Saudi Arabian interest in JF-17 Thunder, can cement the strategic defense relations with Pakistan.

[Kompromat]

Saudi Arabian interest in JF-17 Thunder, can cement the strategic defense relations with Pakistan. ​

A favorite destination


Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra ,is a busy place these days, because it has become a go to place for many Middle Eastern air forces to visit the manufacturing process and the products of the organization. Numerous high level, Middle Eastern air force delegations, including Jordanian, Iraqi, Yemeni and most recently the Royal Saudi Air Force delegation, have visited the PAC in Kamra. They expressed keen interest in the products and services offered by PAC, especially the JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter aircraft, which is the most high end product of PAC.

This week a high profile Saudi Arabian defense delegation lead by the Deputy Defence Minister Prince Salman bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz al Saud, visited Pakistan after the two countries agreed on 'enhanced defence ties' during a trip by Foreign Minister Saud al Faisal to Islamabad earlier. The two countries described the warming of bilateral defense ties as the beginning of a ‘new era in the strategic partnership’ between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

The delegation stayed in Pakistan for three days and was hosted at the General Headquarters of the Pakistan Army, Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force, Pakistan Ordnance Factories at wah and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra, the home of JF-17 Thunder aircraft. The Saudi defense delegation also included the members of the Royal Saudi Air Force, during the visit to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. Reportedly, Saudi Arabia has expressed interest in joining the JF-17 program with Pakistan during the visit.


Royal Saudi Air Force is a high tech organization


The Royal Saudi Air Force, is one of the most advanced and professional air forces in the region which employs some of the most advanced fighter, attack and early warning aircrafts like the Boeing F-15 Eagle, F-15 Strike Eagle, Eurofighter Typhoon, Panavia Tornado and E-3 sentry. It has also recently ordered, much advanced F-15 SA aircraft from Boeing, which pack an advanced array of onboard systems like AESA radar and other upgrades like, signature enhancements, Infrared Search and Track, Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System and upgraded engines.


Benefits to the Royal Saudi Air Force

'JF-17 Thunder is so easy to fly that we don't require a dual seat variant, we utilize advanced simulators for training' | Air Marshal Khalid Mehmood, the JF-17 program director.

In that context the Saudi Arabian interest in the JF-17 Thunder program, might raise some eyebrows in certain countries and among certain experts. It must be understood that by expressing interest in the JF-17 Thunder program, the RSAF might be opting for a 'hi-lo mix' doctrine. The RSAF is operating its advanced fleet of fighter and attack aircraft for frontline duties, while the JF-17 might become its workhorse for training, conversion, Combat Air Patrol, Point Defence and Close Air Support, much like the Lockheed Martin F-16.

The JF-17 is a cost effective platform, with minimum operating and maintenance costs as compared to RSAF's front line fleet. It means that RSAF can save the airframe hours on its frontline jets as well as save on operating and maintenance costs by having its pilots fly the much cheaper and easier to maintain JF-17 Thunder aircraft. What also is noteworthy, is that the JF-17 Thunder will offer and 'open architecture' to RSAF for weapons and software integration, which means that the RSAF would have a level of freedom in open source weapons and software integration it has never enjoyed before. This feature will offer RSAF to integrate any open market weapon system, avionics and electronics it wants on its JF-17 fleet, giving it a great control over the platform to carry out a variety of missions.


Industrial benefits to Saudi aviation industry

Pakistan is the sole producer and operator of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, therefore it has the industrial expertise to share with Saudi Arabia, which the Kingdom needs to develop its aviation industry. Unlike the western suppliers which more often are extremely reluctant to share the critical aspects of technology, Pakistan will be willing to offer a full transfer of technology in all aspects of the program. By 2016 a majority of work on the JF-17 program will be carried out by PAC, including critical aspects like, structural, electronics, avionics, testing and evaluation as well as weapons integration.

The time of the visit is a critical factor to be noted as PAC has just recently rolled out the 50th JF-17 Thunder for the Pakistan Air Force and has started the production of an upgraded Block-II variant, featuring in flight refueling, enhanced avionics and self protection systems to name a few. PAC is also in the process of initiating a conceptual set of requirements for the Block-III variant which will be the most advanced of the JF-17 family. If the Saudi Arabia joins the program at this point in time, it will be possible to tailor the Block-III to the exact requirements of the RSAF.

By the this process, Pakistan will transfer its technology to Saudi Arabia as well as help its close friend develop its industrial potential in major aspects of aviation engineering which other suppliers are reluctant to offer. This would mean that the Kingdom would be able to acquire the knowledge, skills and the technology to a level where it can realize its dream of building an indigenous aviation industry. A joint research and development effort will also develop skilled professionals in Saudi Arabia to carry out future ventures.


A win win deal for both nations


Such a deal would not only be beneficial to the Saudi aviation industry, but also would become a lifeline for Pakistani aviation industry. If RSAF being a high end operator opts for a JF-17 variant, it would build confidence in the program and would become an export success as other nations would feel more confident to opt for the JF-17 platform. For Pakistani aviation industry, it would mark a good omen and would help Pakistan foster its aviation industry and be recognized as a reliable supplier of high end defense products.

Pakistan Air Force is an organization that has to operate in a high threat environment against heavy odds, including budgetary limitations. JF-17 sales would help PAF develop its capabilities further and opt for a joint venture with its most trusted ally the People's Republic of China for a 5th Generation stealth aircraft project, which PAF direly needs in order to effectively counter the growingly sophisticated threats posed by hostile air forces. Such a deal with Saudi Arabia will help PAF in bolstering its war fighting capabilities as well.


Strategic impacts on bilateral relations


Such a deal is more than likely to cement an already close relationship between the two countries. Both nations share a historic relationship that has stood the test of time. This deal, should it go through would mark ' a new era ' in Pakistan-Saudi Arabia defense cooperation as this program will come with a long term commitment. It would also help develop more synergy and interoperability between the PAF and RSAF. Over all such a deal will be a 'win win' for both friendly nations and would open up gates for further cooperation in defense industry sector.

__________________________________________________________________

Best Regards. Aeronaut.

Download this report in PDF format |

This piece was exclusively produced for Pakistan Defence
__________________________________________________________________

Useful, LINKS.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra
Saudi defence delegation leaves - DAWN.COM
Saudi delegation visits PAF Air Defence Command | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Ummah is proud of Pakistan’s defence production: Saudi Minister
Yemen Air Force delegation visits PAF academy, Air Weapon Complex and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com
Jordanian team visits PAC - thenews.com.pk
Iraqi commander visits Kamra

 

[MilSpec]

First issue with export potential of JF17 is the RD33 turbofan engine, in essence same as the saab viggen or the gripen faced.... If china can develop the replacement engine in time, it will increase the potential of export many folds.

Another hurdle for KSA sales would be functional AESA radar which would be expected for any future acquisitions.

In case of KSA, another issue lies with it's existing fleet of top notch equipment which is essentially payed by unending supply of oil, Thus KSA doesn't need an inexpensive fighter, they can afford to invest in next generation of aircraft's along with buying top of the line systems off the shelf and still have crap load of money to spare.

HI-LO mix of KSA with it's potential theater of conflict will mandate longer range Multirole a/c, EFT and F15 will make more sense than getting Saab Gripen and Jf17.

But there is an excellent synergy between the two countries in the sphere of military relations, which can be further more consolidated with the K8 karakoram and potentially a Lead In fighter trainer version of JF17. PAC and Saudi research can benefit enormously from a joint development relation or even a consortium of KSA/Pak-china arrangement.

 

[Kompromat]

First issue with export potential of JF17 is the RD33 turbofan engine, in essence same as the saab viggen or the gripen faced.... If china can develop the replacement engine in time, it will increase the potential of export many folds.

Another hurdle for KSA sales would be functional AESA radar which would be expected for any future acquisitions.

In case of KSA, another issue lies with it's existing fleet of top notch equipment which is essentially payed by unending supply of oil, Thus KSA doesn't need an inexpensive fighter, they can afford to invest in next generation of aircraft's along with buying top of the line systems off the shelf and still have crap load of money to spare.

HI-LO mix of KSA with it's potential theater of conflict will mandate longer range Multirole a/c, EFT and F15 will make more sense than getting Saab Gripen and Jf17.

But there is a an excellent synergy between the two countries in the sphere of military relations, which can be further more consolidated with the K8 karakoram and potentially a Lead In fighter trainer version of JF17. PAC and Saudi research can benefit enormously from a joint development relation or even a consortium of KSA/Pak-china arrangement.

Saudis have access to EJ-200. Powerplant should not be an issue for them should the Russians refuse to sale RD-93D, which i HIGHLY doubt they will as they will make cash out of it. If both options don't work, by the time the deal goes through the WS-13A would be ready, as Chinese are working very hard on getting their engines straight, they also need it for J-31, so i have got my hopes pinned on that one.

Overall - as i mentioned, this deal is a winner for both sides.

 

[MilSpec]

Saudis have access to EJ-200. Powerplant should not be an issue for them should the Russians refuse to sale RD-93D, which i HIGHLY doubt they will as they will make cash out of it. If both options don't work, by the time the deal goes through the WS-13A would be ready, as Chinese are working very hard on getting their engines straight, they also need it for J-31, so i have got my hopes pinned on that one.

Overall - as i mentioned, this deal is a winner for both sides.

EJ200 for EFT's and F100's for F15's that is it.... Just because India has access to AL31F's it cannot use them to retrofit a different project similarly, EADS will not let any third party use it's engines to power a competing aircraft.

If WS13A is ready in time it makes Jf17 as a viable export fighter, KSA as a client is doubtful, but other countries sure will figure in the list... imo

 

[Kompromat]

EJ200 for EFT's and F100's for F15's that is it.... Just because India has access to AL31F's it cannot use them to retrofit a different project similarly, EADS will not let any third party use it's engines to power a competing aircraft.

If WS13A is ready in time it makes Jf17 as a viable export fighter, KSA as a client is doubtful, but other countries sure will figure in the list... imo

Obviously at this stage nothing can be said for sure,as it would count as mere speculation. EJ-200 has been offered for export as a single item though. I have high hopes with WS-13, lets see how it develops.

 

[Chak Bamu]

WS-13's specs match RD-93 quite closely. Its weight (1135 vs 1055 kg) & diameter (1.02 vs 1.00 m) are slightly more, and its length is slightly less (4.1 vs 4.2 m) and JF-17 can easily accommodate it. WS-13 would require a little more airflow since it has a little higher by-pass ratio (0.57 vs 0.49), but hopefully that was considered during JF-17's design phase.

I doubt if the same can be said for EJ-200. Its diameter (0.74 m) is a lot less and would certainly require structural modifications to JF-17's engine compartment. This would also mean change in fuselage design. We would be looking at a multi-year testing process to say the least. Unless Pakistan has some hope of getting EF-200 for future blocks (IV, V?) there would hardly be any sense in investing time, money, & effort into such a major modification. Obviously this issue has a number-of-aircraft dimension as well in order to spread the cost of redesign. But I must say that EJ-200 opens up a number of mouth-watering options with increase in range, weapons load, and agility.

 

[My-Analogous]

Saudi Arabian interest in JF-17 Thunder, can cement the strategic defense relations with Pakistan. ​

View attachment 14064


A favorite destination


Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra ,is a busy place these days, because it has become a go to place for many Middle Eastern air forces to visit the manufacturing process and the products of the organization. Numerous high level, Middle Eastern air force delegations, including Jordanian, Iraqi, Yemeni and most recently the Royal Saudi Air Force delegation, have visited the PAC in Kamra. They expressed keen interest in the products and services offered by PAC, especially the JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter aircraft, which is the most high end product of PAC.

This week a high profile Saudi Arabian defense delegation lead by the Deputy Defence Minister Prince Salman bin Sultan bin Abdulaziz al Saud, visited Pakistan after the two countries agreed on 'enhanced defence ties' during a trip by Foreign Minister Saud al Faisal to Islamabad earlier. The two countries described the warming of bilateral defense ties as the beginning of a ‘new era in the strategic partnership’ between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

The delegation stayed in Pakistan for three days and was hosted at the General Headquarters of the Pakistan Army, Air Defence Command of Pakistan Air Force, Pakistan Ordnance Factories at wah and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra, the home of JF-17 Thunder aircraft. The Saudi defense delegation also included the members of the Royal Saudi Air Force, during the visit to the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. Reportedly, Saudi Arabia has expressed interest in joining the JF-17 program with Pakistan during the visit.


Royal Saudi Air Force is a high tech organization


The Royal Saudi Air Force, is one of the most advanced and professional air forces in the region which employs some of the most advanced fighter, attack and early warning aircrafts like the Boeing F-15 Eagle, F-15 Strike Eagle, Eurofighter Typhoon, Panavia Tornado and E-3 sentry. It has also recently ordered, much advanced F-15 SA aircraft from Boeing, which pack an advanced array of onboard systems like AESA radar and other upgrades like, signature enhancements, Infrared Search and Track, Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System and upgraded engines.


Benefits to the Royal Saudi Air Force

In that context the Saudi Arabian interest in the JF-17 Thunder program, might raise some eyebrows in certain countries and among certain experts. It must be understood that by expressing interest in the JF-17 Thunder program, the RSAF might be opting for a 'hi-lo mix' doctrine. The RSAF is operating its advanced fleet of fighter and attack aircraft for frontline duties, while the JF-17 might become its workhorse for training, conversion, Combat Air Patrol, Point Defence and Close Air Support, much like the Lockheed Martin F-16.

The JF-17 is a cost effective platform, with minimum operating and maintenance costs as compared to RSAF's front line fleet. It means that RSAF can save the airframe hours on its frontline jets as well as save on operating and maintenance costs by having its pilots fly the much cheaper and easier to maintain JF-17 Thunder aircraft. What also is noteworthy, is that the JF-17 Thunder will offer and 'open architecture' to RSAF for weapons and software integration, which means that the RSAF would have a level of freedom in open source weapons and software integration it has never enjoyed before. This feature will offer RSAF to integrate any open market weapon system, avionics and electronics it wants on its JF-17 fleet, giving it a great control over the platform to carry out a variety of missions.


Industrial benefits to Saudi aviation industry

Pakistan is the sole producer and operator of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, therefore it has the industrial expertise to share with Saudi Arabia, which the Kingdom needs to develop its aviation industry. Unlike the western suppliers which more often are extremely reluctant to share the critical aspects of technology, Pakistan will be willing to offer a full transfer of technology in all aspects of the program. By 2016 a majority of work on the JF-17 program will be carried out by PAC, including critical aspects like, structural, electronics, avionics, testing and evaluation as well as weapons integration.

The time of the visit is a critical factor to be noted as PAC has just recently rolled out the 50th JF-17 Thunder for the Pakistan Air Force and has started the production of an upgraded Block-II variant, featuring in flight refueling, enhanced avionics and self protection systems to name a few. PAC is also in the process of initiating a conceptual set of requirements for the Block-III variant which will be the most advanced of the JF-17 family. If the Saudi Arabia joins the program at this point in time, it will be possible to tailor the Block-III to the exact requirements of the RSAF.

By the this process, Pakistan will transfer its technology to Saudi Arabia as well as help its close friend develop its industrial potential in major aspects of aviation engineering which other suppliers are reluctant to offer. This would mean that the Kingdom would be able to acquire the knowledge, skills and the technology to a level where it can realize its dream of building an indigenous aviation industry. A joint research and development effort will also develop skilled professionals in Saudi Arabia to carry out future ventures.


A win win deal for both nations


Such a deal would not only be beneficial to the Saudi aviation industry, but also would become a lifeline for Pakistani aviation industry. If RSAF being a high end operator opts for a JF-17 variant, it would build confidence in the program and would become an export success as other nations would feel more confident to opt for the JF-17 platform. For Pakistani aviation industry, it would mark a good omen and would help Pakistan foster its aviation industry and be recognized as a reliable supplier of high end defense products.

Pakistan Air Force is an organization that has to operate in a high threat environment against heavy odds, including budgetary limitations. JF-17 sales would help PAF develop its capabilities further and opt for a joint venture with its most trusted ally the People's Republic of China for a 5th Generation stealth aircraft project, which PAF direly needs in order to effectively counter the growingly sophisticated threats posed by hostile air forces. Such a deal with Saudi Arabia will help PAF in bolstering its war fighting capabilities as well.


Strategic impacts on bilateral relations


Such a deal is more than likely to cement an already close relationship between the two countries. Both nations share a historic relationship that has stood the test of time. This deal, should it go through would mark ' a new era ' in Pakistan-Saudi Arabia defense cooperation as this program will come with a long term commitment. It would also help develop more synergy and interoperability between the PAF and RSAF. Over all such a deal will be a 'win win' for both friendly nations and would open up gates for further cooperation in defense industry sector.

__________________________________________________________________

Best Regards. Aeronaut.

Download this report in PDF format |

This piece was exclusively produced for Pakistan Defence
__________________________________________________________________

Useful, LINKS.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra
Saudi defence delegation leaves - DAWN.COM
Saudi delegation visits PAF Air Defence Command | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com
Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Ummah is proud of Pakistan’s defence production: Saudi Minister
Yemen Air Force delegation visits PAF academy, Air Weapon Complex and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra | PAKISTAN DEFENCE NEWS BLOG | Pakarmedforces.com
Jordanian team visits PAC - thenews.com.pk
Iraqi commander visits Kamra

To early to say something and few points to be consider.

1. SA is golden goose and US will want every single egg for his breakfast.
2. Chinese factor will be concerns to US and its alliance.
3. Russian Engine another factor and how can this problem will be address and which country will replace this?

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Saudi eyeing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet, modeled from U.S. F-16
Special to WorldTribune.com

ABU DHABI — Saudi Arabia has been examining the prospect of becoming a partner in Pakistan’s fighter jet program.

Officials said the Saudi Defense Ministry has been reviewing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet program.


Pakistani JF-17

The officials said representatives of the ministry as well as the Royal Saudi Air Force were examining the feasibility of procuring JF-17 as part of cooperation with Islamabad.

“This project could provide the kingdom with technology that could be used in future projects,” an official said.

On Jan. 20, Saudi Deputy Defense Minister Prince Salman Bin Sultan visited Pakistan and toured the JF-17 project, modeled after the U.S.-origin F-16 and which entered production in late 2013. Salman, hosted by Pakistani Chief of Staff Gen. Raheel Sharif, was said to have focused on enhanced defense cooperation, including training and an exchange of expertise.

“During the meeting, matters of mutual interest, regional security and
enhanced bilateral defense collaboration including training exchange program
were discussed,” an official statement said.

Pakistan has been deemed the leading strategic ally of Saudi Arabia.
Western diplomats said Pakistan, with assistance from China, has provided
ballistic missiles and non-conventional weapons expertise to the Gulf
Cooperation Council kingdom.

Officials said Pakistan has offered to supply the Saudi military with
aircraft, main battle tanks and submarines. They said the offer included
technology transfer as well as co-production in Saudi Arabia.

“The expectation is that Saudi purchases from Pakistan will increase
over the coming year,” the official said.

To early to say something and few points to be consider.

1. SA is golden goose and US will want every single egg for his breakfast.
2. Chinese factor will be concerns to US and its alliance.
3. Russian Engine another factor and how can this problem will be address and which country will replace this?

1. SA is golden goose and US will want every single egg for his breakfast.

KSA doesn't buy everything an X or Y state offers. If we need whatever equipment, it has to match our demands and standards, other than that we won't get everything we don't want, and we always get what we need.

If some country can offer something we need, we will let them to have the whole cake as long as they can give us the core of the Apple.

 

[Kompromat]

@Yzd Khalifa

You can have an entire god damn orchard.

 

[Superboy]

Saudi eyeing Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter jet, modeled from U.S. F-16
Special to WorldTribune.com

Modeled after F-16?

 

[Juice]

Saudis have access to EJ-200. Powerplant should not be an issue for them should the Russians refuse to sale RD-93D, which i HIGHLY doubt they will as they will make cash out of it. If both options don't work, by the time the deal goes through the WS-13A would be ready, as Chinese are working very hard on getting their engines straight, they also need it for J-31, so i have got my hopes pinned on that one.

Overall - as i mentioned, this deal is a winner for both sides.

Buying a jet that you have to deal with 3 different nations for parts would be a nightmare. "we will sell you these jets, but a different country makes the engines....you will depend on them too"

 

[bandit]

Buying a jet that you have to deal with 3 different nations for parts would be a nightmare. "we will sell you these jets, but a different country makes the engines....you will depend on them too"

Yea that limitation is conveniently ignored.

Obviously Russia would be thrilled to pass on engines to the Americam controlled regime in arabia.

 

[Superboy]

Yea that limitation is conveniently ignored.

Obviously Russia would be thrilled to pass on engines to the Americam controlled regime in arabia.

JF-17SA won't be powered by RD-93 but by EJ200 which Saudi Arabia already uses. The two engines are of similar size.

 

[Kompromat]

Closed for cleanup

 

[Kompromat]

Modeled after F-16?

F-16 was the inspiration for the JF-17

Buying a jet that you have to deal with 3 different nations for parts would be a nightmare. "we will sell you these jets, but a different country makes the engines....you will depend on them too"

Sir, Gripen, Tejas are using the US made engines, this is the new normal. KSA has access to EJ-200 or alternatively WS-13A would be ready by the time they would want the jet in service.