Russian fighter jet intercepts 2 US bombers over Baltic Sea (PHOTOS)

[Cell_DbZ]

Indeed, confuse the Ukranians and westerners. Don't want to show Russians invading. Thanks for pointing that out.

And not to confuse the Crimeans, like you assumed before, glad you saw it.

Nope, the Syrians protested. Then later on some Syrian units turned against their own. Even now there is still fighting going on.

And the Crimeans didn't.

Overestimating Russian involvement? NEVER!

Allright then...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

Like I said earlier, some western sources gladly spout around what the Ukrainians spout around. Not that I am denying Russian involvement, I just like to not overestimate (or underestimate) it.

The Kremlin denies sending troops into the conflict in east Ukraine, but Russian relatives of those who have served and died across the border tell a different story
----------------------------------------------------------------
Remember that the Russians claimed there had never been any Russian soldiers in Ukraine. Before Putin admitted there were. And also those who were captured and admitted they were Russian soldiers.

I'm sure those fall under the 'advisers' and 'volunteers' Russia has been sending (and even a few tanks), if we're to believe the Ukrainians (and the western sources citing them) we are talking about several thousand of those. But that's the Ukrainians talking, they are even less relaible than the Russians when it comes to 'news', or CNN, because at least we know that Russian media is state owned, thus propaganda of their perspective can be expected.

 

[Oldman1]

And not to confuse the Crimeans, like you assumed before, glad you saw it.


And the Crimeans didn't.

Crimeans were Ukrainians at the time. They didn't support election for annexation until after the Russian invasion under disguise. Not before.

Allright then...


Like I said earlier, some western sources gladly spout around what the Ukrainians spout around. Not that I am denying Russian involvement, I just like to not overestimate (or underestimate) it.


I'm sure those fall under the 'advisers' and 'volunteers' Russia has been sending (and even a few tanks), if we're to believe the Ukrainians (and the western sources citing them) we are talking about several thousand of those. But that's the Ukrainians talking, they are even less relaible than the Russians when it comes to 'news', or CNN, because at least we know that Russian media is state owned, thus propaganda of their perspective can be expected.

Overestimate, underestimate, just the fact the Russians are involved.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Crimeans were Ukrainians at the time.

Crimeans never indetyfied themselves as Ukrainians, they remained with Ukraine only after they were assured more autonomy. But yes de jure they are Ukrainians, but not de facto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

They didn't support election for annexation until after the Russian invasion under disguise. Not before.

Nope, never even said that. They did support the annexation itself, because not 1 shot was fired, not even today. I haven't seen any (serious) anti-Russian protests on Crimea since it's annexation.

Overestimate, underestimate, just the fact the Russians are involved.

Yes, didn't deny that. There's a difference between saying they are flat out invading or having a proxy war/hybrid war, however.
Eastern Ukrainians are the main fighting force, not the Russians themselves.
It appears you seem to acknowledge that.

 

[Oldman1]

Crimeans never indetyfied themselves as Ukrainians, they remained with Ukraine only after they were assured more autonomy. But yes de jure they are Ukrainians, but not de facto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991


Nope, never even said that. They did support the annexation itself, because not 1 shot was fired, not even today. I haven't seen any (serious) anti-Russian protests on Crimea since it's annexation.


Yes, didn't deny that. There's a difference between saying they are flat out invading or having a proxy war/hybrid war, however.
Eastern Ukrainians are the main fighting force, not the Russians themselves.
It appears you seem to acknowledge that.

I remember seeing people getting burned in a building in Ukraine over protests.

Course they use pro Russian fighters to fight the war. Don't want to experience too many casualties either dead or wounded or captured.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

I remember seeing people getting burned in a building in Ukraine over protests.

In Crimea? No doubt that both sides have done crimes like that (pro-west vs por-Russia)

Course they use pro Russian fighters to fight the war. Don't want to experience too many casualties either dead or wounded or captured.

Or maybe the Eastern-Ukrainians are picking up arms themselves? Russians are supporting them, but they picked up arms themselves before the Russians saved them from defeat. (What chance would a militia stand against a government, supported by the west, without the aid?)

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Crimeans never indetyfied themselves as Ukrainians, they remained with Ukraine only after they were assured more autonomy. But yes de jure they are Ukrainians, but not de facto.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991


Nope, never even said that. They did support the annexation itself, because not 1 shot was fired, not even today. I haven't seen any (serious) anti-Russian protests on Crimea since it's annexation.


Yes, didn't deny that. There's a difference between saying they are flat out invading or having a proxy war/hybrid war, however.
Eastern Ukrainians are the main fighting force, not the Russians themselves.
It appears you seem to acknowledge that.

There were not a lot of open protests against the East German regime either.

Russia has a lot of experience in keeping people quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...oning-crimean-tatars-in-psychiatric-hospitals

If they started an insurgency, then it is likely to end up in a Chechnian situation.

The Crimeans are certainly not happy about the situation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/crimeans-still-tigerish-over-split-with-ukraine

 

[Oldman1]

In Crimea? No doubt that both sides have done crimes like that (pro-west vs por-Russia)


Or maybe the Eastern-Ukrainians are picking up arms themselves? Russians are supporting them, but they picked up arms themselves before the Russians saved them from defeat. (What chance would a militia stand against a government, supported by the west, without the aid?)

Picked up arms themselves before Russians saved them from defeat? No what we saw were Russian troops going in disguise before that. But in any case, the Russians attempt is to annex Crimea.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

In Crimea? No doubt that both sides have done crimes like that (pro-west vs por-Russia)


Or maybe the Eastern-Ukrainians are picking up arms themselves? Russians are supporting them, but they picked up arms themselves before the Russians saved them from defeat. (What chance would a militia stand against a government, supported by the west, without the aid?)

If I remember correctly, this incident was when pro-Russians attempted a coup in Odessa,
but were stopped by local pro revolution football supporters.

There are satellite images showing batteries of artillery, and companies of armour
beeing brought into Eastern Ukraine.
It is not just the odd tank.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

There were not a lot of open protests against the East German regime either.

Russia has a lot of experience in keeping people quiet.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...oning-crimean-tatars-in-psychiatric-hospitals

Well, Eastern-Germans were fleeing the country en masse and were protesting, before beign put down.

If they started an insurgency, then it is likely to end up in a Chechnian situation.

Wait and see untill this happens, we could be waiting a long time.

The Crimeans are certainly not happy about the situation.

Nope, they are indeed struggling, also with the Ukrainians cutting electricity. Now democracy is further gone too.
They still support beign part of Russia, however.
Even the Guardian has to admit the Crimeans still support Russia, even when they are attempting to propagate otherwise. I can probably give Russian sources as well, but then you'll question the relaibility.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/crimeans-still-tigerish-over-split-with-ukraine
a few more western sources who have to admit the Crimeans still prefer Russia:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...on-collapse-25th-anniversary-russia/95419178/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-want-to-join-russia/?utm_term=.2e5ba93c6ebd
https://euobserver.com/foreign/138129

And in mainland Russia there has been protests various times (recently against corruption), even those were not put down (until they were trying to go places that were illegal, if you do this in Belgium, the protest would be put down too).
And about the Tatars, yes they can be indeed be called the main opposition group, at least in 2014, the Russians are silencing opposing groups like the Mejlis, but the Tatars are not beign singled out; all opposition is, as I said earlier, democracy is not easily found. If anything, the Russians have done their best to ease fear, for example the president of Tatarstan has been sent to Crimea to assure the Tatars.
As far as freedom of speech goes, the Crimeans propably don't have it all too great. To say Tatars are beign opressed for just beign Tatars, is bs.
Ukraine is to blame for a big part as many Tatars still live illegally on Crimea (and before that the Soviet Union), the Russians are apparantly trying, something the Ukrainians should have bothered to do so, now the Ukrainians are using the Crimeans as weapons.
https://www.rferl.org/a/1063760.html
The Russians are attempting to give Tatars land, if that has succeeded by now, we can only guess.
https://sputniknews.com/world/20140319188544777-Crimean-Tatars-Will-Have-to-Vacate-Land--Official/

 

[Cell_DbZ]

Picked up arms themselves before Russians saved them from defeat? No what we saw were Russian troops going in disguise before that

Yes, Russian have supported the seperatist before that, I was just saying that (most) of the heavy equipment came later.
What I was trying to say is that the Eastern Ukrainians are the main fighting force and that most of their equipment came from Ukrainian stocks. If they wouldn't be picking up arms, the Russians could not have been meddling in the first place is all I'm saying.

If I remember correctly, this incident was when pro-Russians attempted a coup in Odessa,
but were stopped by local pro revolution football supporters.

I think I might remember such an incident, but I don't this can be used to say that a serious amount of Crimeans are resisiting, or that there have been many protestors, obviously there's never going to be unity.
Not even the Russians would be able to supress protests if there would be many of them.

There are satellite images showing batteries of artillery, and companies of armour
beeing brought into Eastern Ukraine.
It is not just the odd tank.

Not defending the Russians here, but this not an invasion.
Never denied that Russia sent heavy equipment, but not with a massive numbers, at least not big enough to call it an invasion
Russian might have even given direct artillery support
Your're talking about these?

Take note, the bottom 2 are located in Russia, not Ukraine.