@Penguin would these Project 11356 frigates require some significant customisations for IN service given they have been designed for RuN service thus far? Not only would they have to be configured to operate in tropical rather than cold water conditions but they would require the internals to be complient with IN standards.
I know the Talwars were basically the same deisgn but they were intended from day one to be in Indian service and built accordingly to such specification.
The Talwar was designed for the IN, so in that sense geared to its specs from the get go.
I'm looking at
http://www. bharat - rakshak .com/NAVY/weapons/specs/180-talwar-class.html
Electrical Power
: Provided by four 1 MW
Wartsila WCM-1000 generator sets with
Cummins KTA50G3 engines and
Kirloskar 1MV AC generators.
Radar: a
Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A radar set is used for short-range navigation and surface surveillance.
Is is possible the Russians have used domestic products in place of these products from Denmark, US and India. Then again, these are commercially available products, and if the ships aren't yet fully fitted out changes can still be made relatively easily. Or you can simply accept that there are some non-standard items and swap them out eventually e.g. by regular maintnance moments or MLU.
One potential area where bigger changes might be needed:sonar
Some reports indicate that the BEL APSOH (Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull) hull-mounted sonar is fitted on the vessels. The APSOH sonar performs active ranging, passive listening, auto tracking of targets and classification. Other reports indicate that the BEL HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) sonar is fitted. The HUMSA is a panoramic medium-range active/passive sonar system developed by the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL). This however corresponds to the sonar fit of the P16A Brahmaputra class.
Information released from the Severnoye Design Bureau (SDB) indicate that French towed array sonars (TAS) are also fitted. This is very plausible given that many Indian Navy ships now use French TAS, however INS Talwar shows no signs of such a system. The vessel may also have a SSN-137 VDS (Variable Depth Sonar), providing active search with medium frequency.
The Admiral Grigorovich Class is equipped with an [unspecified] hull mounted sonar, SNN-137 towed active array sonar. The hull mounted sonar - if already fitted - may well be Russian. The 22350 Gorshkov class uses Zarya M hull sonar, Vinyetka towed array sonar.
Tropicalisation shouldn't be an issue: it's fitting some extra or more powerfull cooling units (airco) mostly.
Much would depend on at what stage of construction a deal would be struck: the earlier the better (esp where fitting out is concerned)
India has defence ties with both Russia and Ukraine so perhaps could by the frigates, send them to Pipavav and contract with Ukraine seperatly and have the engines fitted in India. A win win for all sides.
That's the idea. I'm sure that Ukraine can use the business.
the engines issues aside
help me out with a little confusion here.
- Russia and India have long history of close military ties
- China and Russia have similar views and agreement vs west on some issue & I guess Russia sympathises with China on south China sea conflict.
- America is prepping India against China in south China sea conflict
- India is among the anti china club in those waters.
so if 2 is correct then does this sale not contradict Russia china partnership against the west?
No. India traditionally has taken the position of non-aligned country. I would expect it remains doing so. Though it will have to counterbalance the Chinese military modernization and potential expansionist tendencies.
Refusal of advertising descent "Admiral Butakova" looks natural, because the fate of the second trio of modified frigates of Project 11356 for the Russian fleet is now under question, because of lack for them of the main gas turbine power plants production Nikolaev State Enterprise "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" undelivered for these vehicles due to the events in Ukraine. Because of this, completion of two frigates laid second three, most likely, it will be suspended after the descent of the water (and the descent itself is required mainly for the release of stocks of the plant).
So, it's 2 ships, which are not yet fitted out.
In June 2014 the order of the State Service of Export Control of Ukraine suspended the export licenses of military goods to the Russian Federation. In connection with this work commissioned for the "Amber" at the Research and Production Complex "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" were discontinued. Gas turbine DS-71 and DT-59 M7N first unit (designed for frigate "Admiral Butakov") at the time were made Nikolaev now, but bench tests conducted were gone. All equipment was suspended and sent into the production storage.
What does this mean? Ukraine no longer producing the GTu's ? Or just put the GTu's and parts for these ships in storage.
If propulsion cannot be had from Ukraine, and Russia will give priority fo fit Russian propulsion to its own units first, the the possibility of fitting alternative propulsion needs to be considered. India license produces LM2500
DS-71 Gas turbine engine UGT 6000 - Eurotransgaz Corporation KFT
DT-59 Gas turbo generator UGT 16000 - Eurotransgaz Corporation KFT
