Sever ties with India, Pakistan tells Afghanistan

[INDIC]

I was going to say the same about Indian foreign diplomacy with regards to Pakistan

Your pipsqueak funny looking diplomats who look more like toilet-janitors can't stop arms sales to Pakistan; can't even get any "credit" she thinks she deserves on Afghanistan policy; can't get Pakistan to hand over people like Hafiz Saeed; failed miserably to stop Pakistani small arms and artillery + armor to Sri Lanka during the crushing of militant Tamil movement

And you talk about "getting what wanted"


Pipsqueaks

Keeping aside your delusions, Pakistan encounter with India is a bag full of failures, Be it losing Kashmir and Junagarh in 1947, to failed Operation Gibraltar in 1965 to 1971 surrender, or debacle in Siachin and Kargil. Even the Kashmir insurgency backfired at Pakistan as TTP, even 5500 airstrikes on average in 4 years could not dislodge the militants and sacrificing 45,000 Pakistanis.

while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America. I saw how your closing of supply route for America ended up as a failure.

 

[Vinod2070]

Don't confuse our convoluted and confusing messed up domestic politics with our foreign policy matters

It's an even bigger disaster. You run from one patron state to the next.

USA, Saudis, China... the list goes on. And the client relationship continues.

And yes even on foreign policy we've made mistakes - some correctable and some that would take time to correct. Has your foreign policy been genuinely successful? Yeah you got those marines back and they'll go home when Indian prisoners are swapped and instead languish in your prisons at state expense. Great deal. What about Sri Lanka?

There is no comparison at all. No point in discussing individual issues.

What you think as mistakes have been disasters.

And unfortunately you are lumbering from one to the next.

You should not compare yourself to India but to the Afghans across the Durand. That is more real in every sense.

I think india should learn to live at peace with her neighbours rather than engage in jingoistic banter. Don't you agree?

I agree.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Seems almost no different in India's case which is being used and as a "check" of sorts against China. Or so it's perceived at least.

In fact india won a few handsome concessions itself too in order for this function to work no?


Eg civilian nuclear deal under previous admin, etc

The difference being, India uses its diplomatic advantages (whatever they are) to further its (peaceful) national ends and the Indian people. Pakistan uses them to blackmail these same nations into inaction whilst to goes around causing whatever mayhem it likes (selling nuke tech, training terrorists etc) to the detriment of the planet as a whole and, to a large extent, Pakistan itself.

The reason for these differences is the fact that Pakistan is run by a small group of self-serving military men, India is a functioning democracy where the diplomatic cadre are entirely civilians and independent of any political affiliation. As such their primary interest is the well being of the Indian people, by and large.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

We almost lost Kashmir but Kashmiri freedom fighters and regular poorly equipped ones still managed to wrestle and retain what is now Azad Kashmir.

You can't claim you "won" Kashmir when the rebellion against the occupation forces (aka the sissies) has been going on off and on for the past several decades. Don't you know they "celebrate" your Independence Day with black flags, protests and bandhs. If you "won" it there'd be no need for mass graves, fake encounters, AFSPA etc and foreign journalists would have been allowed to cover the conflict (without India's fear of the truth and true ground realities being revealed)

As of late Pakistan hardly has any hands in the Kashmiri freedom struggle; not as much as I'd like though I'm not in charge.

As for "enmity" with America - we have major differences with the Obama admin but I don't see any future enmity with America per se. Relations were one hell of a lot worse in 2011 than they are now though we'll have to wait till 2014 to see the extent of our relationship. Some on both sides call for total cutoff in ties while most people suggest "reassessment" or a pragmatic approach. It's a bad relationship at times in which interests directly clashed (mild understatement) but I don't see any actual divorce; our trade with the US is still quite substantial. If/when they are declared enemies then we can reply here years from now and rekindle the discussion.

The difference being, India uses its diplomatic advantages (whatever they are) to further its (peaceful) national ends and the Indian people. Pakistan uses them to blackmail these same nations into inaction whilst to goes around causing whatever mayhem it likes (selling nuke tech, training terrorists etc) to the detriment of the planet as a whole and, to a large extent, Pakistan itself.

The reason for these differences is the fact that Pakistan is run by a small group of self-serving military men, India is a functioning democracy where the diplomatic cadre are entirely civilians and independent of any political affiliation. As such their primary interest is the well being of the Indian people, by and large.

On national security matters the military/MOD is taken into confidence on some issues. No big deal. Even in developed countries the intel/mil apparatus testify and give assessments or act based on assessments.

How do you come up with all of this garble NOW - when a civilian govt (the worst in our history) just completed its term and elections are just around the corner


Poorly timed statement buddy

 

[Areesh]

Keeping aside your delusions, Pakistan encounter with India is a bag full of failures, Be it losing Kashmir and Junagarh in 1947, to failed Operation Gibraltar in 1965 to 1971 surrender, or debacle in Siachin and Kargil. Even the Kashmir insurgency backfired at Pakistan as TTP, even 5500 airstrikes on average in 4 years could not dislodge the militants and sacrificing 45,000 Pakistanis.

while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America. I saw how your closing of supply route for America ended up as a failure.

The opposite is in fact true. You lost 45% of Kashmir to your two best friends. China and Pakistan.

while your strategic depth obsession in Afghanistan ended up Pakistan as an enemy of America.

This would be the first time America would be approving arms sales for its own enemy. Lol. What a loose use of words by Indians.

 

[Abingdonboy]

How do you come up with all of that when a civilian govt just completed its term and elections are around the corner


Badly timed statement

First time in,what, 66 years? Wow!


And what do we all think has happened to military masters who have been running the nation for the other 61 years? They are still there but they have now understood that the West isn't going to be happy been seen dealing with and supporting a dictatorship so they let "Mr ten percent" and his cronies be the "front men" for the govt whilst they keep the reigns.



Do you honestly expect anyone to believe these generals, who have amassed so much power of the decades, have just walked away and given the civilian establishment full authority, without even so much as a single reform or policy change? Please, don't take us for fools.

 

[INDIC]

The opposite is in fact true. You lost 45% of Kashmir to your two best friends. China and Pakistan.

But the Juglar veins(rivers) for which you attacked Kashmir in 47 and 65 is still with us even after losing East Pakistan.

This would be the first time America would be approving arms sales for its own enemy. Lol. What a loose use of words by Indians.

Because 2014 is still to come. Last time, before 1989 too they gave you lots of F-16 but after 1989 they gave you economic sanction.

 

[Abingdonboy]

On national security matters the military/MOD is taken into confidence on some issues. No big deal. Even in developed countries the intel/mil apparatus testify and give assessments or act based on assessments.

How do you come up with all of this garble NOW - when a civilian govt (the worst in our history) just completed its term and elections are just around the corner


Poorly timed statement buddy

There's taking into confidence and then there's being on puppet strings to their military masters as in the case of the GoP.



How does giving Iran, Libya and N.Korea meet the national aspirations of the Pakistani PEOPLE?

 

[Areesh]

But your Juglar veins(rivers) is still with us even after loosing half of your country.

And 35% of your atoot ang is with Pakistan. 10% is with China. 45% that you have might start boiling again. Who knows.

Because 2014 is still to come.

So now you are contradicting yourself. First USA and Pakistan were enemies but wait they are not. They need each other. So USA will support Pakistan. But they are enemies.

You are confused bachai.

Last time, before 1989 too they gave you lots of F-16 but after 1989 they gave you economic sanction.

Because of atomic program which has successfully completed and has stopped you to do something stupid after some drama happens in India.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

How does giving Iran, Libya and N.Korea meet the national aspirations of the Pakistani PEOPLE?

Well at least on Iran and Libya - that they are Muslim countries.

An individual (not the military) engaged in that type of conduct and added "liability" next to his title as national hero - it was a selfish act on his part.

On North Korea - same case (sold knowledge, models and components) not nuclear tech or materials

And in latter case it was a barter. At the time our missile program was in prenatal stages. They had something we wanted we had something they wanted

Looking to today - enlighten me on how Pakistan is a rogue state? And if we indeed are, it speaks volumes about countries that do trade with us, sell us weapons and invite us to attend Bonn, NATO, Davos, Anti Piracy or other such conferences

Isn't it?




P.s. who started the arms race in the first place

 

[INDIC]

And 35% of your atoot ang is with Pakistan. 10% is with China. 45% that you have might start boiling again. Who knows.



So now you are contradicting yourself. First USA and Pakistan were enemies but wait they are not. They need each other. So USA will support Pakistan. But they are enemies.

You are confused bachai.

But who don't want LOC as IB, unlike your FATA we are not bombing villages with our Airforce in Baramulla or Anantnag.

Because of atomic program which has successfully completed and has stopped you to do something stupid after some drama happens in India.

What was Pakistan economic condition in 1989 and right now. American are tolerating you because they need thd supply route evacation, they won't tolerate you after 2014. Even China reached to India over the Taliban getting control of Afghanistan and spillover in Xinjiang.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

First time in,what, 66 years? Wow!


And what do we all think has happened to military masters who have been running the nation for the other 61 years? They are still there but they have now understood that the West isn't going to be happy been seen dealing with and supporting a dictatorship so they let "Mr ten percent" and his cronies be the "front men" for the govt whilst they keep the reigns.



Do you honestly expect anyone to believe these generals, who have amassed so much power of the decades, have just walked away and given the civilian establishment full authority, without even so much as a single reform or policy change? Please, don't take us for fools.

Polls show that the public is more supportive of military than the culture of cronyist incompetence introduced by Zardari during the past 5 difficult years.

Your opinion means little here.

We hope for strong institutions as does the Army so that it can remain depoliticized.

As for completion of civilian term - better late than never; and that too despite blunder after blunder by PPP and their coalition govt.

The generals you talk about are war heros and they earned their rank. They didn't buy them nor did they grease any palms. Merit got them to where they are.

And as I said earlier - army has say in national security matters that affect Pakistans security. And it shall continue to be that way in the future as well, hopefully.

 

[Areesh]

But who don't want LOC as IB, unlike your FATA we are not bombing villages with our Airforce in Baramulla or Anantnag.

You want to convert LOC into IB. May be because you know you aren't going to get them back.

You love to bring this airforce thingy in every other thread. FATA is not Kashmir and you have used various other violations against civilians to counter insurgency in IOK. The death of 100+ kids of age 16-22 in the summer of 2010 is one of them.

What was Pakistan economic condition in 1989 and right now.

Pakistan economic condition is not just related to US sanctions. Pakistan survived very well with those sanctions.

American are tolerating you because they need thd supply route evacation, they won't tolerate you after 2014.

So Pakistan and USA are not enemies? Make your mind buddy. You switching sides on this.

Even China reached to India over the Taliban getting control of Afghanistan and spillover in Xinjiang.

Good for them. But at the same time they don't give a sh!t to India's concerns when it comes issues like their presence in construction activities in AJK And GB or their take over of Gawadar. Wonder why is that!!!

 

[Abingdonboy]

And if we indeed are, it speaks volumes about countries that do trade with us, sell us weapons and invite us to attend Bonn, NATO, Davos, Anti Piracy or other such conferences

Isn't it?

You are indeed right on this point sir. To serve their own ends the West have completely left the issue of Pakistan to one side.

 

[INDIC]

You want to convert LOC into IB. May be because you know you aren't going to get them back.

You love to bring this airforce thingy in every other thread. FATA is not Kashmir and you have used various other violations against civilians to counter insurgency in IOK. The death of 100+ kids of age 16-22 in the summer of 2010 is one of them.



Pakistan economic condition is not just related to US sanctions. Pakistan survived very well with those sanctions.



So Pakistan and USA are not enemies? Make your mind buddy. You switching sides on this.



Good for them. But at the same time they don't give a sh!t to India's concerns when it comes issues like their presence in construction activities in AJK And GB or their take over of Gawadar. Wonder why is that!!!

Conditions in Pakistani provinces of KPK, FATA and Balochistan are worse than Kashmir so are the casualties. Meanwhile you can watch this video about American perception of Pakistan.