Russia lifts embargo on weapons supplies to Pakistan

[cabatli_53]

I don't know whether or not Mi-35 is a suitable platform for Pakistani requirements but I saw two of Mi-35 flying side by side on low altitude. It is for sure that They are like a less maneuvrability huge elephant with a big rotors on top which makes it an open target for any type of enemy. Militants armed with proper munitions, can easily down this huge armed (+carrying tens of soldiers) copters. A Pakistani Mi-35 which was shot down by militants (I hope Allah protect all brave Pakistani and Turkish pilots from such an insident), will cost much more than a classic tandem seated medium armed attack helicopters in terms of financial and emotional damages to your nation. This copter is designed to meet requirements of soviet times but Current requirements of wars on rotor crafts aims to stay mostly away of hot/unknown areas but carry out long range/silent surveillance/reconnaissance capability to mostly engage detected targets without being detected. That's why many nations are developing cost effective 2,75 inch missiles and milimetric wave radars which has capability of detecting moving targets from 40km ranges. Without situation awareness/protection, Rotor crafts can't survive against an intelligent enemy. It is no important How armour protected mentioned rotorcraft is. Look at Russian forces in Afghanistan war. They lost around 75 of Mil-35 like copters in there, Despite huge firepower advantages of them against their modest armed enemy...

 

[Dazzler]

this deal aims at "coin" operations, hind offers the best bang for the buck, great protection and suitable fire power+ night fight capability, canbe readily supplied from stocks. key word is COIN here. lastly, it doesnt cost us an arm and leg like atak will.

 

[cabatli_53]

this deal aims at "coin" operations, hind offers the best bang for the buck, great protection and suitable fire power+ night fight capability, canbe readily supplied from stocks. key word is COIN here. lastly, it doesnt cost us an arm and leg like atak will.

What does underlined section mean? I didn't get it Sorry.

 

[Dazzler]

What does underlined section mean? I didn't get it Sorry.

it means hind is too affirdable compared to other options yet brings better protection and fire power+ troops carrying facility.

 

[Donatello]

What does underlined section mean? I didn't get it Sorry.

Russian weapons are cheaper compared to their Western counterparts, plus this chopper is pretty rugged and simple in construction. Don't need to beg the USA for spares and support and get congress approval everytime you need an upgrade. I'd say it is a very good deal for the role they are being procured.

On a side note, what irony......Talibunnie hunted the Mi24s back in the day, and now Mi24s will hunt them. Hmmph.

 

[Dazzler]

Russian weapons are cheaper compared to their Western counterparts, plus this chopper is pretty rugged and simple in construction. Don't need to beg the USA for spares and support and get congress approval everytime you need an upgrade. I'd say it is a very good deal for the role they are being procured.

On a side note, what irony......Talibunnie hunted the Mi24s back in the day, and now Mi24s will hunt them. Hmmph.

as i reminded, there are no stingers this time around

 

[cabatli_53]

Russian weapons are cheaper compared to their Western counterparts, plus this chopper is pretty rugged and simple in construction. Don't need to beg the USA for spares and support and get congress approval everytime you need an upgrade. I'd say it is a very good deal for the role they are being procured.

Russia's aftersale services and spare part supply network are also below avarage. Turkey is struggling to keep gifted Mi-17's in service with own opportunities, After Russia caused a fiasco in terms of overhauling and maintenance of Turkish Mi-17's that was sent to Russia. I mean The people who tell worries about a likely western sanctions, should worry about Russian trade culture as well. No need to remind Iranian S-300 deal and their paid money for nothing. Anyway, I hope It suits well to your requirements and Mi-35's will be a nightmare of terrorists.

 

[Donatello]

Russia's aftersale services and spare part supply network are also below avarage. Turkey is struggling to keep gifted Mi-17's in service with own opportunities, After Russia caused a fiasco in terms of overhauling and maintenance of Turkish Mi-17's that was sent to Russia. I mean The people who tell worries about a likely western sanctions, should worry about Russian trade culture as well. No need to remind Iranian S-300 deal and their paid money for nothing. Anyway, I hope It suits well to your requirements and Mi-35's will be a nightmare of terrorists.

Turkey is member of NATO, that might have got something to do with it. Pakistan has had the same experience with USA, we had to keep asking USA for spares and support for our Cobras. I mean, those choppers are beyond their useful life, and as we see a number of them have crashed. This is serious situation. If USA cannot help, and Russians are stepping up, why not take the opportunity? Plus, Pakistan's largest chopper fleet is Mi8/17, and they routinely go for overhauls to Russia. Let's not blame Russians as it's just a prelude. The biggest winner here is not the fact that Pakistan is getting offensive Russian weapons, but the fact that our diplomacy is working well. This has big implications for the region. In this time of need Pakistan needs new Partnerships and alliances.


@MastanKhan

Sir jee would you like to add anything?

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey is member of NATO, that might have got something to do with it. Pakistan has had the same experience with USA, we had to keep asking USA for spares and support for our Cobras. I mean, those choppers are beyond their useful life, and as we see a number of them have crashed. This is serious situation. If USA cannot help, and Russians are stepping up, why not take the opportunity? Plus, Pakistan's largest chopper fleet is Mi8/17, and they routinely go for overhauls to Russia. Let's not blame Russians as it's just a prelude. The biggest winner here is not the fact that Pakistan is getting offensive Russian weapons, but the fact that our diplomacy is working well. This has big implications for the region. In this time of need Pakistan needs new Partnerships and alliances.


@MastanKhan

Sir jee would you like to add anything?

Asking spareparts to owner is not working style of sole USA. It is common among international agreements If you wants to order additional spare parts that is not mentioned into agreement but At the beggining of deal, all wishes should be included into agreement sheet and Supply mechanizm works When promised times arrived. The only difficulty that Pakistan and Turkey like countries may suffer is congress approval, While working with USA but It is true that USA is shaping procurement strategy based on politic benefits more than economical one. It caused many damages to Turkey's strategies as well. That's why Turkish defence industry is working hard to be self sufficiency.

If you mention resistance of supplier to politic pressures, Russia is not first class one again (Check Iran-Russia relations) but The situation most probably changed cause of rising tension between Russia-USA cause of Ukraine issue. At present, Russia needs more partners so They don't have luxury enough to play dirty games based on politic benefits.

In additions, Having multiple supplier always have advantages. It is Russians, USA or China is not important. Rivalary situation always bring lots of benefits to countries. Turkey is also feeding such bloody rival situations on tenders but Such procurements should be done in accordance with performance criterias instead of diplomatic gains (If you have alternative enough). Otherwise, Noone accepts any country as an ally because of a signed deal including to supply a few attack helicopter.

 

[airmarshal]

as i reminded, there are no stingers this time around

Mi-35s do have protection against missiles. Also, it has smaller rotor and new tail rotor to give it better speed and maneuverability.

The reason to me at least is that this is a tested platform, will be easily available and shares lots of components with Mi-17 which is already flying very well with Pakistan Army, hence easier maintenance.

 

[HAIDER]

I don't know whether or not Mi-35 is a suitable platform for Pakistani requirements but I saw two of Mi-35 flying side by side on low altitude. It is for sure that They are like a less maneuvrability huge elephant with a big rotors on top which makes it an open target for any type of enemy. Militants armed with proper munitions, can easily down this huge armed (+carrying tens of soldiers) copters. A Pakistani Mi-35 which was shot down by militants (I hope Allah protect all brave Pakistani and Turkish pilots from such an insident), will cost much more than a classic tandem seated medium armed attack helicopters in terms of financial and emotional damages to your nation. This copter is designed to meet requirements of soviet times but Current requirements of wars on rotor crafts aims to stay mostly away of hot/unknown areas but carry out long range/silent surveillance/reconnaissance capability to mostly engage detected targets without being detected. That's why many nations are developing cost effective 2,75 inch missiles and milimetric wave radars which has capability of detecting moving targets from 40km ranges. Without situation awareness/protection, Rotor crafts can't survive against an intelligent enemy. It is no important How armour protected mentioned rotorcraft is. Look at Russian forces in Afghanistan war. They lost around 75 of Mil-35 like copters in there, Despite huge firepower advantages of them against their modest armed enemy...

Its not issue that Pakistan avoiding Turkish deal. Its engine sanction. Plus, our PM and armed forces shown full interest in this piece of defence., but if any other reason of delay is still unknown to media. If you check my previous post, Pak army been complaining for the last few years about deteriorating condition of Pak cobra and as you know , now a days insurgency can not be counter without proper aviation. Turks are facing kurd resistance and Pak is facing Taliban. Even though kurd is low intensity, but Pak has issue on home ground. These attack helo are life line of Pak army. Without good combat helicopter these type of insurgency can not be curtailed. Where action need to be taken in minutes , rather calling air support takes average an hours.
As far as price , i think the price of helo will go down as the production increase, if pricing is the issue. But,obviously Pakistan love to go for Turkish equipment because it very less chances, these equipment can face any type of sanction in the time of need.
Chinese combat helo are also facing engine issue and still unable to produce for outside buyers.
There is lot of room to discuss the role combat helicopter in modern day insurgencies.....
So, the last choice is Russian helo and PA is in dire need of these helos.

Mi-35s do have protection against missiles. Also, it has smaller rotor and new tail rotor to give it better speed and maneuverability.

The reason to me at least is that this is a tested platform, will be easily available and shares lots of components with Mi-17 which is already flying very well with Pakistan Army, hence easier maintenance.

MI35 gave very good result in Iraq. They are equip for night operation. For some reason Iraqi pilots still in love of Mi24...

This the condition of Pak Cobra fleet,,they dropping from sky..

What is Afghan recent experience of newly acquired MI35

A mission

That same day, the Afghans and their American, Hungarian, and Czech advisors stood on alert out at the 'apron' which is home to the wing of Mi-35s, as well as at another apron housing several Mi-17s. The alert status was practice for the Kabul Conference due to kick off the next day. Depending on circumstances, the pilots could be called to conduct a combat mission or a training mission. The Afghans have had varied performances in both.

Twice in the past several months, Mi-35 pilots have conducted successful combat missions, routing insurgent or criminal elements from the battlefield. On May 12, several Hinds engaged and chased off a group of bandits running a roadblock just outside of Kabul. And on April 20, the attack wing was called to Kunduz to provide close air support for the 209th Corps. of the Afghan National Army during an engagement with a large Taliban force. After the ground forces had marked the enemy lines with heavy machine gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades, the Mi-35s swept the enemy lines in formation, shooting about 200 rockets and over 900 rounds from the 12.7 mm Gatling guns. Afghans and their American advisers estimated that 25 Taliban foot soldiers and one regional


Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/soviet_workhorses_tr.php##ixzz34OH2MbLl

 

[razgriz19]

NoooOOOOOO i need the name ... two steps from hell has alot of songs

strength of a thousand men

Russia's aftersale services and spare part supply network are also below avarage. Turkey is struggling to keep gifted Mi-17's in service with own opportunities, After Russia caused a fiasco in terms of overhauling and maintenance of Turkish Mi-17's that was sent to Russia. I mean The people who tell worries about a likely western sanctions, should worry about Russian trade culture as well. No need to remind Iranian S-300 deal and their paid money for nothing. Anyway, I hope It suits well to your requirements and Mi-35's will be a nightmare of terrorists.

Mi 35 doesn't suit our requirements. It is the need of the hour..
ATAK suits our requirements, but we can't afford that at the moment. And about American engine, its all just BS. PA would love to have AH-1Z viper if offered by the US.

 

[Rank]

 

[fatman17]

delay by US for Cobra spares was for other reasons.....political and PK inability to tackle Haqqanis. US has probably the most efficient supply chain even for weapons systems which are now discontinued....on the other hand Russia is notorious for delays in their Supply Chain....just ask India.

PK Mi-8/17's are routinely overhauled in eastern europe - czeck republic, romania etc. Mi-35 which are in use of former warsaw pact countries can offer good overhaul facilities.

 

[raazh]

delay by US for Cobra spares was for other reasons.....political and PK inability to tackle Haqqanis. US has probably the most efficient supply chain even for weapons systems which are now discontinued....on the other hand Russia is notorious for delays in their Supply Chain....just ask India.

PK Mi-8/17's are routinely overhauled in eastern europe - czeck republic, romania etc. Mi-35 which are in use of former warsaw pact countries can offer good overhaul facilities.

That is the problem with US origin equipment. You must follow their lead or the sactions will cut supply lines. You can name it Politics or what ever; but if you are not on the same page as US then you will have difficulty in getting the max from their equipment. With Russian Mi35/17; Pakistan has an option to source spares from multiple countries like we have for the Mi17 and apparently the Russkies realise the importance of Pakistan post US/nato exit from Afghanistan. So lets see how this relationship will progress. On a similar note since Pakistan is gearing up for a major offensive in N.W I think US will also be happy with this and they might also release CSF and other military aid to Pakistan. I wonder what Pak can get from them now.

@cabatli_53 T129 is a fantastic machine; however I reckon the project still has a lot of time left in it before you start exporting. Turkey itself only has 9-11 units in operational inventory and still has around 50 on order that are yet to be completed. I think another 3-5 years and this should have a great export potential.