SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[mhosein]

The Chinese J-35/J-31 is the go to option for Pakistan Air Force IF this aircraft is permitted by China to Pakistan. As for going with the Turkish option, well that's got stupidity written all over it.

I said many years ago, J-10 was the way forward for Pakistan to wean itself off of the F-16 coolaid, today many years later, Pakistan Air Force has inducted J-10Cs.

 

[Silicon0000]

The Chinese J-35/J-31 is the go to option for Pakistan Air Force IF this aircraft is permitted by China to Pakistan. As for going with the Turkish option, well that's got stupidity written all over it.

I said many years ago, J-10 was the way forward for Pakistan to wean itself off of the F-16 coolaid, today many years later, Pakistan Air Force has inducted J-10Cs.

PAF always prefer "C" instead of "A"

 

[MajesticPug]

PAF always prefer "C" instead of "A"

"A" leads the characters "SS" as in pain in the A S S because of suspicions of kill switches, political infraction into Pakistan sovereignty, troubles of explaining yourself when an A missile is used, and possible sanctions when an "A" is not happy. F16's are flying coffins against the latest IAF Rafales anyway.

 

[NA71]

bhai kuch salaries ki fikar karo .... we don't have enough money for next month's salaries of Govt. employees , all mega industries have been shut down, Suzuki, Toyota, Kia, Honda, steel industries. textile industries, etc all closed .....and on PDF we are selecting FC-31 GREY FALCON

 

[lightning F57]

Is the Snow Owl a different plane to this. Any latest or rumoured specs around on this plane?

 

[TopGun786]

Here's the full one!

View attachment 908266

Is this real or CG?

 

[credence]

Is this real or CG?

Real. J35 will enter service next year with the new Fujian air carrier.

 

[Deino]

Real. J35 will enter service next year with the new Fujian air carrier.

Nope, he asked, if that image is real … it is clearly a CG.
The J-35 however as a fighter is indeed real even if it won’t enter service already next year

 

[Corax]

PAF will not buy J31 till:
A. The PLAAF/PLAN buy them.
B. Some other nation goes ahead and buys it.
5th generation technology is very complex and initial research outlay is huge. The teething troubles are also likely to be more and require expensive fixes. If PLAAF/PLAN/Others buy it, the cost outlays become divided and fixes have already been achieved lowering costs and outlays.
If PAF goes for TFX, the TUAF will bear some of the costs of these developments/fixes. As many posters have pointed out engine remains a bug bear for the TFX. However from the work share POV, it remains a much better option. The Chinese at this stage of their development will not share technology but rather sell products to PAF which increases cost of maintenance. Depot level maintenance/overhauling facilities will be provided if the order is large enough. However, the Chinese are very likely to become protective of their technology as it advances and might not let PAF service key components for fear of information leaking out.
A

Not necessarily true, the JF-17 hasn't been bought by the PLAF, and some previous Chinese platforms have been very PAF specific. Although the J-31/35 would make the most logical sense (in terms of third-party sanction risk and ToT), I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.

What ever ASR requirements PAF "has" - it has to "shred" them. PAF / Pakistan do not have the technical capabilities to design and deliver a fighter jet itself, let alone a "5th Gen" platform. So talk of having ASR that dont match either the TFX or J-31/5 are exercises of obsene sillyness. These 2 platforms are the only hope that PAF has of a 5th Gen Stealth fighter .. Period.

So - they need to decide which of the two they can "afford" to spend it's meagre resources on....

 

[Corax]

What ever ASR requirements PAF "has" - it has to "shred" them. PAF / Pakistan do not have the technical capabilities to design and deliver a fighter jet itself, let alone a "5th Gen" platform. So talk of having ASR that dont match either the TFX or J-31/5 are exercises of obsene sillyness. These 2 platforms are the only hope that PAF has of a 5th Gen Stealth fighter .. Period.

So - they need to decide which of the two they can "afford" to spend it's meagre resources on....

Yes, that is the ground reality the PAF has now recognised. But project Azm isn't completely dead. It was envisaged as an approach to establish competency in personnel and technology to meet future indigenous solutions, across a wide range of systems. The FGFA was but one component, albeit too ambitious. The groundwork is being laid to bear fruit, and it has to start from a low base. The PAF's indigenous C4I and Link 17 are but just a few examples of what it can do if it focuses on realistic targets.

But it's also worth considering that both the TFX and J-31/35 have developed and evolved to come close to meeting the PAF's ASR, and if either platform is selected, it will most definitely be heavily modified for PAF specs.

 

[araz]

Not necessarily true, the JF-17 hasn't been bought by the PLAF, and some previous Chinese platforms have been very PAF specific. Although the J-31/35 would make the most logical sense (in terms of third-party sanction risk and ToT), I think the PAF has a very specific air staff requirement (ASR) in mind for a fifth gen platform, and what it envisages as a future long-term development pipeline of the system. This is one of the main reasons why project Azam was initiated and why the PAF has been lukewarm towards both the TFX and J-31/35.

You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on existing Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
A

 

[Ali_Baba]

You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on existing Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
A

I have been following the J17 programme when it first started out as the Super 7 / Sabre programme and followed all its ups and downs and the commitment by China to also purchase the JF17 as an equal partner was "part of the business case to make the unit cost affordable" - but this does not get acknowledged by the chinese posters here who attempt to say that the programme was for "Pakistan only" etc. This is one of the main reasons why PAF has been luke warm on the whole J-31/35 programme(lessons learnt) - as PAF does not want to fund another development of a fighter programme (ie spend hundreds of millions of dollars ) for the chinese industry - it would much rather buy them off the shelf if the PLAAF/N take it seriously then use those "hundreds of millions" on unit procurement etc....

 

[Horse_Rider]

You do know that (at least) the PAF circles have openly and repeatedly admitted that there was a commitment from the Chinese to buy 250 units of JFT which they subsequently reneged on, based on changed requirements of the PLAAF ( Possibly also the success of the J10 which suited their requirements more). Other than that PAF has always asked for PAF specific requirements on existing Chinese platforms which the Chinese have very kindly obliged us on. The JFT story has always been refuted by Chinese posters but has been repeatedly mentioned by PAF sources and is in print. So if this statement stands true then your argument does not stand. Also to date there has not been much sale of PLAAF air platforms if PAF has not bought them. This may yet change in the future but stands true till now.
A

JFT is ONLY a PAF specific jet. Won't be used by China. In fact, per Chinese strategy, even the J-10 doesn't play a big enough role in the future so they are reducing it's future production to increase J-20's numbers instead through re-purposing the same manufacturing line. J-10's future with China would become more like internal and coastal defense. China's major threat scenario is around SCS, and there it will solely depend on heavies (both Flankers / J20/31, etc).

 

[Horse_Rider]

Yes, that is the ground reality the PAF has now recognised. But project Azm isn't completely dead. It was envisaged as an approach to establish competency in personnel and technology to meet future indigenous solutions, across a wide range of systems. The FGFA was but one component, albeit too ambitious. The groundwork is being laid to bear fruit, and it has to start from a low base. The PAF's indigenous C4I and Link 17 are but just a few examples of what it can do if it focuses on realistic targets.

But it's also worth considering that both the TFX and J-31/35 have developed and evolved to come close to meeting the PAF's ASR, and if either platform is selected, it will most definitely be heavily modified for PAF specs.

I've been saying it over and over. Pakistan MUST build it's strategic assets in house even at a limited ToT or assembly bases. Future wars will be long wars of attrition and you can't source "parts" or send your jets to China for "fixtures". We need local industry and buying a J-10C manufacturing line would do wonders for us. When our orders are finished, we turn the same manufacturing line into a "rebuild / sustainment" factory. We can retrain Mirage rebuild factory's crew and use our internal engineering graduates that are very smart and in numbers. Local assembly of J-10C will do wonders, will start a tech industry base in Pakistan also and we can support this platform during a conflict ourselves. Plus acquiring a manufacturing line that's achieved economies of scale would be cheaper now, vs. in Ten years when we'd need a "rebuild" factory.

On AZM, its dead (to build a local airframe), but it's still a project to study and acquire TFX through a partnership. With Akinci (EW / ISR/ CAP/anti ship) and KizilElma (CAP / anti ship roles only) combination and capability, it would make sense to go towards acquiring the TFX to maintain a combination that would work together and to support, we'd have gained knowledge and trained our people. CH series drones will be used by Pak Army for CAS / COIN / ISR, etc, linked with JFT and J-10C's, making another combination of 4+gen tech.