What's new

Scythians - The Greatest Warriors of World

The Scythians are too vague as an ethnic group.

The Scythians lived in Europe weren't the same as those lived in Asia.


And the only Europeans who are related to them are the Slavs and the Balts, the rests didn't have much to do with the Scyths as genetically proved.

I meant the 'only Europeans' who are related to the Scyths.

The Indo-Iranian speakers in Asia are indeed related to them.

The trouble seems to be that you are considering the later use of the word 'Scythian' to refer even to the Goths and other east Germans who came into Europe very late, rather than the Slavs and Balts, and also the Poles, who, of course, are to be counted among the Slavs in any case. It was never thought in early days that the Scythians were associated with ALL Europeans.

These confusing usages were not all at the same time. At least till the time of the early Roman Empire, it could be considered that the Scythians were resident in the steppes, and were a genetically mixed group. DNA and other genetic markers are quite correct in saying that the Scythians were not one ethnic group, but a mixture of several, all travelling together and mingling in their journeys on the steppes.

Earliest records and evidence show them as speaking a version of east Iranian, so it is quite right to assess them as Indo-Iranian. The version of east Iranian that they spoke had not shifted hugely from Vedic Sanskrit, as proven by the references in the Mahabharata.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Well, the Scythians from Russia and Ukraine shows genetically very Slavic, also mixing with the Uralic tribes in the North, whereas those from Asia are much more complicated, some even absorbed large amount of Turkic elements.
 
.
I agree with your view. In the sources that I have accessed there was a confusion about the classification of Jatts under the Varna system. They were pastoral and agriculturalists by profession but war-like and aggressive by outlook. So it seemed that they fit into both the Vaishya and Kshatriya castes. Their late arrival complicated matters.

Perhaps you could expand on these points. Our thread author might well be interested.
 
.
Well, the Scythians from Russia and Ukraine shows genetically very Slavic, also mixing with the Uralic tribes in the North, whereas those from Asia are much more complicated, some even absorbed large amount of Turkic elements.

I have no difficulty with your views. Perhaps the differences lie only in the fact that you are compressing large spans of time. The composition of the Scythians in the Trans-Oxus areas in the Mahabharata time-span, prior to 800 BC and after 1400 BC, in the post-Alexandrian years, in the 3rd century AD and immediately before and after, and later, when Siberian tribes and Mongolians had combined to form the prototypical Turkish race, was substantially difficult.

In that context, your analysis is perfectly correct; the European sections of the Scythians, who were from the outset a very mixed breed of people, underwent less ethnic admixture than their buffeted eastern, Asian sections.
 
.
Here is an unmixed Europid Scythian mummy from Tuva Siberia.

www.jpg


Chief.jpg


Genotypically, this mummy carried R1a1a, but phenotypically he is the Eastern European Nordic.

I guess he may look like this Russian dude when he was alive.

russianguy.jpg
 
.
History of the Scythians:
The Scythian tribes belonged to the Indo-European peoples that emerged in Inner Asia around 3,000 years ago. These fierce nomadic horsemen, related to the Persians, settled in the area of the present-day Ukraine at the end of the 8th century BC, driving out the local Cimmerian tribes, who were also of Indo-European descent. Because of their unfamiliar customs, as well as incredible military skills, the Scythians gained notoriety for their seemingly wild behaviour and rituals, especially among the Greeks who neighboured the lands taken by the Scythians. Their riotous lifestyle was fuelled by bravery, comradeship, alcohol, and cannabis. The Scythians drank their wine without adding water, which surprised the Greeks and drank to get drunk, which appalled them. This behaviour prompted a disdainful Greek to write in the 3rd century B.C., "to get drunk is to behave like a Scythian". In Histories, the Greek historian, Herodotus, who was a contemporary of the Scythians, wrote of Scythians "...(throwing hemp-seeds) onto red-hot stones. The seeds immediately smoke...The Scythians, delighted...howl loudly".

A race of warriors with no written language of their own, the Scythians carried their treasures from place to place, on horseback or in pulled wagons. Their history, carved in gold and silver, was buried in the graves of their elite. Deep burial chambers hid the remains of the deceased (of both sexes)and, as Herodotus wrote in Histories, "When their king dies...they lay the dead man in his grave on a bed...they bury one of his concubines, killing her by strangling, and his cup-bearer, cook, groom, lackey, and messenger. Also his horses...and golden cups...Having done this, they raise a vast mound of earth..." These massive kurhany were frequently crowned with a monumental stone sculpture of a warrior, symbolizing the importance of the deceased elite aristocracy.

Herodotus, who was a contemporary of the Scythians, noted that they were divided into three kingdoms: the highest-ranked were the Royal Scythians, who settled in the coastal Black Sea, especially in the region of today's Crimean Peninsula. Their taste for art and gold placed them among the greatest art patrons of the age. The Ploughmen Scythians settled in the lands inhabited by local peoples in the watersheds of the Dnipro, Dnister, and Don rivers, in Ukraine. They dealt in the farming and animal husbandry business, controlling the grain trade with Greece. It is assumed that they acquired their farming skills by assimilating the local, probably proto-Slavic tribes, who had farmed that land for millennia. The third group described by Herodotus, the Nomadic Scythians, arrived in this area last, and were not always friendly to their already settled kinsmen. Despite their military prowess and reputation for strength, skill and ferocity, the Scythians were gradually driven out of the area by the Sarmatians and Celtic tribes, who gained control of the steppes during the 3rd century B.C.
Royal Ontario Museum | Newsroom | News Releases | Legacy in Gold: Scythian Treasures from Ancient Ukraine
 
.
The best of scythia existed in modern day Pakistan....they settled around indus river and few cooler parts in northern india

2uiw0ev.jpg
 
.
Well im a Kamboh (kamboja), and was pretty surprised to read on wikipedia that Kambohs were actually a royal clan of Scythians.

"However, most scholars now agree that the Kambojas were Iranians,[11][12][13] cognate with the Indo-Scythians. Kambojas are also described by scholars as being a Royal Clan of the Sakas or Scythians.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20] This also seems to be confirmed from Mathura Lion Capital Inscriptions of Mahaksatrapa Rajuvula and the Rock Edict XIII of King Aśoka[16][21]"

Kambojas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though i know this is wikipedia and hence not the most reliable source but nevertheless the statement does seem to be backed up by reasonable sources.

I agree with one of the comments made earlier on that the word "Scythian" seems very vague. To expect peoples so far away to be the same is quite unconvincing. Perhaps Scythian is more of a culture followed by various ethnicities than an actual race itself?
 
.
@ChineseTiger1986

You might also like to look at the appearance of Scythians in the Persian royal monuments, where they are frequently shown with their peaked caps, sometimes allies and feudatories, sometimes prisoners of war. The last Achaemenid, Darius III, died while fleeing Alexander in the company of his satrap for the Scythian regions, Bessus.
 
.
@ChineseTiger1986

You might also like to look at the appearance of Scythians in the Persian royal monuments, where they are frequently shown with their peaked caps, sometimes allies and feudatories, sometimes prisoners of war. The last Achaemenid, Darius III, died while fleeing Alexander in the company of his satrap for the Scythian regions, Bessus.

Yeah, according to some Greek and Persian historians, they were some mecenaries who worn the pointed cap.

scyth.jpeg


This custom was also widely spread among the Eastern Europe.

products_558_1_medium.jpg
 
.
The best of scythia existed in modern day Pakistan....they settled around indus river and few cooler parts in northern india

I am not sure why you call this 'the best of Scythia'. They came to these areas under heavy pressure for over a century from the Yueh Zhi, the Moon Clan of the Tocharians, who have been mentioned in an earlier post as the red-headed mummies who have been found in the Tarim Basin. The Yueh Zhi being themselves under extreme pressure from the Hiung Nu, reacted in three ways: one section turned left, south-east, and vanished into the Tibetan plateau; one section surrendered to the Hiung Nu and merged with their conquerors; the largest section fled south-west, displaced the Scythians from the Ferghana region and established their rule there.

The Scythians, under this pressure, moved into the territories of the Indo-Bactrian Greek kingdoms, destroyed those kingdoms, and occupied Balkh and lands south. It was at this and the next stage that the corner of Afghanistan abutting Iran and north of Baluchistan, known to the Greeks as Arachosia, came to be known, after its conquerors, Sakasthan, or Seistan.

However, there was a second phase of pressure, as the Yueh Zhi, under sustained pressure from the Hiung Nu, failed to hold their newly-acquired positions, and fled forward, again onto the hapless Scythians in Balkh, and in a replay of events of a mere few decades past, pushed out the Scythians and their allies, the Parthians (known in Indian history as the Pahlavas). The Scythians, unable to expand south-west, across the desert into the strong Seleucid kingdom, moved east instead, and the map shows the situation at this stage, when the Yueh Zhi were still at Balkh and the Scytho-Parthians were ruling in western India.

Please note the location of their rule in India and correct the impression that it was precisely and exactly bounded by the Indus Valley; that valley happened to be part of their possessions, along with much more to the east and portions to the west. It is probably these tribes, too powerful to be left out, already favourably inclined towards the heresy of Buddhism from their earlier days in Ferghana, were then absorbed into the Hindu fold by priests who arranged for them to be converted to Hinduism, contrary to the belief that to be a Hindu one was born one, there was no process of conversion possible. No details of these conversion rituals exist; it is not known whether the entire tribe was converted or only some limited members or even only the Satrap.

The occurrence of Jats and Gujjars in Indian history is only from this point onwards, and leads to tempting speculations.

Well im a Kamboh (kamboja), and was pretty surprised to read on wikipedia that Kambohs were actually a royal clan of Scythians.

"However, most scholars now agree that the Kambojas were Iranians,[11][12][13] cognate with the Indo-Scythians. Kambojas are also described by scholars as being a Royal Clan of the Sakas or Scythians.[14][15][16][17][18][19][20] This also seems to be confirmed from Mathura Lion Capital Inscriptions of Mahaksatrapa Rajuvula and the Rock Edict XIII of King Aśoka[16][21]"

Kambojas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though i know this is wikipedia and hence not the most reliable source but nevertheless the statement does seem to be backed up by reasonable sources.

An interesting observation. Have you read the thread carefully so far?

The connection of the Kamboja, and the Scythian, and the Iranian, or east Iranian, is clear from fairly ancient days. Since you are able to access Wikipedia, and it is not clear what other references you have ready at hand, it is appropriate to start with Wikipedia and follow up the sources listed on your own, fanning out as you follow the references. In this case, having looked up Kamboja, you may as well look up Parama Kamboja.

You will find that in the tribal roll-call of the Battle of Kurukshetra, the Uttara Madra and the Parama Kamboja are both mentioned (along with the Madra and the Kamboja). These are people straddling the mountain ranges between present-day north-west Pakistan and Afghanistan and Tajikistan, the Parama Kamboja resident around the valley of Ferghana. The Parama Kamboja are mentioned as great horsemen; the reputation of the Ferghana valley for producing the greatest horses in central Asia is found as late as Babur, in the fifteenth century. They are also the source of blankets (Kambal), suitable for self-indulgence or for making magnificent gifts. Parama Kamboja horses were the best available, and they themselves were outstanding in battle. They were excellent cavalrymen, and the Mahabharata describes their charges as irresistible. The Mahabharata described how, after the patriarch Bhishma was defeated in battle and lay wounded, waiting to die, the Parama Kamboja prince leading his contingent was made commander in chief, and dressed the Kaurava ranks in different formations while he was alive and in charge; evidently, his position demanded that he fight in a chariot, as he did so. He, too, died in battle, to the arrows of Arjuna, falling out of his chariot like a pine-tree.

Their language was similar to the Indians, but differed in some respects. This helps to tie down the description even further. The Parama Kamboja in later years were clearly part of the Scythian confederacy, and their language was thought to be east Iranian; not too difficult to reconcile to a situation where passages of the Zend Avesta, and passages of the Rig Veda, its older hymns specially, closely resemble each other (Avestan was written neither in western nor in eastern Iranian, but forms a branch of the Iranian languages on its own). So east Iranian is easy to position as a language which could be understood by clans living on both sides of the mountains, but with the clans on the Indian side gradually drawing away and their language gradually mutating away towards what eventually became the Paninian 'classic' Sanskrit.

The Parama Kamboja evidently survived as a clan of some distinction among the Scythian confederacy, either as an entire clan or as a group of families that contributed leaders and kings. However, before identifying that social group with today's Kamboh in Potohar, we need to remind ourselves that another, more familiar tribe, the Kamboja-not-the-Param, far less exotic, was also around, and also prominent. Today's Kamboh need not be exclusively tied to either the plain-vanilla Kamboja or their exotic cousins across the mountains the Parama Kamboja.

I agree with one of the comments made earlier on that the word "Scythian" seems very vague. To expect peoples so far away to be the same is quite unconvincing. Perhaps Scythian is more of a culture followed by various ethnicities than an actual race itself?

Perfect!

I wish I had thought of this very apt wording!

You do realise that you have not only described Scythians but Indo-Aryans as well!!! They, too, were not a race, but were several races; in addition, beyond your formulation, they were even several cultures, the whole unified by an adoption of one language system.
 
.
I am not sure why you call this 'the best of Scythia'. They came to these areas under heavy pressure for over a century from the Yueh Zhi, the Moon Clan of the Tocharians, who have been mentioned in an earlier post as the red-headed mummies who have been found in the Tarim Basin. The Yueh Zhi being themselves under extreme pressure from the Hiung Nu, reacted in three ways: one section turned left, south-east, and vanished into the Tibetan plateau; one section surrendered to the Hiung Nu and merged with their conquerors; the largest section fled south-west, displaced the Scythians from the Ferghana region and established their rule there.

The Scythians, under this pressure, moved into the territories of the Indo-Bactrian Greek kingdoms, destroyed those kingdoms, and occupied Balkh and lands south. It was at this and the next stage that the corner of Afghanistan abutting Iran and north of Baluchistan, known to the Greeks as Arachosia, came to be known, after its conquerors, Sakasthan, or Seistan.

However, there was a second phase of pressure, as the Yueh Zhi, under sustained pressure from the Hiung Nu, failed to hold their newly-acquired positions, and fled forward, again onto the hapless Scythians in Balkh, and in a replay of events of a mere few decades past, pushed out the Scythians and their allies, the Parthians (known in Indian history as the Pahlavas). The Scythians, unable to expand south-west, across the desert into the strong Seleucid kingdom, moved east instead, and the map shows the situation at this stage, when the Yueh Zhi were still at Balkh and the Scytho-Parthians were ruling in western India.

Please note the location of their rule in India and correct the impression that it was precisely and exactly bounded by the Indus Valley; that valley happened to be part of their possessions, along with much more to the east and portions to the west. It is probably these tribes, too powerful to be left out, already favourably inclined towards the heresy of Buddhism from their earlier days in Ferghana, were then absorbed into the Hindu fold by priests who arranged for them to be converted to Hinduism, contrary to the belief that to be a Hindu one was born one, there was no process of conversion possible. No details of these conversion rituals exist; it is not known whether the entire tribe was converted or only some limited members or even only the Satrap.

The occurrence of Jats and Gujjars in Indian history is only from this point onwards, and leads to tempting speculations.



An interesting observation. Have you read the thread carefully so far?

The connection of the Kamboja, and the Scythian, and the Iranian, or east Iranian, is clear from fairly ancient days. Since you are able to access Wikipedia, and it is not clear what other references you have ready at hand, it is appropriate to start with Wikipedia and follow up the sources listed on your own, fanning out as you follow the references. In this case, having looked up Kamboja, you may as well look up Parama Kamboja.

You will find that in the tribal roll-call of the Battle of Kurukshetra, the Uttara Madra and the Parama Kamboja are both mentioned (along with the Madra and the Kamboja). These are people straddling the mountain ranges between present-day north-west Pakistan and Afghanistan and Tajikistan, the Parama Kamboja resident around the valley of Ferghana. The Parama Kamboja are mentioned as great horsemen; the reputation of the Ferghana valley for producing the greatest horses in central Asia is found as late as Babur, in the fifteenth century. They are also the source of blankets (Kambal), suitable for self-indulgence or for making magnificent gifts. Parama Kamboja horses were the best available, and they themselves were outstanding in battle. They were excellent cavalrymen, and the Mahabharata describes their charges as irresistible. The Mahabharata described how, after the patriarch Bhishma was defeated in battle and lay wounded, waiting to die, the Parama Kamboja prince leading his contingent was made commander in chief, and dressed the Kaurava ranks in different formations while he was alive and in charge; evidently, his position demanded that he fight in a chariot, as he did so. He, too, died in battle, to the arrows of Arjuna, falling out of his chariot like a pine-tree.

Their language was similar to the Indians, but differed in some respects. This helps to tie down the description even further. The Parama Kamboja in later years were clearly part of the Scythian confederacy, and their language was thought to be east Iranian; not too difficult to reconcile to a situation where passages of the Zend Avesta, and passages of the Rig Veda, its older hymns specially, closely resemble each other (Avestan was written neither in western nor in eastern Iranian, but forms a branch of the Iranian languages on its own). So east Iranian is easy to position as a language which could be understood by clans living on both sides of the mountains, but with the clans on the Indian side gradually drawing away and their language gradually mutating away towards what eventually became the Paninian 'classic' Sanskrit.

The Parama Kamboja evidently survived as a clan of some distinction among the Scythian confederacy, either as an entire clan or as a group of families that contributed leaders and kings. However, before identifying that social group with today's Kamboh in Potohar, we need to remind ourselves that another, more familiar tribe, the Kamboja-not-the-Param, far less exotic, was also around, and also prominent. Today's Kamboh need not be exclusively tied to either the plain-vanilla Kamboja or their exotic cousins across the mountains the Parama Kamboja.



Perfect!

I wish I had thought of this very apt wording!

You do realise that you have not only described Scythians but Indo-Aryans as well!!! They, too, were not a race, but were several races; in addition, beyond your formulation, they were even several cultures, the whole unified by an adoption of one language system.

Intresting , i was considering my self only have intrest in history of warrior nations lol
 
.
Intresting , i was considering my self only have intrest in history of warrior nations lol

There's nothing called a warrior nation, only groups of people who from time to time have a military advantage over their neighbours. If you find yourself thinking of martial races, read Major A. H. Amin on the subject; he sets that illusion right pretty sharply!! :-D
 
.
There's nothing called a warrior nation, only groups of people who from time to time have a military advantage over their neighbours. If you find yourself thinking of martial races, read Major A. H. Amin on the subject; he sets that illusion right pretty sharply!! :-D

I think only nations well prepered for wars could servive , hence warrior nation concept is right .
 
.
There's nothing called a warrior nation, only groups of people who from time to time have a military advantage over their neighbours. If you find yourself thinking of martial races, read Major A. H. Amin on the subject; he sets that illusion right pretty sharply!! :-D

I asume you mean Major A. H. Amin coments on Indian history?

It may be noted that the toughest military resistance to the English East India Company as far as the Muslims were concerned was offered in South India by Mysore, an area where the Muslims were a minority! But after 1885 the Madras Army which had about 30 % Muslims was declared non martial by the British and replaced by Punjabis.The toughest resistance to the Sikhs in Punjab was offered by the Seraiki Pathan, Saddozai/Durrani Muslims of Multan during the period 1799-1818.But very few of these Seraiki Muslims enlisted in the British Indian Army.Were these Muslims non martial,as I unfortunately heard being confidently asserted by many officers in my army career!
 
.
Back
Top Bottom