SC rejects plea seeking probe of cipher at centre of Imran’s ‘foreign conspiracy’ claims

[VCheng]

You can search all the JITs conducted by European countries and see how it works.

Plethora of literature there. India does it too. Pretty common practice. You want me to drop links to the lit? I can do that if you want.

How about you tell me why you feel a JIT is a breach of executive powers?

That is mere whataboutery. Pakistan has its own laws.

Let us start with a simple step: Just who initiates such a JIT in Pakistan given the nature of a cipher as a protected communication among members of the executive branch? No whataboutery, please. I am trying to understand whether your hypothesis is feasible. It is not a matter of how one feels but what the laws provide for in such matters.

 

[Ssan]

That is mere whataboutery. Pakistan has its own laws.

Let us start with a simple step: Just who initiates such a JIT in Pakistan given the nature of a cipher as a protected communication among members of the executive branch? No whataboutery, please. I am trying to understand whether your hypothesis is feasible. It is not a matter of how one feels but what the laws provide for in such matters.

Lol, so you are arguing on a technicality of law- letter of law then?

The Supreme Court under the constitution is enabled to deliver full justice on any matter of public interest. That means that the cipher is not protected communication for the SC if there is public interest. In any case, the whatsboutwry is on your end.

Prove that the SC cannot read the cypher by quoting the relevant para from the officials secret act, 1923.

 

[VCheng]

The Supreme Court under the constitution is enabled to deliver full justice on any matter of public interest. That means that the cipher is not protected communication for the SC if there is public interest.

Absolutely incorrect.

Prove that the SC cannot read the cypher by quoting the relevant para from the officials secret act, 1923.

LOL. You made the claim that what the SC has said in its verdict is wrong. The onus is on YOU to provide the legal basis for what you claim that eluded the SC.

 

[kursed]

The two key questions I quoted above are important, no matter who asks them, and relevant to the court's verdict.

Lt Gen (r) Tariq Khan excuses himself from govt commission to probe 'foreign conspiracy'

Says since the PTI govt's tenure is ending, the commission will not be allowed to function when a new govt takes over.

www.dawn.com

Our judges lack ethics. And to those suggesting that Khan should've removed Bajwa - Bajwa sb had a 'back-dated' petition filed in the LHC, anticipating just this - ALL THE WHILE India had fired a Brahmos into Pakistan. =)

The priorities of our masters are quite in the clear.

 

[Ssan]

Absolutely incorrect.



LOL. You made the claim that what the SC has said in its verdict is wrong. The onus is on YOU to provide the legal basis for what you claim that eluded the SC.

Lol, you are the one that has said that this is a violation of executive authority, prove your point. Maybe you know something I don’t. The SC has also formed numerous JITs so don’t know why forming another one is so wrong.

Absolutely incorrect.



LOL. You made the claim that what the SC has said in its verdict is wrong. The onus is on YOU to provide the legal basis for what you claim that eluded the SC.

187

Issue and Execution of Processes of Supreme Court. (1) 434[Subject to clause(2) of Article 175, the] 434 Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it, including an order for the purpose of securing the attendance of any person or the discovery or production of any document. (2) Any such direction, order or decree shall be enforceable throughout Pakistan and shall, where it is to be executed in a Province, or a territory or an area not forming part of a Province but within the jurisdiction of the High Court of the Province, be executed as if it had been issued by the High Court of that Province. (3) If a question arises as to which High Court shall give effect to a direction, order or decree of the Supreme Court, the decision of the Supreme Court on the question shall be final.

Do tell me btw, when the words any documents are written, how does that not include the cipher?

 

[VCheng]

Lt Gen (r) Tariq Khan excuses himself from govt commission to probe 'foreign conspiracy'

Says since the PTI govt's tenure is ending, the commission will not be allowed to function when a new govt takes over.

www.dawn.com

Our judges lack ethics. And to those suggesting that Khan should've removed Bajwa - Bajwa sb had a 'back-dated' petition filed in the LHC, anticipating just this - ALL THE WHILE India had fired a Brahmos into Pakistan. =)

The priorities of our masters are quite in the clear.

If you are suggesting that the judges are unfit for office, then please start the process defined to remove them from the court. Please go right ahead.

Lol, you are the one that has said that this is a violation of executive authority, prove your point. Maybe you know something I don’t. The SC has also formed numerous JITs so don’t know why forming another one is so wrong.

187

Issue and Execution of Processes of Supreme Court. (1) 434[Subject to clause(2) of Article 175, the] 434 Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it, including an order for the purpose of securing the attendance of any person or the discovery or production of any document. (2) Any such direction, order or decree shall be enforceable throughout Pakistan and shall, where it is to be executed in a Province, or a territory or an area not forming part of a Province but within the jurisdiction of the High Court of the Province, be executed as if it had been issued by the High Court of that Province. (3) If a question arises as to which High Court shall give effect to a direction, order or decree of the Supreme Court, the decision of the Supreme Court on the question shall be final.

Do tell me btw, when the words any documents are written, how does that not include the cipher?

BWAHAHA!

I did not make that claim. The SC provided that as the justification for throwing out the petition before it. Good enough for me.

YOU are the one disagreeing with the rationale of the SC. YOU have to prove WHY. Not me.

 

[Ssan]

If you are suggesting that the judges are unfit for office, then please start the process defined to remove them from the court. Please go right ahead.






BWAHAHA!

I did not make that claim. The SC provided that as the justification for throwing out the petition before it. Good enough for me.

YOU are the one disagreeing with the rationale of the SC. YOU have to prove WHY. Not me.

unlike you, I have no qualms in saying that the judge in question is an idiot and moron. And that his reading of the law is unconstitutional. I have no problem in saying this. But you do. Hence you should also believe in fallacies like the innocence of Musharraf, lol.

Here is the relevant part in the constitution. It does not care about executive function when it comes to a matter of full justice-

Issue and Execution of Processes of Supreme Court.

187(1)

434[Subject to clause(2) of Article 175, the] 434 Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it, including an order for the purpose of securing the attendance of any person or the discovery or production of any document.

Paraphrased, “Supreme Court has power to do complete justice including order for securing any document.”

Go ahead now and tell me where the official secrets act bans judiciary from reading cipher. Please paste the para here.

 

[Riz]

stop urging with a donkey please

 

[VCheng]

, I have no qualms in saying that the judge in question is an idiot and moron. And that his reading of the law is unconstitutional.

I assume you have a law degree similar to at least those lawyers for the petitioner who accepted the ruling of the SC. And yet they are all fools and you are not who know what the correct law is? Unlikely. Are the petitioner's lawyers appealing this ruling?

Here is the relevant part in the constitution.

Let us see:

"Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it,"

Is there a case in the SC for this? No. The petition asking for the case was invalid, and there is no matter pending. Comprende?

 

[Ssan]

I assume you have a law degree similar to at least those lawyers for the petitioner who accepted the ruling of the SC. And yet they are all fools and you are not who know what the correct law is? Unlikely. Are the petitioner's lawyers appealing this ruling?



Let us see:

"Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it,"

Is there a case in the SC for this? No. The petition asking for the case was invalid, and there is no matter pending. Comprende?

This is the most moronic reading of this, lol. What did Justice esa rule on then if not a case or matter pending before him? I am laughing with tears.

I assume you have a law degree similar to at least those lawyers for the petitioner who accepted the ruling of the SC. And yet they are all fools and you are not who know what the correct law is? Unlikely. Are the petitioner's lawyers appealing this ruling?



Let us see:

"Supreme Court shall have power to issue such directions, orders or decrees as may be necessary for doing complete justice in any case or matter pending before it,"

Is there a case in the SC for this? No. The petition asking for the case was invalid, and there is no matter pending. Comprende?

This is the most moronic reading of this, lol. What did Justice esa rule on then if not a case or matter pending before him? Is this what Justice Esa argued? I am laughing with tears.

I don’t have a law degree but come from a family of lawyers. In our blood I guess. The reason the petitioner will not appeal has nothing to do with a matter of law but of realpolitik as it often does in Pakistan. Go ahead and try slapping article 6 on mushy.

 

[VCheng]

What did Justice esa rule on then if not a case or matter pending before him?

MashaAllah. Genius-with-law-in-the-blood-from-a-lawyer-family, please look up what a petition is, that was ruled upon, first. Hint: A petition becomes a case only after it is accepted by a court after establishing its validity.

 

[Ssan]

MashaAllah. Genius-with-law-in-the-blood-from-a-lawyer-family, please look up what a petition is, that was ruled upon, first. Hint: A petition becomes a case only after it is accepted by a court after establishing its validity.

MashAllah, snide comments and a quirky emoji don’t prove you have a point. This is like arguing with my 5 yr old, lol. Now you want to argue about whether a petition is a case or matter, is that it?

Quick aside, I’ll keep this argument educational for the audience, so instead please go try your luck with article 175(2). At least, you will have something to argue. Not this dribble.

 

[VCheng]

MashAllah, snide comments and a quirky emoji don’t prove you have a point. This is like arguing with my 5 yr old, lol. Now you want to argue about whether a petition is a case or matter, is that it?

Quick aside, I’ll keep this argument educational for the audience, so instead please go try your luck with article 175(2). At least, you will have something to argue. Not this dribble.

Here is some dribble straight from the horse's mouth at:

https://www.supremecourt.gov.pk/downloads_judgements/all_downloads/Supreme_Court_Rules/SUPREME_COURT_RULES_1980_AMMENDED.pdf

Let us start with Order V.1(6):

And then move on to Order XVII, specially XVII.4 and XVII.5:

I will just leave the readers to form their own conclusions, noting that what has happened to the petition is perfectly in accordance with the due processes of the Supreme Court.











I will end my participation in this thread by making the following observations:

Cult - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Specific factors in cult behavior are said to include manipulative and authoritarian mind control over members, communal and totalistic organization, aggressive proselytizing, systematic programs of indoctrination, and perpetuation in middle-class communities.

You're More Susceptible to Joining a Cult Than You Think

An expert explains how to spot the red flags.

www.oprahdaily.com

Here's a small sampling of the many practices that are listed under each subcategory; read Hassan's full BITE Model ( https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/ ). Any group member who encourages or enforces these behaviors should raise major red flags.

Behavior Control

A group member dictates where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates with, or isolates them from others.
They regulate your diet through forced fasting.
They manipulate a person and deprive them of sleep.
They practice financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence.
They impose rigid rules and regulations.

Information control

They practice deception (by deliberately withholding or distorting information, and/or lying).
They minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information (TV, internet, former members, and so on).
They make extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda (YouTube, newsletters, movies and other media).

Thought control

They require members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth (black-and-white, good vs evil thinking).
They change a person's name and identity.
They use loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts, and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words.
They employ hypnotic techniques to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and age-regress the member.
Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

Emotional control

They manipulate and narrow the range of feelings—some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish.
They teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt.
They make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault.
They instill fear, such as fear of the outside world, enemies, leaving or being shunned by the group.



















(And not a single smiley face in this post. Except this one at the end: )

 

[Ssan]

Here is some dribble straight from the horse's mouth at:

https://www.supremecourt.gov.pk/downloads_judgements/all_downloads/Supreme_Court_Rules/SUPREME_COURT_RULES_1980_AMMENDED.pdf

Let us start with Order V.1(6):

View attachment 917761

And then move on to Order XVII, specially XVII.4 and XVII.5:

View attachment 917762

View attachment 917763

View attachment 917764

I will just leave the readers to form their own conclusions, noting that what has happened to the petition is perfectly in accordance with the due processes of the Supreme Court.

Yawn

No one was arguing about due processes but about whether ordering an investigation would be judicial overreach.

I will end my participation in this thread by making the following observations:

Cult - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Specific factors in cult behavior are said to include manipulative and authoritarian mind control over members, communal and totalistic organization, aggressive proselytizing, systematic programs of indoctrination, and perpetuation in middle-class communities.

You're More Susceptible to Joining a Cult Than You Think

An expert explains how to spot the red flags.

www.oprahdaily.com

Here's a small sampling of the many practices that are listed under each subcategory; read Hassan's full BITE Model ( https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/ ). Any group member who encourages or enforces these behaviors should raise major red flags.

Behavior Control

A group member dictates where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates with, or isolates them from others.
They regulate your diet through forced fasting.
They manipulate a person and deprive them of sleep.
They practice financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence.
They impose rigid rules and regulations.

Information control

They practice deception (by deliberately withholding or distorting information, and/or lying).
They minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information (TV, internet, former members, and so on).
They make extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda (YouTube, newsletters, movies and other media).

Thought control

They require members to internalize the group's doctrine as truth (black-and-white, good vs evil thinking).
They change a person's name and identity.
They use loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts, and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words.
They employ hypnotic techniques to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and age-regress the member.
Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

Emotional control

They manipulate and narrow the range of feelings—some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish.
They teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt.
They make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault.
They instill fear, such as fear of the outside world, enemies, leaving or being shunned by the group.

Very informative thanks. Lol,
First it was prove your point, then it was whatever your reading is can’t be valid because you’re not allowed to have an opinion because you’re not a lawyer, then after some snide comments, it’s you’re in a cult. Lol. Keep straw manning around then.

(And not a single smiley face in this post. Except this one at the end: )

I’ll try one . Yawn

 

[VCheng]

No one was arguing about due processes but about whether ordering an investigation would be judicial overreach.

And as the verdict shows, it would be. And that is why the petition was denied. And the petitioner's lawyers have not appealed it thus far.

This should be enough for rationalists. After all, it is only cultists that would persist in denying evidentiary facts to maintain their false beliefs in their infallible leader.