Russia's new Fire and forget missile Kornet-EM

[500]

Play with toys and don´t know how they work. If you knew, you would bot spread that nosense. And you want to talk for me...

I showed your complete ignorance in thermals. You can only call names.

If it needs to be guided after launch it is not fire and forget. What logic are you using?

Inertial guidance does not need to be guided you ignorant.

Hellfire is launched and guided until seeker comes close enought. Spike in NLOS blind and monitored through TV cam. C4I data? from third party system, as what, UAV, recon which are vulnerable? that´s from your own words. Spike as a system in NLOS has no location means by itself.

As I said many times in most of real combat situations its impossible to see target at ranged beyond 5 km thats why u need to use C4I data. Spike can do that. Korned-D does not. Of course when conditions are good u can use own thermal as well. Thats another example of great Spike flexibility.

lol. A Heat warhead against a building will do nothing but a hole and against infantry it is completely useless. What is needed is a thermorabic explosion with destroys a great area to be effective.

Hundreds of Palestinian terrorists were killed by "useless" heat warheads. Unfrtunately during second Lebanon war many Israeli soldiers were killed by useless heat warheads as well.

Contradiction again. SACLOS stands for semi-automatic laser guidance which Kornet is not.

Adding autotracker to Kornet-D does not change much in its performance. Only thing it changes that reduces human error factor. But everything else remains exactly the same: you shoudl stay in ligh of sign of the target during the whoule course of missile flight.

Depends of whatever the definition of fire and forget you have, which you seem to change often.

Now you also lie. Thats really pathetic. I did not change anything.

Search from elevated position, spot and destroy, lol, that easy. Unless you are in a mountain scenario but that is veeery rare.

Standing in lighn of sight on elevated positions means expose yourself. Plus in most of real situations

Except that you remain stationary for a long time while being under enemy fire. No problem.

In closed position u are very safe.

"Efficient engagement of aerial targets with Kornet-EM system is ensured due to combination of high precision guidance system and guided missile with thermobaric warhead equipped with impact and proximity target sensor and a flight range of 10 km"

Thermobaric warheads agaimnst areal targets? They can full only ignorants like you.

"The maximum flight range of the missile being equal to 10 km ensures Kornet-EM system’s advantage in fighting helicopters as it enables the system to fire from a stand-off distance."

Spike can also hit helicopters.

At long distances it is fire and retire after target destruction. In within enemy´s range mobility is very important.

Its in spike where u can mask urself after firing. In Kornet you should remain in light of sight with the target. You are slow understanding,

Yeah, how? it is not automatic so no missile interaction.

Losing LOS is very easy while driving. Especially at very long ranges. Again, you never been in amy military vehicle and dont have a clue whats that.

Equally safe is fire from standoff distance, but when enemy has you in range, for Spike vehicle it starts to be a disaster.

Driving wont help you against artillery and against Spike. But standing in closed position reduces chance to pe spotted and fired at hundreds times.

Exactly the same applies to Spike, but with an exception, Kornet-D in closer range is effective, Spike is junk.

* In closer ranges Spike is full fire and forget. Kornet is suicide.
* In longer ranges Spike fires from safe closed positions. Korned again exposed and very limited to terraion.
* More over when weather, dust and smoke conditions dont allow fire (for longer ranges it is almost always like this), Kornet does not work, while Spike can fly closely observe from above and hot.

With intelligence and location systems it is the same to fire to a hill, as behind it.

I repeat at long ranges you need to search very very hard to find unclosed position. Spike can fire from any of it. Kornet needs to be stationed in very specific places, which have long LOS range. All I need to protect my forces from long range Kornet is to fire arty at these specific places.

You do not have an idea of how thermal sights work, right? They work with infrared radiation which belongs to a different spectral band. So they are not always subject to distruptions which are in the visible range, as smoke. That´s why modern thermal sights work properly in bad weather conditions. You only prove ignorance.

I tried to teach you, but you insist on your ignorance.

Thermal sights indeed give a huge advantage over optical in poor weather conditions. But they are still affected. And they are affected a lot. For example if in clear air u see target from 5 km in thermal, in fog u will see from 1 km. But in same fog optic wont see even 50 m. 1 km is huge advantage over 50 m. Do u agree? But still thermal sight is very affected. If you dont believe me ask anyone who seen thermals.

If visibility is poor you cannot search properly from the start.

Yes if u are stand alone Libyan rebel but not in C4I army.

That proves that it is a poor design with zero firing mobility.

Mobility and design are awesome. Thats not LOS system.

If you think, then not. You make a sensor to be sensitive to a specific radiation range to not make it subject to false alarms. Make it sensitive to Kornet´s beam, and it is useless.

Specific radiaton range? What you are rambling there? hehe.

Kornet has a specific 4 colour channel which does not allow it to go out of the firer beam.

How can you stop laser from going out?

There are two variants. From short range used laser beam practically does not irradiate as explained. For longer range, see this vid from 7:53 seconds. A more powerfull beam is used to engage at higher range, so line of sight on the target is maintained, and the beam directed upwards to not alarm the tank. Missiles flies in loafted trajectory and hits avoiding any countermeasures.

Finally you realised that laser alarms the tank and affected by dust fog etc. But for that mode you need to lase the target to find its range. That alarms the target.

 

[mnd]

Inertial guidance does not need to be guided you ignorant.

It requires update if target is not stationary.

Using your logic, RPG-7 is not guided after launch, fire & forget. You do not think, or what?

As I said many times in most of real combat situations its impossible to see target at ranged beyond 5 km thats why u need to use C4I data. Spike can do that. Korned-D does not. Of course when conditions are good u can use own thermal as well. Thats another example of great Spike flexibility.

So Spike needs C4I to operate effectively, or without it is junk as I explained? If you have C4I, there are artillery rounds with self targeting seekers which are more effective.

Hundreds of Palestinian terrorists were killed by "useless" heat warheads. Unfrtunately during second Lebanon war many Israeli soldiers were killed by useless heat warheads as well.

I do not like to use real persons as example, but I´ll do. Recently a bus was hit with an anti-tank missile, died few (1-2?) people, which were in middle of Heat jet. If it was a thermorabic warhead, entire bus would be incinerated.

Heat warheads are of little use for anything which is not an armored vehicle.

Adding autotracker to Kornet-D does not change much in its performance. Only thing it changes that reduces human error factor. But everything else remains exactly the same: you shoudl stay in ligh of sign of the target during the whoule course of missile flight.

It greatly increases performance and missile interaction.

Now you also lie. Thats really pathetic. I did not change anything.

No:
500- What is fire and forget: "does not require further guidance after launch"
- "Spike allows to engage targets in NLOS, third gen"
- "I agree that generation is by performance, Spike..."
Ok, with your Hellfire statements you did not changed your definition, you just was ignorant.

Standing in lighn of sight on elevated positions means expose yourself. Plus in most of real situations

How expose? spot enemy, fire from standoff distance, abandon position after targets were destroyed.

In closed position u are very safe.

You are safe behind the hill. When enemy is on the hill, you are exposed. Where is your coherence?

Thermobaric warheads agaimnst areal targets? They can full only ignorants like you.

Ignorant is you, not KBP lol. A thermorabic explosion has a great effect explosion + It uses proximity fuse which means that even if you don´t hit, will explode and destroy target.

Spike can also hit helicopters.

With anti-tank warhead? with no proximity fuse? Good luck. lol.

Its in spike where u can mask urself after firing. In Kornet you should remain in light of sight with the target. You are slow understanding,

Again, no coherence. From 5-10km, Kornet is equally safe as Spike. In battle zone (enemy´s range) Kornet is effective, Spike a stationary target if it attempts to protect itself.

Losing LOS is very easy while driving. Especially at very long ranges. Again, you never been in amy military vehicle and dont have a clue whats that.

Semi-active guidance is effective while moving at 30km/hour in stable terrain, atleast with tanks. An automatic system is even better.

Out of enemy range, why you need to move at all?.

Driving wont help you against artillery and against Spike. But standing in closed position reduces chance to pe spotted and fired at hundreds times.

You fire and then abondon position, out of sight, what artillery? A stationary Spike would be vulnerable to artillery if spotted, and to aerial means, against which it cannot protect itself. Attack helicopters or UAVs which reveal your position.

* In closer ranges Spike is full fire and forget. Kornet is suicide.
* In longer ranges Spike fires from safe closed positions. Korned again exposed and very limited to terraion.
* More over when weather, dust and smoke conditions dont allow fire (for longer ranges it is almost always like this), Kornet does not work, while Spike can fly closely observe from above and hot.

- It is not. seeker has only 2.5km range, at the rest of ranges it is fired in semi-automatic mode, and cannot even move. Come close to 2.5km for a Spike vehicle is a pathetic form of suicide, and it could not fire on move anyway.
- It is the opposite. Spike will be easily found unless in mountains, unlikely. Kornet is made to exploit terrain, not to be limited use as Spike.
- Spike is even worse, it´s seeker would not distinguish nothing .

I repeat at long ranges you need to search very very hard to find unclosed position. Spike can fire from any of it. Kornet needs to be stationed in very specific places, which have long LOS range. All I need to protect my forces from long range Kornet is to fire arty at these specific places.

Spike is only effective on mountainous terrain, not between plains.

For the time Kornet stays on his position, figure out why artillery would not work.

I tried to teach you, but you insist on your ignorance.

Thermal sights indeed give a huge advantage over optical in poor weather conditions. But they are still affected. And they are affected a lot. For example if in clear air u see target from 5 km in thermal, in fog u will see from 1 km. But in same fog optic wont see even 50 m. 1 km is huge advantage over 50 m. Do u agree? But still thermal sight is very affected. If you dont believe me ask anyone who seen thermals.

Depending on which band it operates, it can be more or less be affected by weather depending on that. I am not familiar with Kornet´s thermal and how it operates, but it is 3rd gen and it is said to be capable of seeing through smoke, so...

It is you that do not know operating principle, and make stupid conclusions. What thermal? What spectral band? You did not think about that.

Mobility and design are awesome. Thats not LOS system

.
You again contradicted yourself. "It is very effective at close ranges"...

Even the picture contradicts you. It is clearly seen a rangefinder/thermal mounted on it, which is LOS... Pitty that it cannot move when firing.

Specific radiaton range? What you are rambling there? hehe.

Made to detect specific radiation levels (not anything).

How can you stop laser from going out?

That is nosense/I do not understand that question. Laser stops to emit or what?

Finally you realised that laser alarms the tank and affected by dust fog etc. But for that mode you need to lase the target to find its range. That alarms the target.

In short range no problem. In long range you need a more powerfull beam, so goes with loafted trajectory. Laser is also sufficiently powerfull to go through smoke in case there is.

No, rangefinders are never pointed to the target for obvious reason, but to an object close to it to figure it´s range. Then a guidance beam is used in indirect form.

 

[500]

It requires update if target is not stationary.

Tank is not a jet it does not go far, ignoramus.

Using your logic, RPG-7 is not guided after launch, fire & forget. You do not think, or what?

RPG-7 is fire and forget, of course. But effective range is little.

So Spike needs C4I to operate effectively, or without it is junk as I explained? If you have C4I, there are artillery rounds with self targeting seekers which are more effective.

Every modern weapon needs C4I to operate effectively. Without it its still much more effective than Kornet.

I do not like to use real persons as example, but I´ll do. Recently a bus was hit with an anti-tank missile, died few (1-2?) people, which were in middle of Heat jet. If it was a thermorabic warhead, entire bus would be incinerated.

There was only one person in that bus thats only reason why there was one casualty.

Heat warheads are of little use for anything which is not an armored vehicle.

No HEAT weapons are very deadly if guided accurately.

It greatly increases performance and missile interaction.

No, it only reduces human error factor thats all. With well trained gunner there will be no difference at all.

No:
500- What is fire and forget: "does not require further guidance after launch"
- "Spike allows to engage targets in NLOS, third gen"
- "I agree that generation is by performance, Spike..."

I stand for each of these statements. Where do u see change here?

Ok, with your Hellfire statements you did not changed your definition, you just was ignorant.

No, u were ignorant.

How expose? spot enemy, fire from standoff distance, abandon position after targets were destroyed.

Thats the problem. That you need to expose yourself during guidance. Thats typical 1-2 gen. Changing position after target is destroyed can even Sagger.

You are safe behind the hill. When enemy is on the hill, you are exposed. Where is your coherence?

I repeat slowly. In typical terrain LOS range is fewer than 5 km in 95% of cases. Therefore in order to protect my force from long range LOS missiles all I need to do is fire arty at these 5% of places. However if you want to protect from NLOS missile u should fire at all 100%. Because it can stand everywhere. Understand now?

Ignorant is you, not KBP lol. A thermorabic explosion has a great effect explosion + It uses proximity fuse which means that even if you don´t hit, will explode and destroy target.

No one in the world uses thermobaric warheads against aerial targets. And no one advertises SACLOS anti tank missiles as super duped air defence.

With anti-tank warhead? with no proximity fuse? Good luck. lol.

You seriously believe that helicopter can suvive direct hot of heat warhead?

Again, no coherence. From 5-10km, Kornet is equally safe as Spike. In battle zone (enemy´s range) Kornet is effective, Spike a stationary target if it attempts to protect itself.

No it does not. Because to fire Kornet from 5-10 km you need to search very specific places and stay in LOS. Spike u can fiure from everywhere.

Semi-active guidance is effective while moving at 30km/hour in stable terrain, atleast with tanks. An automatic system is even better.

If you have long LOS range that means it is top of some hill and not plain terrain.

Out of enemy range, why you need to move at all?.

Thats what I am saing, why in need to move when u are in closed position?

You fire and then abondon position, out of sight, what artillery?

You cant leave the sight during the missile flight.

A stationary Spike would be vulnerable to artillery if spotted, and to aerial means, against which it cannot protect itself. Attack helicopters or UAVs which reveal your position.

There will be zillion vehicles how u cna know which is Spike? It does not stand in LOS. And after firing u can change position: you have 95% of terriain at your choice.

- It is not. seeker has only 2.5km range, at the rest of ranges it is fired in semi-automatic mode, and cannot even move. Come close to 2.5km for a Spike vehicle is a pathetic form of suicide, and it could not fire on move anyway.

Let me sum up:

2.5 km is very typical range for most of engagements. Kornet is very vulnerable Spike fire and forget and more light too.
2.5-4 km is more safe for Kornet. This is only niche where Kornet does not fall very short from the Spike. Since it is cheap its quite a good choice.
On the other hand Spike LR is two times lighter, more versatile and safe. So its simply ideal, although more expensive.
Long ranges are limited to terrian weather, dust, smoke. Kornet almost never will be able to use these ranges in real situation. This is just PR stunt for Kornet.

- It is the opposite. Spike will be easily found unless in mountains, unlikely. Kornet is made to exploit terrain, not to be limited use as Spike.

I repeat: Kornet can use only 5% of terrain, Spike 100% of terrain. Which is harder to find?

- Spike is even worse, it´s seeker would not distinguish nothing .

Spike has thermall seeker too.

Depending on which band it operates, it can be more or less be affected by weather depending on that. I am not familiar with Kornet´s thermal and how it operates, but it is 3rd gen and it is said to be capable of seeing through smoke, so...

You dont familiar with anythng. You just throw silly claims.

It is you that do not know operating principle, and make stupid conclusions. What thermal? What spectral band? You did not think about that.

3-5, 8-12 um. Does not matter. All are VERY affected by smoke forg dust etc. You said very stupid thing and repeated it several times. Very embarassing. WHy dont u admit mistake.

You again contradicted yourself. "It is very effective at close ranges"...

Sure Spike is very effective at close ranges.

Even the picture contradicts you. It is clearly seen a rangefinder/thermal mounted on it, which is LOS... Pitty that it cannot move when firing.

Range finder and thermal are used to search targets independently. Once u find target, you can hide behind a hill and launch missile.

Made to detect specific radiation levels (not anything).

Your radiation levels are perfectly known to us. In fact lasers have only few very specific wavelength.

That is nosense/I do not understand that question. Laser stops to emit or what?

You claimed that nonsense that laser beam is stopped.

In short range no problem. In long range you need a more powerfull beam, so goes with loafted trajectory. Laser is also sufficiently powerfull to go through smoke in case there is.

First you claim its low poeverd now u claim its very powerful And even if your laser goes through, u still need to see the target to be able to guide.

No, rangefinders are never pointed to the target for obvious reason, but to an object close to it to figure it´s range. Then a guidance beam is used in indirect form.

Terrian gives weaker return than armor, especially at long ranges will be problematic to measure + mistake can be very big.

 

[nightcrawler]

 

[mnd]

Tank is not a jet it does not go far, ignoramus.

It is moving and especially at long ranges seeker can lock on wrong target if missile does not receive update. Long range is stated as lock after launch so that violates your fire and forget principle.

RPG-7 is fire and forget, of course. But effective range is little.

Fire and forget terminology applies to missile guidance. RPG is not missile but a rocket.

Every modern weapon needs C4I to operate effectively. Without it its still much more effective than Kornet.

Not every. And C4I can not always be available. Without it Spike fires blind.

There was only one person in that bus thats only reason why there was one casualty.

Then that was a wrong example.

No HEAT weapons are very deadly if guided accurately.

A HEAT effect zone is very limited and innefective against infantry formations which require a big damage zone.

No, it only reduces human error factor thats all. With well trained gunner there will be no difference at all.

It also guides several missiles which are in interaction very efficiently, work which can be of high load for operator. It improves operation of the system.

I stand for each of these statements. Where do u see change here?

"Does not have active seeker, regular 2nd gen missile", "Spike is 3d gen missile, fires in NLOS.

I can say: Spike is just manual command, 1st gen missile, but that would make me the same absurd as you.

Thats the problem. That you need to expose yourself during guidance. Thats typical 1-2 gen. Changing position after target is destroyed can even Sagger.

Thats the problem with Spike, you need manual command guidance, thats typical 1st gen.

From long range it is more than enought until enemy can target you. Hypotetical artillery would not have time to react.

I repeat slowly. In typical terrain LOS range is fewer than 5 km in 95% of cases. Therefore in order to protect my force from long range LOS missiles all I need to do is fire arty at these 5% of places. However if you want to protect from NLOS missile u should fire at all 100%. Because it can stand everywhere. Understand now?

I did not understand, how you calculated those percentages, ah, you got them from your arse, which starts to get funny here. Did you know, that 85% of people makes up percentages to apparent interest?

What a funny hypotetical scenario, from where that is? because that is not how it works here in the rest of the world.

You seriously believe that helicopter can suvive direct hot of heat warhead?

Here is Kornet:
"The use of proximity target sensor guarantees reliable engagement of aerial targets at any range. Combined with high explosive warhead the target proximity sensor makes it possible to compensate possible misses by destruction of UAV (or helicopter) by overpressure, if miss does not exceed 3 m."

Spike with no proximity sensor and small explosion effect Heat will be of little use.

No it does not. Because to fire Kornet from 5-10 km you need to search very specific places and stay in LOS. Spike u can fiure from everywhere.

They are deployed in ideal way, on the offensive or to ambush.

Spike fires blind from everywhere.

If you have long LOS range that means it is top of some hill and not plain terrain.

Stable terrain means stable, no bumps, etc. Altitude is irrelevant. And at long range, you do not need to move.

Thats what I am saing, why in need to move when u are in closed position?

When you are not, and in range, it is a problem.

You cant leave the sight during the missile flight.

You do not need to at long range.

There will be zillion vehicles how u cna know which is Spike? It does not stand in LOS. And after firing u can change position: you have 95% of terriain at your choice.

Same applies to Kornet. When Spike is in enemy range, it is death with no defense possibility.

Let me sum up:

2.5 km is very typical range for most of engagements. Kornet is very vulnerable Spike fire and forget and more light too.
2.5-4 km is more safe for Kornet. This is only niche where Kornet does not fall very short from the Spike. Since it is cheap its quite a good choice.
On the other hand Spike LR is two times lighter, more versatile and safe. So its simply ideal, although more expensive.
Long ranges are limited to terrian weather, dust, smoke. Kornet almost never will be able to use these ranges in real situation. This is just PR stunt for Kornet.

Vulnerable with ability to fire two missiles while on move? Spike is vulnerable for sure, it does need to remain static to fire and process is longer.

Agree, that Kornet is also superior in that niche.

Spike LR as man portable system is more flexible, but cost and complexity does not make it ideal choice for big army. But we are discussing vehicle based systems here.

Weather affects everybody, but with laser guidance and sight it will always have standoff range in comparison to enemy.

I repeat: Kornet can use only 5% of terrain, Spike 100% of terrain. Which is harder to find?

Kornet can exploit 95% of terrain to it´s advantage. Spike the other 5% which is mountanous which systems like Kornet cannot exploit. On the rest it is of no use.

Spike has thermall seeker too.

Which requires high contrast, especially since it is a cheap low quality single use sensor. With weather it will have problems to aquire/distinguish.

You dont familiar with anythng. You just throw silly claims.

3-5, 8-12 um. Does not matter. All are VERY affected by smoke forg dust etc. You said very stupid thing and repeated it several times. Very embarassing. WHy dont u admit mistake.

You do not know basic principle of infrared detectors.

It is true that they encompass a part of visible radiation, which can be of lower or higher trascendence depending on the band you operate.

Weather and smoke can affect vision, but they do not block infrared emissions, so you can see despite their presence.

Performance of a thermal camera (and it´s range) is based on the amount of radiation emitted by the target, contrast, and their optical setting (sensibility, image quality)

Modern, especially third gen cameras, produce images of high quality and contrast, are more sensible and overall much better performing. So they can be used with very high effectiveness in battle, especially in adverse weather conditions.

So when there are official statements as this, on Kornet performance:

The use of the laser beam control system with a large energy potential and the thermal sight ensures practically full immunity to active and passive interference (such as smoke screens), In the smoke screen environment, the operator observes the battlefield through a thermal sight, while the see-and-fire principle is implemented due to a high energy potential of the laser beam control channel.

It is justified to believe them. Countering the argument by saying "I have seen through a thermal camera, blah blah..." without even knowing the basic concept (and what specifficaly have you used), is a stupid thing you´ve done.

Sure Spike is very effective at close ranges.

Lateral missile setting which cannot be directed, no ability to firing on move, effectiveness is very limited.

Range finder and thermal are used to search targets independently. Once u find target, you can hide behind a hill and launch missile.

Sure, in close range (to 5km) under enemy fire, you perform that long process... and do not find a place to hide.

Your radiation levels are perfectly known to us. In fact lasers have only few very specific wavelength.

It is about their power and sensibility needed to detect them. Kornet beam is way weaker even as compared to earlier guidance beams, level of irradiation is similar to reflection of third lasers. Make a system sensible to detect that, and it will be giving constant false alarms.

You claimed that nonsense that laser beam is stopped.

I said, Kornet missile cannot be interfered by another laser, as you implied, because it has a 4 color channel which prevents that.

First you claim its low poeverd now u claim its very powerful And even if your laser goes through, u still need to see the target to be able to guide.

Kornet laser beam is stated to have a great power resource. It is low or high powered in function of need.

You maintain sight on target, but laser beam automatically goes in a trajectory to avoid to alarm the target.

Terrian gives weaker return than armor, especially at long ranges will be problematic to measure + mistake can be very big.

It is not problem to rangefinders which are high powered. You do not need 100% acurracy, but to make an idea of at what range it is and if you are able to engage it. Mistake of few meters is irrelevant, especially at long ranges.

 

[500]

You do not know basic principle of infrared detectors.

It is true that they encompass a part of visible radiation, which can be of lower or higher trascendence depending on the band you operate.

Weather and smoke can affect vision, but they do not block infrared emissions, so you can see despite their presence.

Performance of a thermal camera (and it´s range) is based on the amount of radiation emitted by the target, contrast, and their optical setting (sensibility, image quality)

Modern, especially third gen cameras, produce images of high quality and contrast, are more sensible and overall much better performing. So they can be used with very high effectiveness in battle, especially in adverse weather conditions.

So when there are official statements as this, on Kornet performance:

Well there is no point to argue with ignorant kid who is unable to recognize any of his mistakes. I know from my personal experience how thermals are affected by fog and dust and rain etc. Go ask anyone u used thermals.

So let me summarize again:

short range
Spike MR vs Javelin vs Metis-M.

Spike and Javelin have huge advantage thanks to fire and forget. Range is also 25% more. Also lofted attack increases chances for destruction. Thats why no one buys Metis-M.

medium range
Spike LR vs TOW 2B vs Kornet.

Spike is lightest. That allows to carry 2-3 times more missiles. Also Spike's fiber optic communication allows to fire from safe closed positions and hit hiden targets.
TOW and Kornet are about 2 times cheaper. From medium distance even LOS missile is relatively safe. Thats why most of countries still use these missiles.
Kornet has more range, TOW has top attack and not emmiting guidance.

long range
Spike ER, Tamuz, Kornet-D

Spike ER and Tamuz are effective and very safe missiles which can hit targets with extreme precision at long ranges (very long for Tamuz). LOS guided Kornet-D wont be able to use its declared range in 99% of real combat sitations. Because of terrain, weather, smoke, dust... Its declared mobility is also useless: its impossible to use at long ranges and totally uneccessary (because u still should remain in LOS with the target anyway). Overall Kornet-D is nothing but repacked Kornet. Just like Nvidia GeForce 9800GT is a repacked 8800GT

 

[mnd]

Well there is no point to argue with ignorant kid who is unable to recognize any of his mistakes. I know from my personal experience how thermals are affected by fog and dust and rain etc. Go ask anyone u used thermals.

I am not who is arguing with officiall statements, and what is more ridicolous, thermal vision concept because he claims to have "played" with something once.

So let me summarize again:

short range
Spike MR vs Javelin vs Metis-M.

Spike and Javelin have huge advantage thanks to fire and forget. Range is also 25% more. Also lofted attack increases chances for destruction. Thats why no one buys Metis-M.

You left Kornet out.

Neither Spike nor Javelin can engage moving targets in lofted trajectory mode, or in fire and forget. No top-attack there, you cannot prove otherwise. Against moving targets, they are much weaker than counterparts Metis or Kornet. No range difference with Kornet. Seeker has disadvantages when aquiring targets.

medium range
Spike LR vs TOW 2B vs Kornet.

Spike is lightest. That allows to carry 2-3 times more missiles. Also Spike's fiber optic communication allows to fire from safe closed positions and hit hiden targets.
TOW and Kornet are about 2 times cheaper. From medium distance even LOS missile is relatively safe. Thats why most of countries still use these missiles.
Kornet has more range, TOW has top attack and not emmiting guidance.

Tow is vehicle based, not mobile.

Agree, but Kornet does not emit to target and I showed many times how it is guided. Has also optical countermeasures resistance, for example against Shtora, which is passive.

long range
Spike ER, Tamuz, Kornet-D

Spike ER and Tamuz are effective and very safe missiles which can hit targets with extreme precision at long ranges (very long for Tamuz). LOS guided Kornet-D wont be able to use its declared range in 99% of real combat sitations. Because of terrain, weather, smoke, dust... Its declared mobility is also useless: its impossible to use at long ranges and totally uneccessary (because u still should remain in LOS with the target anyway). Overall Kornet-D is nothing but repacked Kornet. Just like Nvidia GeForce 9800GT is a repacked 8800GT

Spike ER is nothing but repacked Spike
These kind of systems have also their disadvantages. For example TV guidance and manual search is not desirable. In addition Spike vehicle cannot be used at close ranges. Tamuz has 20km range and operates with intelligence, yes, that´s also good, but it is not an ideal long range system.
A slow missile which spends a great time on flight, coming from 20km is vulnerable against tactical level formations. Contrasts with Hermes which is supersonic missile. Not saying Tamuz is not effective, it is, but not the best you can have.

Kornet is made to take advantage of terrain, and it is versatile, effective in short and long ranges and against infantry and aerial targets. Overall, Kornet is a more effective system than single mission Spike.

 

[500]

I am not who is arguing with officiall statements, and what is more ridicolous, thermal vision concept because he claims to have "played" with something once.

You insist to be a clown. As u wish.

You left Kornet out.

For short range Kornet is even more useles than Metis-M, because its two times more heavy.

Neither Spike nor Javelin can engage moving targets in lofted trajectory mode, or in fire and forget. No top-attack there, you cannot prove otherwise. Against moving targets, they are much weaker than counterparts Metis or Kornet. No range difference with Kornet. Seeker has disadvantages when aquiring targets.

I already provided u a video. No one in the world buys Metis-M, despite its much cheaper.

Tow is vehicle based, not mobile.

LOL.

Agree, but Kornet does not emit to target and I showed many times how it is guided. Has also optical countermeasures resistance, for example against Shtora, which is passive.

Shtora can save only against old uncoded missiles. Kornet does emit.

Spike ER is nothing but repacked Spike
These kind of systems have also their disadvantages. For example TV guidance and manual search is not desirable.

Its excellent, since it allows to hit any target you wish (not just vehicles) with extreme precission.

In addition Spike vehicle cannot be used at close ranges.

Where from u got that nonsense?

Tamuz has 20km range and operates with intelligence, yes, that´s also good, but it is not an ideal long range system.
A slow missile which spends a great time on flight, coming from 20km is vulnerable against tactical level formations. Contrasts with Hermes which is supersonic missile. Not saying Tamuz is not effective, it is, but not the best you can have.

Its 25 km and its best for simple reason that no one has anything like this. And Tamuz are already replaced with improved versions.

Kornet is made to take advantage of terrain, and it is versatile, effective in short and long ranges and against infantry and aerial targets. Overall, Kornet is a more effective system than single mission Spike.

As I said, Kornet-D range can be used only in 1% of scenarios in best case.

 

[mnd]

You insist to be a clown. As u wish.

You look like obsessed with that, it is you, not me?.

For short range Kornet is even more useles than Metis-M, because its two times more heavy.

Kornet-MR is light and portable as Metis.

I already provided u a video. No one in the world buys Metis-M, despite its much cheaper.

You proved nothing. You showed two videos, on one target was static, on the other the same but Spike was TV guided, not fire & forget.

There are more Metis-M produced than Spike. No army will take Spike in replacement on other systems. Your India bought 15000 Konkurs-M missiles.

LOL.

Tow-2B you are comparing is deployed only on vehicles.

Shtora can save only against old uncoded missiles. Kornet does emit.

Kornet can emit, sadly, not towards it´s target.

Its excellent, since it allows to hit any target you wish (not just vehicles) with extreme precission.

Expensive missiles with camera and seekers, Heat, against infantry? You will loose war just because you gonna be ruined.

Where from u got that nonsense?

You can try everything. Spike vehicle in close range has no performance. Missiles are placed at one side?

Its 25 km and its best for simple reason that no one has anything like this. And Tamuz are already replaced with improved versions.

Missile of that kind overlaps the niche of artillery and other systems, which can be useful or not. There are artillery projectiles with self search more effective than Tamuz, whose missile at that ranges is vulnerable. A justification to use Spike (and Hermes) is that there are several variants of missile in different roles, so there is unification and costs saving. But again, Tamuz compared to that is worse in performance.

But configuration is the same, no?.

As I said, Kornet-D range can be used only in 1% of scenarios in best case.

Spike can only be used when enemy cannot make use of terrain, which is even less likely.

 

[500]

You look like obsessed with that, it is you, not me?.

Simply its example ur ur extreme ignorance. But insist to repeat it on and on. Thermals are not radars they are very affeced by weather and smoke. Thats why mm radars are actually introduced.

Kornet-MR is light and portable as Metis.

It does not even exist. Anyway it would not change anything since its old SACLOS system.

You proved nothing. You showed two videos, on one target was static, on the other the same but Spike was TV guided, not fire & forget.

You dont understand simple thing that for missile which travels at speed 150 m/s tanks speed is virtually nothing.

There are more Metis-M produced than Spike. No army will take Spike in replacement on other systems.

Only contry which bought Metis-M is poor isolated Syria. Some 30 countries bought Spike and Javelin.

Your India bought 15000 Konkurs-M missiles.

Konkurs-M is 26.5 kg missile with range of 4 km. Its heavy missile, same class with TOW and Kornet. You only proved my point that 4 km is enough for LOS missiles.

Tow-2B you are comparing is deployed only on vehicles.

There is no any difference in operation between TOW-2B and TOW-2A. We did not buy TOW-2B because TOW-2A is more than enough to us. Can you show any ground units carrying Kornet?

Kornet can emit, sadly, not towards it´s target.

It does emit towards target.

Expensive missiles with camera and seekers, Heat, against infantry? You will loose war just because you gonna be ruined.

Again you are talking about things that you have no clue about. Heat missiles were employed very effectively against infantry here by both IDF and Hezbollah.

You can try everything. Spike vehicle in close range has no performance. Missiles are placed at one side?

That was Tamuz missile with range of 25 km. Tamuz misisles dont go to front line. Here Spike ER:

Missile of that kind overlaps the niche of artillery and other systems, which can be useful or not. There are artillery projectiles with self search more effective than Tamuz, whose missile at that ranges is vulnerable. A justification to use Spike (and Hermes) is that there are several variants of missile in different roles, so there is unification and costs saving. But again, Tamuz compared to that is worse in performance.

* Tamuz cant be force for simple reason that it exists and Hermes is only 3d model.
* Artillery needs heavy expensive vehicles. Tamuz can be launched from Jeep.
* If self search mode was so effective there would not be need in rounds like Krasnopol at all. Tamuz combines the accuracy of Krasnopol with no need of external laser targeting like self search rounds. Tamuz can also attack buildings and infantry.

Spike can only be used when enemy cannot make use of terrain, which is even less likely.

The opposite. Spike flies from above. Impossible to hide from it behind the terrain.

 

[mnd]

Simply its example ur ur extreme ignorance. But insist to repeat it on and on. Thermals are not radars they are very affeced by weather and smoke. Thats why mm radars are actually introduced.

You can use them with effectiveness. Active seekers are way worse in bad weather.

It does not even exist. Anyway it would not change anything since its old SACLOS system.

Kornet now does not exist for you?

You dont understand simple thing that for missile which travels at speed 150 m/s tanks speed is virtually nothing.

From 2.5 km? And those missiles do not travel directly, they spend most of the time climbing to the top, then slow, and and go down afterwards. Process is too long for a seekr that´s why you will never see top trajectory against targets in move.

Only contry which bought Metis-M is poor isolated Syria. Some 30 countries bought Spike and Javelin.

None of them replaced older systems with Spike or Javelin, except US which replaced rubbish Dragon.

Konkurs-M is 26.5 kg missile with range of 4 km. Its heavy missile, same class with TOW and Kornet. You only proved my point that 4 km is enough for LOS missiles.

Super flexible Spike LR was supposed to be able to fire from 4km, seems it´s capabilities were over publisied.

There is no any difference in operation between TOW-2B and TOW-2A. We did not buy TOW-2B because TOW-2A is more than enough to us. Can you show any ground units carrying Kornet?

To launch TOW-2B from older plattform may require a change in configuration, modified missile frame, is different. It is only for deployement in vehicles, as announced by Raytheon.

Kornet, I think I showed you videos.

It does emit towards target.

Explain how.

Again you are talking about things that you have no clue about. Heat missiles were employed very effectively against infantry here by both IDF and Hezbollah.

You could, but that´s no way to go. Even back in the XVIII century they had dedicated fragmentary munition against infantry...

Hezbollah either way was using mostly old and cheap missiles. A 100000$ Spike missile is a no.

That was Tamuz missile with range of 25 km. Tamuz misisles dont go to front line. Here Spike ER:

That Spike version is supposed to mask and appear as innofensive vehicle? Here is Kornet-D:

And static fire in front line is of no use, as Spike does.

* Tamuz cant be force for simple reason that it exists and Hermes is only 3d model.
* Artillery needs heavy expensive vehicles. Tamuz can be launched from Jeep.
* If self search mode was so effective there would not be need in rounds like Krasnopol at all. Tamuz combines the accuracy of Krasnopol with no need of external laser targeting like self search rounds. Tamuz can also attack buildings and infantry.

- Nothing prevents you from buying Hermes if you need.
- Well, expensive... Smerch, Grad are deployed in trucks, newer Tornado is unified, so further cost reduction. Tamuz uses a unified missile and is multiplattform, that is the only feature.
- Krasnopol is a gun artillery round wich is different from rocket launch systems in operation. They are different projectiles made for different systems.
Smerch, Grad use self search missiles with high effectiveness.

You are comparing Tamuz with artillery and rocket launchers in versatility, which is funny. Tamuz is justified in the role because missile is unified and there are already other variants in operation.

Krasnopol is not self-search as you stated.

The opposite. Spike flies from above. Impossible to hide from it behind the terrain.

In shorter ranges it is less likely to remain hidden from the enemy, he can take an elevated position, or by air means. From 25km missile will be seen from distance and is vulnerable, artillery is more effective.
8-15km is the ideal for such system.

 

[500]

You can use them with effectiveness. Active seekers are way worse in bad weather.

No. In fog you wont see beyond 2 km. Spike allows u to come close and see.

Kornet now does not exist for you?

Kornet-MR does not exist.

From 2.5 km? And those missiles do not travel directly, they spend most of the time climbing to the top, then slow, and and go down afterwards. Process is too long for a seekr that´s why you will never see top trajectory against targets in move.

Missile climbs in couple seconds, what moving would change?

None of them replaced older systems with Spike or Javelin, except US which replaced rubbish Dragon.

man portable systems are replaced. You still dont understand the difference between man portable and heavy missiles like Konkurs, TOW and Kornet etc.

Super flexible Spike LR was supposed to be able to fire from 4km, seems it´s capabilities were over publisied.

Of course it does. Spike LR is unique weapon that weights like light but has range of heavy.

To launch TOW-2B from older plattform may require a change in configuration, modified missile frame, is different. It is only for deployement in vehicles, as announced by Raytheon.

There is nothing that prevents using TOW-2B by infantry.

Kornet, I think I showed you videos.

No you did not show any infantry unit with Kornet. Kornets which were sold are used on vehicles:

Show me Kornet in infantry unit

Explain how.

I already explained.

You could, but that´s no way to go. Even back in the XVIII century they had dedicated fragmentary munition against infantry...

Fragmentation munition is needed for artillery which has accuracy of +-100 m. When you fire a missile like Spike with accuracy of 30 cm u dont need fragments to kill. Making different missiles only reduces ur flexibility. Actually for urban combat we made special DIME warheads which reduce collateral damage.

Hezbollah either way was using mostly old and cheap missiles. A 100000$ Spike missile is a no.

Kornet is only two times cheaper than Spike-LR. And this is despite differences in vages.

That Spike version is supposed to mask and appear as innofensive vehicle? Here is Kornet-D:

If we talk about frontline vehicles then they all look offensive. If we talk about rear vehicles then Tamuz vehicle I showe is fine.

And static fire in front line is of no use, as Spike does.

Spike is either fire and forget or fires from closed positions. Nothing more safe than this. Your so called mobility is just cheap PR stunt for ignorants like u.

- Nothing prevents you from buying Hermes if you need.

except that it does not exists. Since Hermes is for sell, there is no any reason on earth to hide test videos and pics.

- Well, expensive... Smerch, Grad are deployed in trucks, newer Tornado is unified, so further cost reduction. Tamuz uses a unified missile and is multiplattform, that is the only feature Krasnopol is a gun artillery round wich is different from rocket launch systems in operation. They are different projectiles made for different systems.

Why you need Krasnopol if you have magic self guded systems? Because self guided have low accuracy especially against masket targets and cant guide on buildings and infantry.

Tamuz combines the accuracy of Krasnopol with no need of laser designating. And in additions it can be used on light jeeps.

You are comparing Tamuz with artillery and rocket launchers in versatility, which is funny. Tamuz is justified in the role because missile is unified and there are already other variants in operation.

I compare Tamuz with Krasnopol. Both have same exactly role. But Tamuz does not need designation and does not need heavy artillery system.

 

[mnd]

No. In fog you wont see beyond 2 km. Spike allows u to come close and see.

Depends on fog density, and camera quality. Spike seeker will distinguish sh$t.


Kornet-MR does not exist.
By what conclusion

Missile climbs in couple seconds, what moving would change?

Seeker does not see while climbing. By the time it sees, Target is in another position, even if not much, seeker needs a clear designation to aquire, and even so, can lock to another object. You will not find any video to prove otherwise.

man portable systems are replaced. You still dont understand the difference between man portable and heavy missiles like Konkurs, TOW and Kornet etc.

Most who bought Spike did not aquired light versions.

Of course it does. Spike LR is unique weapon that weights like light but has range of heavy.

Heavy have longer range + powerfull warhead + cheaper.

There is nothing that prevents using TOW-2B by infantry.

Infantry TOW-2B does not exist . That is how you talk.

No you did not show any infantry unit with Kornet. Kornets which were sold are used on vehicles:

Show me Kornet in infantry unit

I already explained.

You only said it emits, but that has no sense because beam is not directed against target.

Fragmentation munition is needed for artillery which has accuracy of +-100 m. When you fire a missile like Spike with accuracy of 30 cm u dont need fragments to kill. Making different missiles only reduces ur flexibility. Actually for urban combat we made special DIME warheads which reduce collateral damage.

Reduction of collateral damage is suitable for infantry weapons in close fight, but at long ranges it is the opposite, bigger destruction zone,

Kornet is only two times cheaper than Spike-LR. And this is despite differences in vages

.
I was talking about single missile cost, not launcher. Absurdly costly. And you want to use them against infantry.

And Kornet is way cheaper.

If we talk about frontline vehicles then they all look offensive. If we talk about rear vehicles then Tamuz vehicle I showe is fine.

A Kornet-D can be taken as an unarmed "jeep" when moving or acompaining formations and will not be given priority over other subjects.

Spike is either fire and forget or fires from closed positions. Nothing more safe than this. Your so called mobility is just cheap PR stunt for ignorants like u.

Closed position in close range? Even if it´s fire & forget it needs to stop to fire and cannot do it on the move. Easy target.

except that it does not exists. Since Hermes is for sell, there is no any reason on earth to hide test videos and pics.

Hermes was shown in several exhibitions already. And figures both in KBP and Rosoboronexport catalogues.

Why you need Krasnopol if you have magic self guded systems? Because self guided have low accuracy especially against masket targets and cant guide on buildings and infantry.

Krasnopol is gun projectile, self guided are from rocket launchers, understand? Against builduings and infantry you logically fire specialised munition than waste 100 thousand dollars missile

I compare Tamuz with Krasnopol. Both have same exactly role. But Tamuz does not need designation and does not need heavy artillery system.

Both Tamuz and Krasnopol need earlier target location, on one form or another. Tamuz is not more self-sufficient.

 

[500]

Depends on fog density

Finally u realised that fog does affect thermal. Seems u searched or asked someone.

and camera quality. Spike seeker will distinguish sh$t.

Israel is one of world leaders in thermals Russia is third world.

Kornet-MR does not exist.
By what conclusion

You does not exist.

Seeker does not see while climbing. By the time it sees, Target is in another position, even if not much, seeker needs a clear designation to aquire, and even so, can lock to another object. You will not find any video to prove otherwise.

Lets say we fire at 2 km. During 2 sec of climbing 30 km/h tank will move at 17 m. Thats less than half grad. warhead wont even notice.

Most who bought Spike did not aquired light versions.

On contrary. Almost everyone bought light versions.

Heavy have longer range + powerfull warhead + cheaper.

Thats true thats why they are still used together with Spike ER.

Infantry TOW-2B does not exist . That is how you talk.

Kornet does not exist either.

These are just trainings/show. Show me actually infantry unit which carries Kornet on their backs. U wont be able.

You only said it emits, but that has no sense because beam is not directed against target.

It does. Only specialized Kvartet modules have laser range finders. Simple Kornet (like on pics above) does not have.

Reduction of collateral damage is suitable for infantry weapons in close fight, but at long ranges it is the opposite, bigger destruction zone,

If we needed to incease damage we would made it. But HEAT are powerful enough because they are very accurate. In some cases they are even too powerful.

I was talking about single missile cost, not launcher. Absurdly costly. And you want to use them against infantry.

And Kornet is way cheaper.

Me too. Kornet missile is only two times cheaper than Spike.

A Kornet-D can be taken as an unarmed "jeep" when moving or acompaining formations and will not be given priority over other subjects.

In order to fire Korne D should put them out and stand on high hill in lighn of sight with the target.

Closed position in close range? Even if it´s fire & forget it needs to stop to fire and cannot do it on the move. Easy target.

Closed position at ranges 2.5 km+. At shorter ranges fire and forget.

Hermes was shown in several exhibitions already. And figures both in KBP and Rosoboronexport catalogues.

Everything was shwn is plastic launcher of air launched Hermes.

Krasnopol is gun projectile, self guided are from rocket launchers, understand?

Why do u need Kransopol at all? Tamuz is for same reason but it does not need laser targeting and it can be launched from a jeep.

Against builduings and infantry you logically fire specialised munition than waste 100 thousand dollars missile

What specialized munition u can use at 25 km?

Both Tamuz and Krasnopol need earlier target location, on one form or another. Tamuz is not more self-sufficient.

Every long range munition needs recon info. But Krasnopol needs also illimination with laser. Illumination is done ether by special force, UAV, helicopter. But all this is complicated, not always available, risky, alarms the target. Tamuz on the other hand can guide by itself, thats why its is far far more self sufficient than Krasnopol.

 

[PERSIAN GOD KING]

LoL it is clearly marketed for Iran and Hizboullah.... Now I bet Israelis are going..."Noooooooo my poor trophy "

Really? since iran cant buy anything from russia due to the ban on selling selling weapons to iran, russia would be stupid to manufacture these for iran wouldnt you agree. besides saudi or uae will probably get in line for these.