Separation of Mosque and State

[Tipu7]

What have all these mentioned events to do with secularism?
Gulags - Communism
Holocaust -German Fascism
Algerian genocie - Colonialism
Vietnam - communism,dictatorship.
Bosnian genocide - Serbian Fascism
Ukrainian Famines - Stalin Fascism/communism
Ethnic cleansing in Africa - racism/fascism
Australia/Canada/US/Africa -Colonialism
Iraq - political
Yes the facts remain facts,it has nothing to do with secularism.

Aren't all these systems fall under the category of ''Secular states'' ................?

A State with No official Religion is a secular state. Isn't it? Rest is up to them to adopt what ever system they like.

 

[T-123456]

But Islam was oppressed under secularism in Turkiye.

Oppressed?
Then how come 90% of the population is Muslim,we had 82,363 mosques in 2013,is that oppression?
You really should do the research yourself,instead of listening to others( i think).

 

[Menace2Society]

Definitely needed. This ulema council and Islamic council and red mosque people need to be tried for treason.

Don't worry Pakistan isn't going to be handed over to non Muslims it is still the fort of Islam just stops moron mullahs with zero intellect and leadership ability having influence in political matters.

 

[BordoEnes]

And they have killed the most number of people in the world as well. Start with Hitler and move to Stalin and Pol Pot. Real peaceful lot!

Those are all vague/ridicilous arguments. Being peacefull is not exactly the strong point of islamism. You are comparing apples and oranges. Secularism is purelly the seperation of state and religion, it has nothing to do with facisme or communism. Secularism is not some ideology, its a basic political system. It has proven to be the best political neutral system so far, as the most advanced and developed countries in the world are secular in nature, while most islamic theocratic nations are underdeveloped and are suffering from religious extremism.

 

[Hamza913]

No. We should punish those who persecute minorities more, but we should still remain an Islamic country by law. In fact, I don't think we are Islamic enough in a lot of ways.

 

[Tipu7]

Every country & nation has its own requirement. If one thing is good for one nation then it does not mean its good for rest.

Questions like Should a State separate from Religion is like asking should Male earn money while Female stay at home or both should work? Just like every house & family have different set up of requirements so does nations.

As per Pakistan, Its deemed to be a religious state as it was born to be one. We did dual tragedy. First we put extremists in Mosques and corrupted the second link, then using justification of their extremism we are trying to enforce Secular system.

This Wahabism is not Pakistan's culture

You cannot compare a casual woman pic with a model.
Pakistan as it is has no culture as its core is ideological carved with religion. You will need to see Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, Baloch & Kashmiri culture separately.

Abaya, Scarf, Burka, Dupatta are different forms to serve same purpose.

 

[T-123456]

@Moonlight Knows a darn sight more than you do.... I guess you have not heard of Stalin, Hitler...Pol Pot, learn about Islam before you post your pathetic drivel

You should know who you are talking to before jumping up an down.
He is one of the few people on this forum who actually knows what he is talking about.
His knowledge about Islam is outstanding,excellent.

 

[Menace2Society]

I think there is no problem in People who follow religion to be in Government

• However , we need to ensure that Wahabism does not gets spread in Pakistan

We need reformation

1- The Wahabist mentality where Music is Haram , and Driving for Women is haram or Long hair is Harm , or any thing Of joy of living is harm need to "NOT BE IN PAKISTAN"

2- The Capital Punishment , has to be evaluated by Lawyers (As it is part of faith to modify punishment or law for governence of people by general consensus.

3. While I am Sunni I have some strong reservation on Wahabist destroying Islamic heritage sites world wide , this has to stop , at same time we need modesty in our culture with respect to "Culture" of visiting Shrines. Be Humble

4. The Black Robe culture we imported from Gulf states need to end and the caged Robe for women we imported from Afganistan also had to end.

5. Last but not least we need to stop with the Hypocracy , free loading by Mullas who do no work and just get donation form community to run Mosques like a Business

6. Strong Strong reservation of Designating Shia Muslims as negative force as defined by many Gulf states , I do not agree with this in principle


Pakistani Government & People really need to Go back to their own roots

• Education , which won us freedom in 1900
  
• Political Movement , positive social work and community work
  
• Focus on Hospitals and Improving the cities and culture of society we own now

Provided the Man in Government office believe in three Golden Rules

• Education - Social Work - Hospitals & Service

That is what we need!

Normal Pakistani culture

This Wahabism is not Pakistan's culture

Wahabism spread globally around 1800-1900 , Pakistan was generally shielded by it's effects as
we were part of British Empire and also it was generally not a practice in Pakistan to act like this

In last 20-30 Years the Pakistani community working in Wahabist countries are coming back to Pakistan with Imported views about dress code and this is further problometic due to Wahabist
Schools which were sponsored by Outside countries


Most of the Wahabist idealogies do not match what was generally acceptable in Society by Muslims

• There are various accounts people had long hair back in old time
• Also there is ample proof that the Rich Muslims enjoyed various clothes and fashion
• Also ample example of people in past culture who enjoyed Music instruments

Anyone who call himsself a "Mulwi" actually need to be educated Bachelors !!! from a Recognized university that Teaches the man on all aspect of religion and not focused on Wahabism

Those hideous table cloths and headscarves(not hideous) are NOT part of our culture. It never was and never will be. It sickens me when I see Pakistanis walking around in table cloths and headscarves, culturally well and truly lost.

Look at the Pakistanis of the 50s and 60s - that's how we should be.

 

[T-123456]

When Turkiye was a secular country, they were not even allowed to keep a copy of Quran with them.

Wow,really do you really believe that?
Lets ask @HAKIKAT ,he is a religious person.

 

[SQ8]

Democracy

Whatever it is being irrelevant.Believing without fully understanding something is in my opinion is hypocritical if not criminal. If you can read and write ,and are not burdened by someone oppressing your right to knowledge or you have unusually high commitments elswhere; unless you have the IQ of a donkey, it is imperative for you to try and get the most knowledge that you can especially one something you believe in.

 

[T-123456]

Aren't all these systems fall under the category of ''Secular states'' ................?

No they dont,Secularism is not only seperation of politics and religion,there is more to it.
Google secularism an find out.

A State with No official Religion is a secular state. Isn't it? Rest is up to them to adopt what ever system they like.

No,thats not how it works.
Communism has no religious freedom,freedom of expression,freedom of speech,no democracy etc.
Most of those countries with colonies were Christian countries(England/France/Italy/Spain/Portugal/the Netherlans/Belgium.
Fascist countries can be religious(Italy Mussolini) or no religion(Germany Hitler).

 

[Hyde]

Calling some one false flagger or athiest fundamentalist is not personal attack ?

You were quite a fair Mod before ?

It was started by you from the very first page of this thread when you were offending the feelings of pro-religion members. Please refrain as it will only lead to trouble

@ topic

I think I have always believed that State and Mosque should remain two separate entities or else governed by the state with strict checks and balances to ensure the Mosque is not used to provoke hate and sectarian violance. I always regarded myself as Secular but it doesn't mean extremist secular like my fellow Pakistanis become after learning the definition of secularism.

 

[Khanate]

Those are all vague/ridicilous arguments. Being peacefull is not exactly the strong point of islamism. You are comparing apples and oranges. Secularism is purelly the seperation of state and religion, it has nothing to do with facisme or communism. Secularism is not some ideology, its a basic political system. It has proven to be the best political neutral system so far, as the most advanced and developed countries in the world are secular in nature, while most islamic theocratic nations are underdeveloped and are suffering from religious extremism.

Classic apologist.

You equate development with secularism yet when you're faced with the horrors that developed countries have created in the form of WW1 and WW2, you quickly bury your head in the sand. Either don't make that argument, i.e., Secularism = Development, or if you do then look at the complete picture and not just the part that fits your narrative. There is absolutely nothing vague in my argument.

As for religious extremism, let me know when whatever you call secular countries get a grip on their nationalist and far-right loons. Til then stop pretending that extremism only occurs when religion is involved. The worst human oppression in the 20th century came at the hands of USSR. I bet those guys were super religious.

 

[T-123456]

extremist secular like my fellow Pakistanis become after learning the definition of secularism.

This is what i dont get in Pakistan,why become extremist secular(never heard of it before) and what does that mean ''extremist secular''?
What is different from a normal secular person?

 

[M. Sarmad]

It was started by you from the very first page of this thread when you were offending the feelings of pro-religion members. Please refrain as it will only lead to trouble

.

If stating plain facts offends someone, how's it my fault ?

How many in Pakistan have died because of Islamism, in recent years ? 80,000 ? How many more will have to die before we are "allowed" to even speak against it ?