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Russia ties frigate to sub - Deal link worries New Delhi ahead of Modi visit

Rangila

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Russia ties frigate to sub

New Delhi, Dec. 21: Ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia on Wednesday, India's most dependable military hardware supplier has made sale of naval warships and platforms to India contingent on the lease of a second nuclear submarine.

New Delhi is still interested but the cost of refitting and upgrading the Akula II class submarine, probably called the Iribis, and the conditions that Moscow has laid down are deeply worrying.

Earlier too, Russia has linked military purchases to the sale of a strategic platform - the Indian Navy's flagship aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya. India had contracted the carrier - earlier known as the Gorshkov - in 2004 for a price of about $2.4 billion after a decade of negotiations. Russia had made the sale of the refurbished Gorshkov contingent on the purchase by India of 16 MiG29K/Kub fighter aircraft to be based on the carrier. Russia itself was not operating the aircraft at the time.

Now, Moscow has said the lease of a third nuclear submarine would shape the warships that would be sold to India, if New Delhi agrees. These ships are a follow-on order for three more Talwar (or Krivack)-class stealth frigates - taking the number of such vessels in the Indian naval fleet to nine - and two deep submergence rescue vessels (DSRVs), defence ministry sources said.

The DSRVs are a crying need for the navy - just as the lease of the second nuclear submarine is - because India's fleet of underwater boats is vastly depleted. At the same time, India is working to roll out six submarines and testing its own nuclear submarine, the Arihant SSBN.

The only nuclear submarine in service with the Indian Navy is the INS Chakra, originally the K-152 Nerpa, that was also leased from Russia in 2012 for 10 years for an estimated $900 million. The cost has never been officially confirmed. The INS Chakra is an SSN (sub-surface nuclear) attack submarine. The Arihant, being built with Russian help, is an SSBN, meaning it would be capable of firing nuclear-tipped missiles apart from being nuclear-propelled.

India first leased a nuclear submarine from Russia for three years in 1988. The Charlie-class submarine, also called the INS Chakra, was studied by Indian naval designers and nuclear scientists to fashion the Arihant.

For the Talwar-class frigates, the Pipavav shipyard - now owned by Anil Ambani - is said to have been shortlisted by the Russians. But the deal is yet to go through because while New Delhi is insisting on a "Make in India" policy, the Russians have argued that the new weaponry and systems that have to be integrated with the ships require them to be built in a Russian shipyard.

An 18-member delegation of business leaders and executives from both the private and public sectors is expected to be in Moscow during Prime Minister Modi's visit. Among them Anil (Reliance ADAG group), Baba Kalyani (Bharat Forge) and Suvarna Raju (Hindustan Aeronautics) have direct interest in defence ties with Russia.

On India's request for the DSRVs, Moscow has informed New Delhi that one would be built in Russia's Admiralty Shipyards. India has asked for the second to be built in an Indian yard, preferably Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam. Russia has stationed one DSRV in Vizag for the trials of the Arihant SSBN.Apart from Russia, India is also dependent on the US for rescue if one of its ageing submarines were to run into trouble with their crew under water. India has a contract with the US under which America is expected to fly a rescue vessel within 71 hours of reporting such an incident.

In August 2013, India's Russian-origin kilo-class submarine, the INS Sindhurakshak, sank at the naval dockyards in Mumbai, killing the crew of 18 who were readying for a patrol.

Ministry sources said they were hopeful an agreement would be reached during Modi's trip on having around 200 Kamov 226T light-utility helicopters built in India with Russian help. The helicopters are meant for the army and the air force.
 
It is always a challenge when you have so many options. It becomes much easier when you only have a few. It would be a no-brainer when you have none. :)

India narrow it down to Rafale. But it still can't get it done. Unless India get its acts together, it will keep on failing not only developing weapons, but buying them as lol. It can even buy weapons properly as of now.
 
Russia is about to sign one of biggest defense deal, at a time when they under sanctions and desperate for money.

U can buy A only if u buy B. This is just a sale tactics . It's called "up-selling". PAK-FA is important to India just as important as MTA. Which is extremely important to India as well. I'm sure between this year and the next year, Russians will get a lot business from India.

They also know, India can now procure defense equipment pretty much from anywhere.

They need INDIA, more than India needs them. Therefore expect India to get pretty much anything they want.

I'm also expecting India and Russia to focus and upgrade their trade relationship.
 
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India narrow it down to Rafale. But it still can't get it done. Unless India get its acts together, it will keep on failing not only developing weapons, but buying them as lol. It can even buy weapons properly as of now.
The challenge is that no matter what you choose, some guys will always try to discredit your choice by pointing at other available alternatives. You would be tired of perpetual explanation soon. As democratic country, someone has to play the hero for the greater good. Make the decision, push it through and bear all the blames. No good deeds will go on unpunished.
 
Russia is about to sign one of biggest defense deal, at a time when they under sanctions and desperate for money.

U can buy A only if u buy B. This is just a sale tactics . It's called "up-selling". PAK-FA is important to India just as important as MTA. Which is extremely important to India as well. I'm sure between this year and the next year, Russians will get a lot business from India.

They also know, India can now procure defense equipment pretty much from anywhere.

They need INDIA, more than India needs them. Therefore expect India to get pretty much anything they want.

I'm also expecting India and Russia to focus and upgrade their trade relationship.

India need Russia just as much. Since India rejected f-35 program, it's only option is PAKFA.
 
India need Russia just as much. Since India rejected f-35 program, it's only option is PAKFA.


PAK-FA is russian, FGFA, is a joint venture. And it is a done deal. Design work has finalized. Now we need to sign the next deal, that will be all technical, choosing what the Indians want on their jet. Once that part is done they will start to build prototype. Which will be built in Russia but tested by Indians at home. There will be 3 prototypes and then finally production will start.

I'm hoping for the first prototype to arrive in India before 2020. Each prototype will take approximately 18 months of testing before getting the next one.

Expect final product to be ready for induction by 2027.
 
India narrow it down to Rafale. But it still can't get it done. Unless India get its acts together, it will keep on failing not only developing weapons, but buying them as lol. It can even buy weapons properly as of now.

Source: Russia ties frigate to sub - Deal link worries New Delhi ahead of Modi visit
The aquisition process is actually very good. They generally drawo out the best weapon. End of it comics down to politics sinc EVERY govt. in India has had issues with BIG ticket purchases. However, all these deals generally have a very thought out strategic element. The Su-30MKI assembly in India either goes bust making MKI or evolves into T-50MKI. So there are using money wisely exp. compared to the neighbours. Its easy to buy the weapons rather then training and changing tactics to employ the new weapons. Suadi Arabia has a large military with out much knowledge in its use. Malaysia, and even the PLA's pruchase of 500+ flankers with out the AWACs and tankers to support them.
I for 1 actually agree on limited purchase of Rafales for strategic use. Whats more interesting is the BMP-2 pruchase, which India already has lic. prod is paid for. What is this BMP-2 purhcase for? New model or does it also include modernization plan for Indias current fleed BMP-2.

India need Russia just as much. Since India rejected f-35 program, it's only option is PAKFA.

Source: Russia ties frigate to sub - Deal link worries New Delhi ahead of Modi visit
F-35 would never replace the PAK-fa. The Pak-Fa or T-50 is built on the current flanker assembly, hence the resemblance.
What India pays for on the Pak-Fa will be for the Indian version of it.
India also does not NEED russia. India is NOT china which has a single over priced vendor. The relations between India's elite and Russia elite is pretty deep. Thats clear. T-50 is winner the moment the Russians announced it. Why? Because they are the only ones that have a alternative to American technology. Thats a need.
 
PAK-FA is russian, FGFA, is a joint venture. And it is a done deal. Design work has finalized. Now we need to sign the next deal, that will be all technical, choosing what the Indians want on their jet. Once that part is done they will start to build prototype. Which will be built in Russia but tested by Indians at home. There will be 3 prototypes and then finally production will start.

I'm hoping for the first prototype to arrive in India before 2020. Each prototype will take approximately 18 months of testing before getting the next one.

Expect final product to be ready for induction by 2027.
Don't you think this timeline is something that will be a nightmare for IAF??
 
PAK-FA is russian, FGFA, is a joint venture. And it is a done deal. Design work has finalized. Now we need to sign the next deal, that will be all technical, choosing what the Indians want on their jet. Once that part is done they will start to build prototype. Which will be built in Russia but tested by Indians at home. There will be 3 prototypes and then finally production will start.

I'm hoping for the first prototype to arrive in India before 2020. Each prototype will take approximately 18 months of testing before getting the next one.

Expect final product to be ready for induction by 2027.

Source: Russia ties frigate to sub - Deal link worries New Delhi ahead of Modi visit
Russians have to step up on the delivery of the engines. Airframe is not an issue, its very good. Engines are the trouble. They need to allow it to atleast fly at near same ceiling as the Raptor. Only the Mig-31 has comparable flight performance.

Don't you think this timeline is something that will be a nightmare for IAF??

Source: Russia ties frigate to sub - Deal link worries New Delhi ahead of Modi visit
You got a better idea for heavy combat aircraft? The Russians understand their airframe better than Indians or Chinese. If you have Flanker assembly its best to evolve it. Overall, this will be cheaper than the initial purchase of the MKI in some ways.
 
Don't you think this timeline is something that will be a nightmare for IAF??

I'm sure they are hoping it could be faster, but they also know it can't be be done any faster.
There is a,so another worry for IAF, if in any case the economic crisis pickup, it will be a huge setback for them.

Lets hope Mr Rajan is as good as ever one they say he is.

Don't you think this timeline is something that will be a nightmare for IAF??

I'm sure they are hoping it could be faster, but they also know it can't be be done any faster.
There is a,so another worry for IAF, if in any case the economic crisis pickup, it will be a huge setback for them.

In that case Mr. Rajan comes into play, worlds economist says he's one of the best.


Lets hope Mr Rajan is as good as ever one they say he is.
 

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