Separating the fact from the fiction about Pakistan

[KS]

The point I'm making is, there is no point in arguing whether the international Al-Qaeda terrorists are being killed by drones or by the Pakistan Army. We can talk about this for a long time, but the important point is that they are there. Period.And they weren't there pre 9/11. They were pushed inside Pakistan from Afghanistan by the NATO Forces. Pakistan has not used these international Al-Qaeda terrorists for gaining leverage in other countries like Chechnya, Russia, Uzbekistan etc.

They were there, but just not making the trouble they are making now. Period.

Again, this thread isn't about the US or anyone else. This is specifically about Al-Qaeda.

Again, no one is talking about a good or bad Jihadi on this thread. No one is talking about the Taliban or local groups here; or India or Balochistan. The topic of this thread is about the Al-Qaeda, so can we just stick to it please? If you want to talk about the Taliban, I'll gladly talk to you about it on some other thread, not this one. No need to diverge from the topic at hand. So can we just stick to the topic? Comprendo?

Ofcourse Jihadi is just a jihadi. Al-Qaeda,313 brigades,Afg Taliban, Pak Taliban etc are all different heads with the same body, with the same idealogy, with the same training grounds and at many times with the same fighters as well. Cutting off one head means nilch when the body is still there.

And going by the tone in your post, I guess even educated Pakistanis have still not understood it or are willing to turn a blind eye to it. Good Luck, if it may save your country.

 

[iPhone]

Killed with no Pak Army action ? Dont give the example of Drones which has nothing to do with Pakistan or in other words, the usage of which is not decided by Pakistan.

/B]

Why can't he give example of drones? In a drone attack in n.waziristan chechen, Somalia, German terrorists get killed, what does that mean? That There are foreign fighters there. Which you claim are none. When asked for proof of your claim you stubbornly want proof of their presence in that area.

When mentioned their death tolls almost daily, you ask for drone strikes not to be counted.
What nonsense is this. Youve derailed this thread enough. The guy is talking about isolating violent extremists from local groups and you're harping on about protecting jihadi groups. You guys have given a new meaning to the saying, "bhains k agay been bajana."

 

[53fd]

Ofcourse Jihadi is a jihadi. Al-Qaeda,313 brigades,Afg Taliban, Pak Taliban are all different heads with the same body, with the same idealogy, with the same training grounds and at many times with the same fighters as well. Cutting off one head means nilch when the body is still there.

This is where you are wrong. While the Afghan Taliban & TTP are extremist terrorists, they are very local groups, that do not have the Islamist globalist agenda that the Al-Qaeda have, which makes Al-Qaeda much more of a threat. They are ideologically different as well: the Taliban is predominantly Deobandi, whereas the Al-Qaeda are Salafis. This is the same mistake the US made on 9/11 as well, not identifying the differences between the Al-Qaeda & the Taliban, but finally they have learned that. As long as the Al-Qaeda safe havens in Kunar & Nuristan are intact, hence the network will remain intact. Al-Qaeda fighters have always been in Afghanistan since its inception, & they only came into Pakistan's tribal areas post 9/11. I get the feeling that you're just repeating everything you've already said, & this discussion is clearly not getting anywhere as you don't want to stick to the topic of this thread: Al-Qaeda.

 

[KS]

Why can't he give example of drones? In a drone attack in n.waziristan chechen, Somalia, German terrorists get killed, what does that mean? That There are foreign fighters there. Which you claim are none. When asked for proof of your claim you stubbornly want proof of their presence in that area.

Go through the posts before huffing and puffing. I am saying most of the foreigners were evicted when the Pak Govt signed the waziristan accords with Hafiz Gul Bahadur in NW and Maulvi Nazir in SW. (Google them if you don't know). Some are still there but most of them are Afghans and Pak tribesmen indulging in cross border terrorism in Afg.

When mentioned their death tolls almost daily, you ask for drone strikes not to be counted.
What nonsense is this. Youve derailed this thread enough. The guy is talking about isolating violent extremists from local groups and you're harping on about protecting jihadi groups. You guys have given a new meaning to the saying, "bhains k agay been bajana."

If you know English read this line - Hence, in my opinion, it is imperative not to break ties with these local groups, & come up with a solution that doesn't undermine Pakistan. .

I am just saying the heroes of today can soon become the villains of tomorrow and a prime example is Ilyas Kashmiri. Ofcourse you don't want to accept that, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth.

 

[KS]

This is where you are wrong. While the Afghan Taliban & TTP are extremist terrorists, they are very local groups, that do not have the Islamist globalist agenda that the Al-Qaeda have, which makes Al-Qaeda much more of a threat. They are ideologically different as well: the Taliban is predominantly Deobandi, whereas the Al-Qaeda are Salafis. This is the same mistake the US made on 9/11 as well, not identifying the differences between the Al-Qaeda & the Taliban, but finally they have learned that. As long as the Al-Qaeda safe havens in Kunar & Nuristan are intact, hence the network will remain intact. Al-Qaeda fighters have always been in Afghanistan since its inception, & they only came into Pakistan's tribal areas post 9/11. I get the feeling that you're just repeating everything you've already said, & this discussion is clearly not getting anywhere as you don't want to stick to the topic of this thread: Al-Qaeda.

Fine just keep harping on the supposed differences between the groups while turning a blind eye towards the similarities between them which far outweigh the differences. There can be no specific discussion on Al-Qaeda alone because they are all interconnected at various levels and not different verticals (in a management parlance) for which there is no better example than Kashmiri.

Also Kunar and Nuristan are NOT Al-Qaeda holds. The fighters are as indigenous as indigenous can get. If I am not wrong most of them are fighters of Mullaz Fazlullah who was displaced from Swat.

As I said Good Luck if you are still unwilling to learn from your 20 years of mistakes and rectify them.

 

[iPhone]

He keeps talking about the crux of the argument, the crux of the argument.
Here's the crux of the argument. Don't waste time going back and forth with Indians, no offense, cuz they're not here to understand but rather argue over and over and accuse. Using their limited knowledge and myopic view of our western border.

You talk about isolating the extremists and violent groups from local pashtoon groups, Indians will understand it as Pak trying to protect parts of extremist groups to be used against...... whoever. This is how they see it and it won't change.

Ground realities are more familiar to us as whatever is happening is happening in our country and in our backyard. Remember when Pakistanis were accused of making distinctions between good and bad taliban. And that US and afghan and NATO forces treat all taliban groups the same.

And look at now the deals being brokered with taliban of Afghanistan by USG. And reports even Karzai is being kept out of the loop, let alone Pakistan.

 

[majesticpankaj]

The crux of the article is--- before 2000 there was no bad terrorists but had only good terrorist and now after joining WoT we have the problem of bad terrorist

 

[KS]

He keeps talking about the crux of the argument, the crux of the argument.
Here's the crux of the argument. Don't waste time going back and forth with Indians, no offense, cuz they're not here to understand but rather argue over and over and accuse. Using their limited knowledge and myopic view of our western border.

You talk about isolating the extremists and violent groups from local pashtoon groups, Indians will understand it as Pak trying to protect parts of extremist groups to be used against...... whoever. This is how they see it and it won't change.

Ground realities are more familiar to us as whatever is happening is happening in our country and in our backyard. Remember when Pakistanis were accused of making distinctions between good and bad taliban. And that US and afghan and NATO forces treat all taliban groups the same.

And look at now the deals being brokered with taliban of Afghanistan by USG. And reports even Karzai is being kept out of the loop, let alone Pakistan.

Fine good luck with this differentiation then because bombs are exploding in Pakistan and not in India.

The crux of the article is--- before 2000 there was no bad terrorists but had only good terrorist and now after joining WoT we have the problem of bad terrorist

Abe leave it yaara.

They (pakistanis) don't want to learn from their mistakes are ready to suffer (though both of them are happily sitting in US). Why bother ?

 

[53fd]

Fine just keep harping on the supposed differences between the groups while turning a blind eye towards the similarities between them which far outweigh the differences. There can be no specific discussion on Al-Qaeda alone because they are all interconnected and not different verticals (in a management parlance) for which there is no better example than Kashmiri.

As I said Good Luck if you are still unwilling to learn from your 20 years of mistakes and rectify them.

Are bhai, who said there are no similarities? There are more similarities than differences. But that is not the issue being discussed on this thread. Why is that so hard to understand for you?

Also Kunar and Nuristan are NOT Al-Qaeda holds. The fighters are as indigenous as indigenous can get. If I am not wrong most of them are fighters of Mullaz Fazlullah who was displaced from Swat.

Mullah Fazlullah is only a small part of the people that get refuge in Afghanistan. Qari Zia Rehman, head of Al-Qaeda operations in the Kunar province, & the Bajaur Agency in Pakistan; gets his refuge in Afghanistan. There are many such other examples, most notably of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) that is a threat to Uzbekistan, Tajikistan & Pakistan; that operates from Kunar province as well. So I don't know what you are talking about. I hope you're not arguing for the sake for arguing:

Nuristan is al-Qaeda and Taliban central: (quoted from the article)

BBC News - Afghan-Pakistan border like 'house without door'

Afghan intelligence officials in the province of Nuristan have accused the central government and Nato forces in particular of ignoring insurgents there and in other strategically important areas close to the Pakistani border.

They say that increasing violence in Nuristan - and in the provinces of Laghman, Kunar and Nangarhar - poses a significant security threat.

"Nuristan is now al-Qaeda and Taliban central," said one senior police official in the province. "They attack in hundreds, they have blocked key roads. We need to retake these areas from them."

 

[iPhone]

What're you doin up so early bilal? It's not even six.

 

[53fd]

What're you doin up so early bilal? It's not even six.

Never slept. Vacations lol...

 

[KS]

Are bhai, who said there are no similarities? There are more similarities than differences. But that is not the issue being discussed on this thread. Why is that so hard to understand for you?

As I said there issues cannot be discussed in isolation as they are like conjoined twins.

But then why should I bother when the people suffering are innocent Pakistanis and not Indians ?

Good Luck supporting the "local groups".

Mullah Fazlullah is only a small part of the people that get refuge in Afghanistan. Qari Zia Rehman, head of Al-Qaeda operations in the Kunar province, & the Bajaur Agency in Pakistan; gets his refuge in Afghanistan. There are many such other examples, most notably of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) that is a threat to Uzbekistan, Tajikistan & Pakistan; that operates from Kunar province as well. So I don't know what you are talking about. I hope you're not arguing for the sake for arguing:

Nuristan is al-Qaeda and Taliban central: (quoted from the article)

BBC News - Afghan-Pakistan border like 'house without door'

I distinctly remember you arguing that BBC in is not credible in these matters when arguing who created the Taliban. Anyways.

 

[53fd]

As I said there issues cannot be discussed in isolation as they are like conjoined twins.

Sure they can. The US is doing the same thing in Afghanistan. Plus, this is not the topic of the thread.

Good Luck supporting the "local groups".

I guess you have nothing worthwhile to say on this topic then?

 

[KS]

Sure they can. The US is doing the same thing in Afghanistan. Plus, this is not the topic of the thread.

Topics like these can never be dealt in exclusion - a fundamental flaw in your argument.

I guess you have nothing worthwhile to say on this topic then?

Tried saying. Pakistanis not willing to listen . So just a Good Luck for courtesy sake.

 

[Moorkh]

You didn't understand the article. I suggest you read it carefully, & then get back.

No one disputes that there are al-Qaeda terrorists in North Waziristan now. But pre-9/11, there were no Al-Qaeda fighters in Pakistan. Post 9/11, they got pushed into Pakistan's tribal areas from Afghanistan. Which is why the US attacked Afghanistan, not Pakistan on 9/11. It is nothing but lies from the international media that Pakistan supports the international globalist agenda of the international Al-Qaeda fighters from Uzbekistan, Somalia, Yemen, Chechnya, Germany, Arab nations etc to gain any kind of leverage. Pakistan was only interested in having strategic depth in Afghanistan & Indian administered Kashmir. What leverage can Pakistan gain by supporting international Chechen Al-Qaeda terrorists against Chechnya or Russia? In fact, the international fighters of these country are nothing but an impediment to Pakistan & the Pakistan administration. Hence, many of the things international media outlets spew about Pakistan are pretty much false. It is harmful for everyone to make Pakistan the scapegoat for everything & overlook the real problems, & the underlying causes of the region. I suggest you read the initial post carefully once again, & then respond.

I take it that there were no terrorists in Pakistan before 9/11. This was because they had a sanctuary in Afganistan. Afganistan at the time had the Taliban in power who were supported entirely by Pakistan.

When the Taliban were bombed out by the americans, they took refuge with their old friends the Pakistanis who had supported them for so long earlier. with the Taliban also came these terrorists who found that they were no more welcome in Afganistan. From their new sanctuary in pakistan they plotted their evil deeds and have now severely tarnished Pakistan's image.

These terrorists were not created because of WoT but have moved to safe Pakistan because of it. You have to agree that they are much safer from american bombs and planes in pakistan than they are in afganistan.

The terrorists are of no use to Pakistan, however they are part of the Taliban package that pakistanis seem to prefer. Earlier Pakistan was indirectly supporting them by supporting a power that was supporting them. Now Pakistan is stuck with them on its own territory and in a situation where it cant support them with plausible deniablity and cant get rid of them for fear that the taliban it supported turn against it.