Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Spectre]

There are couple of issues here

- Self Admittedly leak is serious according to all parties concerned and the statements have been made to this effect.

- Seriousness of the leak can be because of two reasons

a. Source and extent of access to the original leak i.e. subcontractor.

He may have provided the technical manual to the Aussie newspaper but there is no saying what level of access he had and what else he may have taken along with him. May be this was teaser and he is holding on to good stuff for future benefit

b. Data control practices of DCNS

There shouldn't even arise an occasion where retired/fired employee can take off with any thing which is restricted. That it happened again puts into question if the data control practices were lax and if so then how many other such incidents happened which haven't come to light.

Future course of action

- That the leak happened itself is a breach of contract and if not contract then an ethics breach by DCNS. It remains to be seen if GoI will take any punitive action and if so what would be the extent of it.

- This leak provides further weight to the logic of forgoing imports. The very fact that the manual could have been a public knowledge according @Nilgiri and @PARIKRAMA is a matter of concern. Submarines product should be like a black box but this is obviously not the case when various other parties easily have access to the broad contours of the product

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN

What all are the functions of a crew in a surfaced Kilo of Indian Navy? May I enquire?

A Kilo crew, even in surface, has a lot of other things to do than reading a newspaper....

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy’s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-25#ixzz4IMPFQnWZ

I was saying that I don't think a sub crew, once on the surface in the middle of the ocean (not at 5NM from the port), has for first task to find an hypothetical WIFI or sat connection to track a news.

Merci beaucoup! Pilote?

@PARIKRAMA he is a mirage pilot if I recall correctly?

On topic:

I think we are is safe waters for now. Preliminary information says not much to worry on. DCNS, of course, will have to worry a lot as they are in default of the confidentiality clause. Interesting to see what configurational changes take place, now.

Pilot? myself ?
No.

 

[Nilgiri]

This leak provides further weight to the logic of forgoing imports. The very fact that the manual could have been a public knowledge according @Nilgiri and @PARIKRAMA is a matter of concern. Submarines product should be like a black box but this is obviously not the case when various other parties easily have access to the broad contours of the product

Its a trade-off friend when you go for import for immediate "need-filling" or stepping stone of ToT etc...

As long as India hedges the best it can, with the most information and wisdom it can gather....it should be completely capable force defence wise in the long run.

I have to sometime down the road check what I can find in the dark web regarding military manuals.

I have a crap ton from the cold war that I gathered some time back (mostly when I was fiddling with the idea of developing a weapon system myself)...still quite relevant potent stuff....you would be surprised to see how much is technically still classified.

Anyways, we shall wait and see how this all unfolds....nothing any of us can do about it but sit back and have faith in our country and defence forces.

 

[Spectre]

when you go for import for immediate "need-filling" or stepping stone of ToT etc

Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.r

 

[Hellfire]

I was saying that I don't think a sub crew, once on the surface in the middle of the ocean (not at 5NM from the port), has for first task to find an hypothetical WIFI or sat connection to track a news.

You think? I am interested in what gave that away?

Your hands on experience in an IN Kilo? How was it?

Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.r

cost negotiations and finding issue.

 

[Nilgiri]

Hence my despair as the scorpenes where neither immediate and nor bought in substantial ToT else we would have all six ideally out in high seas by now and would be building the next set of subs ourselves without the need for floating a new tende.r

Yes its all perception as the MoD sees it. But I leave the call to them to make.

After this acquisition is done, I personally don't think India should go for a foreign SSK again for the next generation of its force (when it wants to pump out say dozens). It is a very crucial piece of strategic technology and India should really have the economies of scale in its RnD and shipyards by then.

But thats a different subject....and I personally like the Scorpene...and am just glad our SSBN program is well underway and within our control from start to end. That's what really counts for me....along with later SSN program we may have.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Which made me reach the natural possibility ( really putting on my tin foil hat here)....what if this leak was done on purpose by DCNS/India way at the root.....its not the first time I've heard about such in the defense world....esp with a new semi-cold war looming.

That is something i have heard yesterday a lot. It seems a theory going through few folks state that China was the first big beneficiary of all this as it wanted to look at Scorpenes subs of India and use the simulation algos to arrive at some library scents to help pakistan. But China also wanted to use the same base data set to go after a upgraded pattern to simulate the Barracuda submarine pattern in the library.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Barracuda is not just Australian submarine section but it vitally points out what it was always said here by me that India has been negotiating for that technology under the Umbrella of India France Rafale deal and disguised the whole with a civilian nuclear tech deal (the whole Air-Land-Sea cooperation). That is the point of interest.

There is no doubt the future SSN of India will carry that technology derivatives and also it will flow to SSBN. Instead of having a blank library, the plan is to have a somewhat narrower band which they are after.

By counter leaking the same and making the whole data useless with the lowest form of release (the restricted word usage), it has done

• to play down the trump card value bcz now such data is public and almost all countries can get access
• surely upgrades and counters are in place to ensure nothing is compromised for Indian scorpenes
• there is a greater behind the scene bargaining for India to be onboard all this.

When i asked my sources about it, all just kept quiet.. did not say yes or no.. normally if its a no its always an emphatic No or I don knw about it..

So i had been holding that part out and not writing it here bcz even i dont know for sure if its a game of chess being played out here.

Pilot? myself ?
No.

@BON PLAN he is perhaps confused with our other french friend @CNL-PN-AA

 

[Jaam92]

Superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Power of South Asia
It seems like PM Modi and his cabinet are watching Tamil and Telgu Movies on daily basis.

 

[Nilgiri]

So i had been holding that part out and not writing it here bcz even i dont know for sure if its a game of chess being played out here.

Yah personally I am not concerned about all I reveal/think/write about on this forum (and I do know the line)....because the major players....be it chess or otherwise have already seen many moves ahead.....because they have the benefit of hundreds, if not thousands of people doing just that for a job

But still a very interesting take you put on it. Appreciated as always.

 

[[Bregs]]

One thins seems certain after this ill timed leak for Navy and Air force too, it will have critical repercussions. Even if serious and honest inquiry is carried on by DCNS, the time taken will always be the critical factor as this involves multiple countries inquiry too. Rafale deal may further get delayed as well, so will be induction of scorpene subs. this leak even if nothing serious is lost will turn out to be nightmare for our forces which are already struggling for newer inductions and modernization.

our lazy work culture has got another credible excuse

 

[BON PLAN]

New Scorpene Details Show Vital Stats Are Out In Open: 10 Facts
All India | Reported by Vishnu Som, Edited by Divyanshu Dutta Roy | Updated: August 25, 2016 21:22 IST
Here are the top 10 developments in this big story:

1. The sonar system, including the frequencies used by its key components, the Flank Array, the Sonar Intercept Receiver, the Distributed Array and the Active Array have been compromised. All these systems work together to allow the submarine to detect enemy warships and submarines and attack them using torpedoes.
2. The latest tranche of data appears to contradict the Ministry of Defence statement earlier today that there was no immediate security risk from the leak of secret documents detailing the capabilities of the Scorpene.
3. The Australian newspaper, which reported on the leak two days ago, posted new details this evening on its website but with sensitive info redacted.
4. So though the documents prove that the classified information had been compromised, it is not in the public domain.
5. The documents posted earlier have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement earlier. However, it is The Australian which has redacted sensitive data. It is possible that these documents are also available to others.
6. Six Scorpenes designed by French shipmaker DCNS are being built in Mumbai. The first is expected to join service before the end of this year.
7. On Tuesday night, the Australian said it had 22,000 pages of details that exposed the combat capability of the submarines, being built at a cost of $3.5 billion.
8. The documents were stolen from DCNS and not leaked, an unnamed French government source said to news agency Reuters, adding that the information published so far shows only operational aspects of the submarines.
9. The source said the documents appeared to have been stolen in 2011 by a former French employee that had been fired while providing training in India on the use of the submarines.
10. India and France have opened investigations with Delhi asking for a detailed report.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/more...per-10-facts-1450394?pfrom=home-lateststories
++

Main use of sonar, to remain discreet, is passive way. To know what is the freq. range is not very usefull. Except if a foreign country is able to make a sub emitting out that range. But that famous range is deep. Too deep !

 

[Vergennes]

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy

I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or close the case.

Now let's wait & see.

Sorry for the translation.

 

[BON PLAN]

@Spectre
Tagged you here..

As you were saying why not sensitive chiefly for few reasons. The thread already has much more materials collated here from open sources as well as what we could muster from our friends, colleagues, news reports, tweets and seniors/sources. The talk about frequenices/numbers being out is a pure misnomer. Our scorpene are being build over last 4 years when local MSMEs have stepped in to make own systems to replace original systems which are not there in any manual. so a lot more customization happened. Heck those manuals will be finalised post sea trials this month and formal induction of first sub kalavari In October 2016.

Acoustic signature is not yet added in our IFF library so no one can know other than the plain vanilla option in library records obtained from other sources or other navies. SO the so called stealth angle is never compromised nor it will be ever compromised especially since warm waters in this region provide additional natural cover.(again covered in this thread somewhere)

Let me give a simple example to highlight few points
Consider the Combat System Subtics
View attachment 328947
That same subtics is there with Scorpenes as well.
The basic operating manual will cover the same points already known on subtics to all sides.

What it will not tell: The processing power, the sensors via which integrated data points are fed into the combat system, the algos, ect are much better than previous versions used in the above table format. on top, our HWT is not yet integrated which is suppose to be F21 implying the response of the system and additional things are yet to be encoded to get proper response time as well as range of combat, guidance of torpedoes etc.

Consider say now the active passive sonar suite S-Cube
The leak talked about all array forms which are also there in Thales UW presentation posted here in this thread. Yet we know the range and i quoting it here 10Hz to 250 KHz from the same public document.. The military RFI or tender has more specific numbers in the same range and 99% of the whole world submarines also use the same band of frequencies for detection. Even the angle of coverage is given in such detailed presentation under tender conditions submitted to every competition won or failed..obtaining such information clandestinely is even more easier than such buying from a ex officer.

BTW there are additional customization in S-Cube Suite. I wont write beyond on this. Bcz doing that will surely endanger the sub specs. But rest assured we have been able to use a highly advanced and customised version of this S- Cube and wont share that with any other customer suites

Now lets take a case closer home. Do check DRDO Tender dox. What you get there is

• Engineering drawings
• Metallurgy details including elemental composition
• All technical specifications including electronic ranges to pressure ranges to what not
• connection into live projects

Now there was never an alarm raised for that till now.. When i see the tender dox of today or old ones i knw exactly what systems and sub systems are there, whats the tech specs pertaining to its work. Considering a missile or Electro Opto piece or even a subsystem for LCA or a recently tested Glide Bomb design and wings to what not things..

Pray, do tell us are they not dangerous.. if so, then why our media and forces never expressed their concern and panicked into the same.

I am not saying nothing significant is there.. Its restricted it means for authorized personnel only.. but i will not buy the argument that our scorpenes are compromised.

Now coming to DCNS, the official response to DCNS is proper. Dont go by what newspaper quoted. The official response as per their press release is this
View attachment 328950
Kindly see the date
View attachment 328951
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/press-information/

Now shall we consider the spokesperson quoted in newspaper as authentic or the ones listed in press information release in their website.

If you see The Australian newspaper work and read the whole story its clear that they are using India as a shoulder support to fire the gun. Its in our Scorpene expense the whole game is being played.

I still support nothing extremely alarming has been leaked. But yes i will still consider the authentic probe to complete and give that 1 % additional verdict to make it 100% sure that our subs are not duds.



.

SUBTICS is a generic term. It's like Windows... You can be sure the SUBTICS of the ****' Agosta 90B is like a Windows 95 when those of Scorpene is more like Windows 7.

 

[Hellfire]

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy

I don't know if it was already said here,but DCNS filed a lawsuit yesterday against "X" for breach of confidence,possession of stolen documents (recel in french),and complicity.
The case is now brought in court and they will decide to open a preliminary investigation,to give the case to investigating judges or close the case.

Now let's wait & see.

Sorry for the translation.

That , is the expected due process of law. What is the trade off?

@PARIKRAMA yeah. I confused him, @BON PLAN missed my satirical post and took it seriously. He should do a bit of research on Rukmini . He will get the point then.

 

[BON PLAN]

Bro has anyone revealed if the identity of this retired officer known to French authorities?

@Vergennes @Taygibay @BON PLAN

Not yet.