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Serving Brigadier arrested for suspected links with Hizbut Tahrir

@ All-Green

i believe, even if Kiyani declares Khilafat (just assuming), HT will give their Bayt to him-

There's a history of installation of governments in Pakistan, we hear democratically elected but we all know that the current setup is cia Installed. What about Musharraf, who gave him the legitimacy, was he or other dictators elected by People of Pakistan. What about the governments who weren't allowed to complete their tenure in 90's.

Brother! all this talk of elected representatives looks good only in books whereas the reality is totally different- " jis ki laathi uski bhains"

I don't see any reason to ban a non violent entity, this only goes on to show that the 'Ruling Establishment (all the players) is scared that their viewpoint will gain popularity in the masses- Give them free hand, let them propagate their viewpoint and we will know in due course of time - whether their ideology lives or dies.
 
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@ All-Green

i believe, even if Kiyani declares Khilafat (just assuming), HT will give their Bayt to him-

There's a history of installation of governments in Pakistan, we hear democratically elected but we all know that the current setup is cia Installed. What about Musharraf, who gave him the legitimacy, was he or other dictators elected by People of Pakistan. What about the governments who weren't allowed to complete their tenure in 90's.

Brother! all this talk of elected representatives looks good only in books whereas the reality is totally different- " jis ki laathi uski bhains"

I don't see any reason to ban a non violent entity, this only goes on to show that the 'Ruling Establishment (all the players) is scared that their viewpoint will gain popularity in the masses- Give them free hand, let them propagate their viewpoint and we will know in due course of time - whether their ideology lives or dies.

What i am saying is that the net effect of the coups has been negative and we should no more give into the this temptation, whoever the beneficiary is this time around!
The coup culture has actually backfired and contributed to a very low standard of local politics in which everything is for sale and there is no long term plan since there is no long term stability.

What i am proposing is a peaceful and meaningful agenda for HT which can really work in the long run to garner support, asking others to install HT via strength of arms will not solve the problem and is not a peaceful transition.
If HT is installed via such means, it shall have the same legitimacy as those who are hailed CIA installed puppets.
It shall be obliged to the facilitators and shall not be truly principled or independent from influence of other forces.

HT should become a political force within the constitution and take the receptive Muslim nations forward slowly but surely, rather it deliberately chooses to be outside this process entirely and so is not willing to work hard and toil for a long time.
It seeks a quick fix and i doubt this shall work.
If the Muslims are demanding this, then will they not vote for HT if it operates within the electoral process of few of the Muslim countries?
Why no faith in this regards?

I think we should let the elected governments complete their tenure, without this we cannot evolve as a nation.
The bitter pill shall become more and more bitter if we encourage coups and give into such temptations.
Let us swallow the bitter pill for now and wait for our nation to evolve politically, hopefully.
 
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What i am saying is that the net effect of the coups has been negative and we should no more give into the this temptation, whoever the beneficiary is this time around!
The coup culture has actually backfired and contributed to a very low standard of local politics in which everything is for sale and there is no long term plan since there is no long term stability.

What i am proposing is a peaceful and meaningful agenda for HT which can really work in the long run to garner support, asking others to install HT via strength of arms will not solve the problem and is not a peaceful transition.
If HT is installed via such means, it shall have the same legitimacy as those who are hailed CIA installed puppets.
It shall be obliged to the facilitators and shall not be truly principled or independent from influence of other forces.

HT should become a political force within the constitution and take the receptive Muslim nations forward slowly but surely, rather it deliberately chooses to be outside this process entirely and so is not willing to work hard and toil for a long time.
It seeks a quick fix and i doubt this shall work.
If the Muslims are demanding this, then will they not vote for HT if it operates within the electoral process of few of the Muslim countries?
Why no faith in this regards?

I think we should let the elected governments complete their tenure, without this we cannot evolve as a nation.
The bitter pill shall become more and more bitter if we encourage coups and give into such temptations.
Let us swallow the bitter pill for now and wait for our nation to evolve politically, hopefully.

Peaceful & Meaningful agenda for HT- Brother! just like in my last post, i'm trying to understand, since when they have become a violent group. if they are violent than what label should be given to parties like MQM-ANP-PPP (the whole world knows the reality of killings in KHI). It's beyond my understanding,' just because a party doesn't recognize the secular democracy , we aren't ready to recognize them and those who do , have the licence to kill at will ????

There's nothing more meaningful than raising voice for the Islamic mode of governance. We happily & proudly discuss all forms of governance other than Khilafat, why?

The rotten democracy brings dacoits in Assemblies and the funny thing is, voter turn out ratio is no more than 25% and yet these useless people are called our representatives- Excuse me brother, they do not represent 80% of the Pakistani people, they represent the status quo which is sucking the blood of common man.

Participating in electoral process means giving legitimacy to this tried & tested rotten system, how can you expect them to go against their own ideology?

I do not understand how can a nation evolve politically by the process you described - i can only see a bigger joker in the form of Billy (bilawal bhutto) evolving thru such process.

History has proven that our system will never ever give us God fearing honest leadership through so called electoral process (as it is now in our country)- Democracy is no sacred cow and we have all the right to look for alternatives. China is an example, they have different system and doing well. The problem with us is that our ruling elite are slaves of white man and their thinking can't go beyond what the white man says-

The Status-Quo benefits both the masters & slaves else i see no reason in banning a non-violent party- I repeat, let them propagate their viewpoint freely and in due course of time we will learn whether their ideology dies or lives. Why the establishment is scared of HT's letters/leaflets ?
 
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There is a vaccum in Pakistan all sort of fundos toms , dicks and harries are gagging to fill it , they want control , hope the Pakistanis recover soon and give these fundos the little bird
 
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There is a vaccum in Pakistan all sort of fundos toms , dicks and harries are gagging to fill it , they want control , hope the Pakistanis recover soon and give these fundos the little bird

toms,dicks,harries---- altafs,nawazs,zardaris. yes i agree with you that these getting 20% of votes are trying to control Pakistan , the good thing is that all of them have miserably failed.
 
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Os it now - read below top see just how non-aligned:


The war within

By Saroop Ijaz
Published: June 28, 2011

The writer is a lawyer and partner at Ijaz and Ijaz Co in Lahore saroop.ijaz@tribune.com.pk

“He who battles monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster himself, and if you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you,” wrote Friedrich Nietzsche. The arrest of a serving brigadier and four majors for allegedly having links with banned religious outfit Hizbut Tahrir has been the cause of considerable commotion recently. There are widespread displays of feigned shock at the possibility of linkages between senior army officers and a violence-advocating religious organisation. The expression of horror at this nexus by a person of reasonable comprehension is incredulous. The Islamist tendencies of some in the Pakistan Army have been known and on display for a while now.

The genesis of this religious fervour in the armed forces in general, and the army in particular, is intuitively and easily traced to the Ziaul Haq era and the Afghan war. Admittedly, this is a major contributing factor to the radicalisation of the military, but it is by no means the sole cause. The motto of the Pakistan Army as changed by Ziaul Haq is now, “imaan, taqwa, jihad fi sabilillah” (faith, piety, holy war in the path of Allah). It is interesting to compare this incredibly intense motto with the original unassuming, almost placid, national motto “ittehad, yaqeen aur tanzeem” (unity, faith and discipline). The current motto of the army is blatantly prejudiced and is completely inappropriate as the motto of an army of a nation state. This may seem trivial semantic nitpicking, since who cares about the motto anyway. While that is true for the most part, the primary purpose of slogans and mottos is not to be acted upon, but rather to mould the narrative. And our narrative is quite solidly moulded now. As an example, the implication of the motto is that no non-Muslim is eligible to join the Pakistan Army, or at least join with intellectual honesty since it is theoretically impossible for him or her to live up to or agree with the motto. The Pakistan Army website defines the three components, imaan, taqwa and jihad fi sabilillah, in sufficient detail so as to remove any doubts or aspirations that an infidel may have about joining the army.

The website of Hizbut Tahrir states that its “objective is to resume the Islamic way of life by establishing an Islamic state that executes the systems of Islam”. One can easily mistake this as an excerpt from the Objectives Resolution of the Constitution of Pakistan. Now guess from where the line, “The mission and aim of the momin is martyrdom,” is taken. A reasonable supposition could be the al Qaeda or Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) manifesto. The guess could not be more wrong, since it is from the official website of the Pakistan Army. Hence, the potential succumbing of serving army officers to the propaganda of militant, violent religious-fascist organisations should not be surprising. To put it bluntly, the Pakistan Army has not been commissioned to fight the “holy war in the path of Allah,” but rather to protect the physical frontiers of Pakistan. The army is not being paid a vulgarly large proportion of the budget to pursue the selfish goal of personal salvation, but rather to guard our borders. The phrase “holy war in the path of Allah,” may be a very honourable phrase objectively but its use becomes very tenuous when both sides to a battle are fighting ostensibly in the same path. The academic discussion on precisely what constitutes jihad or not has its place amongst believers, but its place is certainly not the armed forces. The allusion then is that it is a battle over an issue of the interpretation of jihad within the same camp, obscuring the real conflict between civilisation and savagery. My argument is not against personal faith but rather for personal faith, ‘personal’ being the operative word. Furthermore, it is insulting to those of the armed forces who gallantly lay down their lives fighting terrorists and hate-mongers. Our brave soldiers are martyred while fighting a very real, tangible, temporal and existential war, and not in an abstract theological quarrel.

George Bush Jr was widely and rightly censured for making the unbelievably idiotic and hopelessly inexact parallel of the war on terror with the Crusades. Our nation and army are constantly guilty of a similar folly as a collective. It would be slightly unfair to single out the army for this exhibition of prejudice. A provincial chief justice some time ago remarked that only a good Muslim can be a good judge. The primary and, no doubt, unintended result was not a slur at Lord Dennings or Justice Antonin Scalia etc but at the impeccable Justice Rana Bhagwan Das.

Our television anchors and writers are particularly fond of using broad, monolith terms for those outside the fold of Islam. Appealing to Jinnah’s Pakistan may not prove very reassuring. The conflation of religious and national identity begins from Jinnah’s Pakistan, resulting in the fallacy of confusing being a good Muslim with being a good Pakistani. The absurdity extends to negative stereotyping, with the most obvious example being using the word ‘Hindu’ when intending to refer to an ‘Indian’. An example of another semantic battle that is continuing at the moment is the vehemently divergent views on the use of the word maulvi by the president while referring to Nawaz Sharif. The major point of debate is whether the president has desecrated the word maulvi by employing it in an apparently pejorative manner. The specifics of the petty contest are irrelevant; however, the particular term chosen for the inordinate amount of emphasis should be disturbing.

The detailed particulars of the involvement of serving army officers with militant organisations have not been divulged yet, and if past record is anything to go by, probably never will be. However, it is important to realise that every time we use exclusionary, discriminatory religious rhetoric, we are inching towards those very militant terrorists that we seek to fight.

pakistan ka matlb kiya???
 
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The army is non-aligned, links with any political or religious party are forbidden, especially with an outlawed organization that is considered a probable financier of terrorism. Secondly, there is no base in Islamabad, and Raymond Davis was not released by the Army, he wasn't even in the Army's custody, neither was his case being processed by a military court, the victim's relatives chose to take blood money, how does that relate to the army ?
Your argument is based on opinion(biased opinion) and not on facts.

no drones no nato allies?? no instructions 4 mr.qiyani??
 
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Brother, actually they do ask to be installed in government and this has been mentioned in their letters and even in their meetings. we can trust xerdari if u garanty he wud implement islam following prophet and khulafa e rashideen

You know that i am not an Islamophobic person and am actually a keen student of Islamic History, though i am not that bright.

The thing that bothers me is that our Mullahs have played dirty politics and gotten into government time and again through piggyback rides, while really spoiling the image of Islam and abusing it to such degrees that we have very polarized views towards political capacity of Islamic parties to deliver the goods.
The damage is severe since the intent of these parties is very questionable as proven by their actions, time and again! very true...hope the victims of this damage here understand,n trust h.t

If HT needs to change the perception and bridge the trust deficit then it cannot take such an approach. This approach of an Islamic coup has not really helped the Muslim world. We need a popular movement which at least exhausts all the political avenues available in the society which it wishes to lead towards betterment.
Let us say that instead of 2 minute noodle approach they undertake a much more hard, time consuming approach to create a political base and at least have representatives in the governments/assemblies/parliaments etc. of the various Muslim countries...this can bring real dividends to create an environment of trust and affiliation with the people.2 minute noodle?? its been 60+ years of strugle!! u can read y we dont participate in democracy sytem..it is also imposible to solve issues via such participation as the system it self is corrupt
If they stop the mantra of overthrowing government and giving "strength and Nusr to HT" (which clearly means a piggyback ride!!!) but instead start a legitimate political campaign in Muslim countries with the declared agenda to facilitate unification in Muslim world and meaningful engagements like common banking system and currency, defense pacts, common education system etc. to benefit all the member countries, this can work in my mind...will take time but will work.

I know we are all pissed at OIC but it cannot be that we include all Muslim countries in one room and expect miracles, their huge differences and disputes eventually let it all crumble.
HT should start with few countries where the people are not opposed to a unified Muslim block for defense and social/economic uplift.
It should not be a cry for removal of current system and government (which causes trust deficiency) but a logical and convincing proposal to create an EU like block where we can day by day increase our commonality based on challenges and possibilities.
Without a local government level presence (even if minor stake) in the initial targeted member countries, HT will not be able to help facilitate meaningful dialogue and agreements between the countries and it will be an OIC like situation.
Just because OIC flopped, it does not mean that this approach will flop.
It is difficult but will be much stronger and long term rather than a Taliban style rule which gains popularity and then deflates over time. the muslim gov in every country is selfish,money worshipers ..u think they will allow all this??

Now in Turkey no one could imagine that a party with many pro islamic leaders will get into power but the pro Islamic parties ran a lot of charities and through participation in the current election system and local politics, they created an image which appealed to a lot of Turks.
Now despite the Military actions against some of these parties, new ones are created and functioning while gradually gaining trust of the people.
Most of these parties are hardly 2 decades old but have made great contribution in bringing a change in Turkey.

Unlike our Mutahidda Majlis e Amal in which all the member parties were for sale to whoever gives them ministries...the pro Islamic Parties in Turkey created a far more decent image and bridged the trust deficit, despite having severe constitutional obstacle to overcome.
They have a long way to go but believe me, they are on the right track.
You need to plant a seed in society and then let it grow over the years.

In case of Pakistan we have yet to see any principled Islamic party, all the parties grab power when available through any corridor.
They have been part of the most pro US eras but on the other hand are severely anti US.
Their shameless hypocrisy and self centered politics has tarnished the image and concept of a political Islamic entity.

It is not impossible for HT to make inroads, but it cannot and must not be a forced imposition on the people and it certainly should not sound like a quick fix solution which wants to eliminate the national fiber of Muslims countries and build it anew.
Its proposal should sound like an EU like union which is practical and achievable in my mind and most importantly can be a long term stabilizing agent in the Muslim World.
If Muslims from Tunisia to Pakistan all want this, then i am sure HT has a realistic chance of getting into governments of these countries in 1 to 2 decades time, if it matures and appreciates the ground realities even then ur proposal can be forwarded n discussed with u if u want to.

bold one r answers
 
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Jihad is mandatory if a non Muslim country does not accept Islam?
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of course not bro!! but wen they reject living as dhimmi ,becoming part of islamic state!1 thats y i mentioned america living as dhimmis (nonmuslim citizens)
 
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no drones no nato allies?? no instructions 4 mr.qiyani??

The Airforce has already clarified that we will shoot down drones when ordered. No such order yet. Not coming in the near future either.
 
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The Airforce has already clarified that we will shoot down drones when ordered. No such order yet. Not coming in the near future either.

so it means forces not duin their job as no order from american puppets!!
 
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so it means forces not duin their job as no order from american puppets!!

That's where your guess comes in, I'm just saying that the forces say they can do it, just need an order..............
 
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I read in Nawa-e-Waqt that No links to HT were found with respect to Brig Ali khan.

couldnot find it anywhere else...
 
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I read in Nawa-e-Waqt that No links to HT were found with respect to Brig Ali khan.

couldnot find it anywhere else...

Then obviously, it is not a verified piece, otherwise every news paper would have it plastered all over their front page...........
 
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