minority sects. Yet instead of representing national inclusion, this patch became a symbol of Pakistan ‘s exclusion of minorities. A constitutional amendment was passed in 1974 allowing minority communities to be “excludable,” and Pakistan ‘s parliament declared that followers of the Ahmediyya sect of Islam were non-Muslim.
Ahmed’s presentation underscored that Pakistan ‘s sectarian violence is part of a “transplanted war,” and that understanding this war requires a comprehension of sectarian divides across the Middle East . In his commentary, Yitzhak Nakash provided case studies of two different manifestations of sectarianism in the Middle East . In Iraq , the Sunni minority ruled over the Shia majority (and Kurdish minority) for 80 years until Saddam Hussein’s fall in 2003. The Shias’ resulting rise has reinforced sectarian struggle, which Nakash described as a political battle over the right to rule and how to define nationalism. Until the Iran-Iraq War, Iraqis—like Pakistanis—denied their sectarian problem, instead attributing it to the legacy of foreign rule. Conversely, in Lebanon , sectarianism has long been accepted as a “fact of life.” This attitude accounts for the willingness in Lebanon to establish political parties along sectarian lines. The Taif Accord of 1990 (which ended Lebanon’s civil war) codified what is known as the fragile “confessional” system, under which Lebanon’s 17 sects are organized along communal lines and governed by a pact arrived at by mutual agreement. Ultimately, Nakash averred, sectarian tensions have long existed in both Iraq and Lebanon —yet they have been exacerbated by external interventions.
http://fffp.org.pk/pakistans-sunni-shia-violence-and-its-links-to-the-middle-east/
https://www.ciaonet.org/attachments/21361/uploads
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/csas/PDF/7._Evolution_of_sectarianism_v29_no2_2014.pdf
http://tribune.com.pk/story/456283/pakistans-threat-within-the-sunni-shia-divide/
http://www.dawn.com/news/786738/time-for-shias-to-leave-pakistan
All sectarian and religious violence, anywhere, must be categorized as such. I agree with your post ....
Pakistan’s Sunni-Shia Violence and Its Links to the Middle East
Date: May 2, 2007
Speakers:
Khaled Ahmed , Pakistan Scholar, Woodrow Wilson Center , and Consulting Editor, The Friday Times and The Daily Times
Yitzhak Nakash , 2006-07 Carnegie Corporation Scholar and former Wilson Center Fellow
Event Summary
In today’s Middle East , the fault lines of conflict are increasingly sectarian. Iraq is aflame in Sunni-Shia Muslim violence; divisions along sectarian lines hamper political reconciliation in Lebanon ; and the Sunni Gulf states face restive Shia minorities. And yet while Shia-Sunni unrest has arguably become a defining element of Middle Eastern politics, it has also spread to Pakistan —a Sunni-Muslim majority nation whose Shia minority may constitute as much as 20 percent of the total population. Pakistanis are “in denial” about the sectarianism in their country, according to Khaled Ahmed , yet the reality is that thousands of Pakistani Shia have died in sectarian violence.
Ahmed, speaking at a May 2 Asia Program event cosponsored by the Middle East Program, argued that Pakistan is not a truly sectarian country; Sunnis and Shia largely “don’t hate each other” and most of the internecine violence is restricted to portions of some cities like Karachi and Quetta and in the provinces of Punjab and Northwest Frontier. Why, then, does a nonsectarian nation suffer sectarian strife? The answer, says Ahmed, is that Pakistan has become a “relocated battlefield” for the Sunni-Shia violence of the Middle East . Prior to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, Pakistan ‘s Shia minority was unresponsive to Iran ‘s radical Shia ideology. Instead, many Pakistani Shia clerics studied in the Iraqi Shia city of Najaf and developed views at variance with those of Iran ‘s revolutionary leader, the Ayatollah Khomeini. Yet Iran ‘s Shia-led revolution kindled a sectarian fervor that eventually spread to Pakistan . Pakistani Shias began training at the Iranian holy city of Qom . Pakistani authorities used jihadist militias in their proxy wars. And the seminaries that trained the jihadists began apostatizing through the issuing of fatwas. Later, questions arose as to whether Shias were responsible for the mysterious death of Pakistani leader Zia ul-Haq in 1988. Sectarianism has increased in Pakistan during the rule of Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Ahmed contended, because the Pakistani president is unable to control Pakistan ‘s “ungovernable spaces,” into which non-Pakistani sectarian-minded groups are entering and which may comprise as much as 60 percent of Pakistani territory.
Ahmed argued that some aspects of Pakistan ‘s national identity have stoked its sectarian sentiment. After 1947, Pakistani leaders identified “exemplary personalities of the past.” These people were anti-Hindu—yet also anti-Shia. In effect, the Pakistani state was “lionizing” sectarian personalities. Similarly, following independence, Pakistan ‘s flag changed from an all-green shade to one that featured a white patch next to the green, meant to denote Pakistan ‘s minority sects. Yet instead of representing national inclusion, this patch became a symbol of Pakistan ‘s exclusion of minorities. A constitutional amendment was passed in 1974 allowing minority communities to be “excludable,” and Pakistan ‘s parliament declared that followers of the Ahmediyya sect of Islam were non-Muslim.
Ahmed’s presentation underscored that Pakistan ‘s sectarian violence is part of a “transplanted war,” and that understanding this war requires a comprehension of sectarian divides across the Middle East . In his commentary, Yitzhak Nakash provided case studies of two different manifestations of sectarianism in the Middle East . In Iraq , the Sunni minority ruled over the Shia majority (and Kurdish minority) for 80 years until Saddam Hussein’s fall in 2003. The Shias’ resulting rise has reinforced sectarian struggle, which Nakash described as a political battle over the right to rule and how to define nationalism. Until the Iran-Iraq War, Iraqis—like Pakistanis—denied their sectarian problem, instead attributing it to the legacy of foreign rule. Conversely, in Lebanon , sectarianism has long been accepted as a “fact of life.” This attitude accounts for the willingness in Lebanon to establish political parties along sectarian lines. The Taif Accord of 1990 (which ended Lebanon’s civil war) codified what is known as the fragile “confessional” system, under which Lebanon’s 17 sects are organized along communal lines and governed by a pact arrived at by mutual agreement. Ultimately, Nakash averred, sectarian tensions have long existed in both Iraq and Lebanon —yet they have been exacerbated by external interventions.
http://fffp.org.pk/pakistans-sunni-shia-violence-and-its-links-to-the-middle-east/
https://www.ciaonet.org/attachments/21361/uploads
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/csas/PDF/7._Evolution_of_sectarianism_v29_no2_2014.pdf
http://tribune.com.pk/story/456283/pakistans-threat-within-the-sunni-shia-divide/
http://www.dawn.com/news/786738/time-for-shias-to-leave-pakistan
That's a terrorist assault not a clash....
All sectarian and religious violence, anywhere, must be categorized as such. I agree with your post ....
Last edited:
These problems have been going on for sometime, shia hatred is high there, they cannot even publicly celebrate festivals.
http://zeenews.india.com/news/jammu...on-muharram-procession-in-kashmir_812817.html
Something that the so called "secular media" will not make a big news about- Pandits, Shia's, Ahamadis etc
http://zeenews.india.com/news/jammu...on-muharram-procession-in-kashmir_812817.html
Something that the so called "secular media" will not make a big news about- Pandits, Shia's, Ahamadis etc
DesiGuy1403
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Can you imagine if this was done anywhere else in India?
The selective outrage of Indian intellectuals is baffling.
They cry for "minorities" but they are silent when minority Shia & Pandits are being massacred in Kashmir! It's almost as if these intellectuals are not actually pro-minority but pro a certain section of society!
@Jf Thunder refer post #34 above. Please collate
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/79
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-18738906
http://www.hudson.org/research/9867-the-ideologies-of-south-asian-jihadi-groups
http://www.kashmirnarrator.com/shia-sunni-tensions-kashmir-real-manufactured/
http://www.kashmirherald.com/main.php?t=OP&st=D&no=275
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/79
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-18738906
http://www.hudson.org/research/9867-the-ideologies-of-south-asian-jihadi-groups
http://www.kashmirnarrator.com/shia-sunni-tensions-kashmir-real-manufactured/
http://www.kashmirherald.com/main.php?t=OP&st=D&no=275
randomradio
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They are more anti-establishment than pro-whatever.
Jf Thunder
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okay
illusion8
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Poison has arrived in the valley, wahaabi, salaafi influence from across the LOC has brought along hatred and terrorism..The sunni there aren't a holy bunch, they have killed pundits and many earlier. ..but when mixed with high toxins like wahabism and salaafism - the hatred reaches another dimension.
shah1398
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And Sir plz zoom out a lil more and U would find how he landed on that path and what were circumstances which led him to be one.
Joe Shearer
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I agree that he had cause to be bitter, and I enormously regret the turn of events. But tell me - is that a good enough reason to wage war on the state? You will ask me what I would have done. I would have trained for the law and hunted down the killers and got them one by one.
I acknowledge the very valid point you made.
shah1398
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Joe Shearer
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I am unpleasantly surprised. This has never happened before.
Thorough Pro
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another lame attempt by sick Indians to blame the Indian government / Army/ Police violence on two Muslim sects
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