Russia is seriously concerned over JF-17's take over on MiG-29

[Chak Bamu]

There is no such agency or something who certify fighter jet's RCS and inform all related parties(as you know well). It is all assumptions now. Since HAL/DRDO are chest thumping guys who always publish whatever their plus points(as well as shortcomings) you can believe them.

Given it is a tailless delta and a small plane, it is assumed that the RCS of LCA is quite lower and the design itself was just keeping in low RCS in mind.

You are right about nobody knowing exactly what RCS a particular fighter is. It is really pointless to say that JFT has lower RCS than LCA and vice-versa. We can point at particular features and discuss their contribution to RCS, but we can not come up with a definite answer.

For example, while LCA has a lot of composite content, it does have features that do contribute to RCS, such as legacy air intake, aluminum slats, etc... Having composites does not automatically lower RCS by itself.

Both JFT and LCA are small combat planes. In absence of data, it is pointless to discuss which one of the two has lower RCS.

You are claiming that JF 17 has got high composite content?And would have much smaller RCS than LCA?

Nope I am not claiming anything. You are as mindless of my words as you are of your own. Read my post again. For more clarification, go to JF-17 information pool thread. Do not waste my time.

 

[gslv mk3]

Nope I am not claiming anything. You are as mindless of my words as you are of your own. Read my post again. For more clarification, go to JF-17 information pool thread. Do not waste my time.

If you didnt know,It was your compatriot that made that weird claim.

Its RCS definitely smaller than any Indian aircraft gives it higher advantage.

 

[Chak Bamu]

If you didnt know,It was your compatriot that made that weird claim.

Let him. This is PDF. You can make similar claims on BR. Besides, he may have some basis for making such a claim. Ask him.

But when you make a counter-claim just because someone made a claim, you are doing so for similar reasons, ie: nationalism. One can not make claims of technical nature based on nationalism.

Important thing is to have some credible basis in making claims. Quality of one's posts determines reputation. This would not matter if being a troll is the goal to begin with. In that case carry on, but spare me.

 

[Bratva]

Only eighties MIG are inferior to JFT is just like Tejas would crush F-16 A/B version (not MLU) any day. Upgraded or new MIG-29 would crush JFT Block II anyday.
Official figure of radar range of KLJ-7 is 105 KM for 5m2 RCS aircraft.
Official figure of Radar range of ZHUK-ME is 120 KM for 5m2 RCS aircraft.

That's why they say, keep yourself updated with what's going on in world. KLJ-7 has been updated and has 130 KM for 5 m^2

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Can you read? Seriously buddy? Serbian Migs had malfunctioning radars, no one ever said they had no radars but a malfunctioning radar is as good as no radar

Yeah sure.. Iraqis had no radars.. while serbs going against vipers n eagles had crappy ones? whats next?

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/victories-iraq-gulf.war.pdf

F-111, Tornado ect are not 'teen series' but the proof is there along with the fact that US pilots admitted being locked on by Mig-29s and fired upon.

But a very low tactic on your behalf to subjugate and dismiss all Russian sources.

Lol all of the aircraft you mentioned are old and less capable than the teens.. which have confirmed kills against your migs..

Also the link isnt opening .. but yes i did hear abt a USAF F-111 on a ground attack mission being hit by a mig and returning back to its base..

Your assumptions are outdated and plainly wrong. Limited A2G capabilities were a problem for early Mig-29s, as for being fuel thirsty where did you get that?

The RD-33 is more fuel efficient then the F404 in dry thrust.

0.77 lb/h vs 0.81

Seriously? while being much less reliable,durable and other issues?

As for the Mig-29 being grounded several times, I don't get what you are trying to prove, nearly every aircraft has been grounded at some point including F-16s but why bother, I sense your post was inflammatory and immature.

Immature and inflammatory? dude the record of mig-29 speaks for itself.. malaysia,algeria etc etc?
While F-16s are selling like hot cakes? even older blocks?

Its poor kill ration and the bad history of getting shot down?

No one mentioned the F-15 and it never shot down 11 Mig-29s. 3 Mig-29s were shot down during desert storm and 2 during Kosovo and the F-15 had AWACS.

Oh phuleeeez buddy.. stop lying..

F-15s in Desert Storm alone shot 5 of your might mig-29s...:

MiG Kills

Overall i think it killed 9 Mig-29s..

Nice summary, except I know where you got it from and the same source also claimed that the Migs had malfunctioning radars. Those Mig-29s were also old as time; morever those were export versions which had many systems such as data-link removed and radars that were down-graded.

Sure sure... plus... its the experience of a german mig-29 pilot who clocked 500 hours on the mig-29..

you thought many things. If you want to make that claim you better back it up.

Haha.. sure.. truth must hurt... considering even the Dutchs shot down mig-29s... "MiG Killer", of 322nd sqn, .... on March 24th, 1999 with ...

Save us the bombardment of your copy and past job. That was also not written by a German as you stated, the Germans never had much of anything good to say about the F-16 since they regularly trashed them with one German stating that an F-16 took 18 archers from a Mig-29.

Yeah a martian wrote it..

Visit F-16.net for more info.

The article is comparing a Mig-29A export version circa 1983. the guy talks about issues such as anolog cockpit and flight controls which are radically different in a Mig-29A compared to a Mig-29SM or Mig-29K or any other Mig-29.

Why not compare a F-16 block 15 to a Mig-35 while you are at it?

Comprehension issues?

 

[Manindra]

That's why they say, keep yourself updated with what's going on in world. KLJ-7 has been updated and has 130 KM for 5 m^2

Can you give me official source for it .

 

[gslv mk3]

So Russia fears that you guys offering JF 17 at low price will severely hit their Market.BAd for Russia,good for China & Pakistan

 

[Bratva]

Can you give me official source for it .

JF-17 project director AVM javaid interview to Kanwa.

 

[Manindra]

JF-17 project director AVM javaid interview to Kanwa.

PAC does not manufacture KLJ-7

 

[Bratva]

PAC does not manufacture KLJ-7

Just shows how ignorant you are with JF-17 project. No need to convince you and yeah KLJ 7 is being manufacturd in PAC

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Avionics Systems Co-produced Projects

 

[Manindra]

Just shows how ignorant you are with JF-17 project. No need to convince you and yeah KLJ 7 is being manufacturd in PAC

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Avionics Systems Co-produced Projects

KLJ-7 is assembled in PAC not manufactured.

 

[Bratva]

KLJ-7 is assembled in PAC not manufactured.

Whatever.

 

[ptldM3]

Yeah sure.. Iraqis had no radars.. while serbs going against vipers n eagles had crappy ones? whats next?

Do you have severe reading comprehension issues? Quote me where I said Iraqi Mig-29s hand no radar. I stated that Serb Mig-29s had malfunctioning radars, and in fact many other systems were failing. The Serbian mig-29s Were Decrepit.


Source:

When the NATO attack finally came, on the evening hours of 24 March 1999, the MiGs went into action, being scrambled one after the other. The two fighters that took off from Nis and were vectored to intercept targets over southern Serbia and Kosovo, were swiftly dealth with by NATO fighters: the MiG-29 flown by Maj. Dragan Ilic was damaged - either by an AIM-120 fired from a Dutch F-16AM fighters, or by a Serbian SA-6 SAM, in a case of fratricide fire. The second MiG that scrambled from the same airfield was flown by Maj. Ilijo Arizanov, was shot down by an USAF F-15C. The pair from Batajnica experienced only a slightly better fate: first to launch was Maj. Nebojsa Nikolic, who was shot down shortly after take off. Maj. Ljubisa Kulacin evaded several missiles fired at him while fighting to bring his malfunctioning systems back in working order. Eventually realizing that he could not do anything, and with Batajnica AB under a severe attack, he diverted to Belgrade IAP, and landed safely. Kulacin's experience was not much different to that of his three other colleagues, all of which experienced immense problems with weapons and navigational systems on their aircraft: on the 18112, flown by Maj. Arizanov, both the radio and SPO-15 malfunctioned; on 18104, flown by Maj. Ilic, the radar failed; on 18111, flown by Maj. Nikolic, both the radar and the SN-29 missile guidance systems were inoperative, and apparently the SPO-15 also did not function properly.

The fifth and last MiG-29 to get airborne on that night was 18106, flown by Maj. Predrag Milutinovic. Immediately after take-off his radar failed and even the electrical generator malfunctioned. Shortly after, he was warned by SPO-15 of being acquired, but he evaded the opponent by several evasive manoeuvres. Attempting to evade further encounters and searching for an airfield where a landing was possible, he finally ended over Ribarska Banja, when his RWR warned him of acquisition by a ground-based radar. Seconds afterward the aircraft was hit and Milutinovic forced to eject.



MiG-29s delivered to Yugoslavia, namely, were some of the first ever built. Originally, they were all manufactured in 1983 and 1984....


the condition of the MiGs with the 127.LAE was very poor, and its pilots were flying barely 20 hours annually.

Lol all of the aircraft you mentioned are old and less capable than the teens.. which have confirmed kills against your migs..

Old? Relative to what? Mig-29s manufactured in 1983 are old yet you have not problem pounding your chest when much more modern teen series aircraft shoot down those old Migs. Your attempt to debate with me is desperate.

Also the link isnt opening .. but yes i did hear abt a USAF F-111 on a ground attack mission being hit by a mig and returning back to its base..

The link works just fine.

Immature and inflammatory? dude the record of mig-29 speaks for itself.. malaysia,algeria etc etc?
While F-16s are selling like hot cakes? even older blocks?



Its poor kill ration and the bad history of getting shot down?

This is simply brushing aside facts and coming to ridiculous conclusions. Your point is that Mig-29s are poor aircraft, my point is that the Mig-29 has never had a fair chance or been on equal footing with other aircraft due to the fact that many Mig-29s that have been shot down were originally manufactured in 1983-1984. The pilots operating those Mig-29 had 20 hours of annual flight time, the Migs-29s had malfunctioning avionics due to long overdue overhauls. Moreover, Mig-29s have been numerically outnumbered by NATO pilots with superior training, which were flying much more modern aircraft, which also had the the luxury of AWACs as well as electronic warfare aircraft.


I'm also still waiting for you to answer the following claims:


How is the RD-33 fuel thirsty when it has less fuel consumption in dry thrust then the F404?

Where did you get your information that 30+ Mig-29s have been shot down?

How is a Mig-29 a failure just because it has been grounded several time? This would mean that the F-16 is a failure as it too has been grounded many times.

Oh phuleeeez buddy.. stop lying..

F-15s in Desert Storm alone shot 5 of your might mig-29s...:

This is rich the guy that made claims that 30+ Mig-29s have been shot down is calling me a liar


If you did a little research before posting you would spare yourself the embarrassment. A Mig-29 crashing due to pilot error is not what anyone would consider 'being shot down. But we all know western claims sugar coat everything in their favor, such as claiming pilot error as a kill, or claiming friendly fire incidents as their kills or even worse denying that that their aircraft ever got shot down in A2A combat and instead blame it on SAMs.

MiG Kills

Overall i think it killed 9 Mig-29s..

Like I said you think many thing which are not true.

Sure sure... plus... its the experience of a german mig-29 pilot who clocked 500 hours on the mig-29..

This is too funny, when old German Mig-29 aircraft which were flown by pilots that clocked only 500 hours wiped the floor with F-16s it suddenly becomes unfair? But what about the Iraqi or Serb pilots? They only got about 20 flight hours annually which caused you to pound your chest and proclaim that the Mig-29 is junk.

It's also funny, I would be willing to bet that the F-16s pilots that faced the German Mig-29s had at least as much experience in their F-16 as the Mig-29 pilots had since 500 flight hours is considered novice or even inexperienced.

Haha.. sure.. truth must hurt... considering even the Dutchs shot down mig-29s... "MiG Killer", of 322nd sqn, .... on March 24th, 1999 with ...

Let's give the Dutch a round of applause, they shot down a Mig-29 from 1983 which had malfunctioning systems and a pilot that clocked 20 flight hours annually. Totally an even playing field.....

That is about as legitimate a tying up an old man and beating him with clubs while your friend hold him down and then calling yourself 'old man killer'.

Visit F-16.net for more info.

I don't need to, I have read it before and it was not a German pilots perspective as you claim, nor does it prove anything since the author is complaining that the Mig-29 is too uncomfortable or difficult to fly which by the way the Israeli evaluation debunked which leads me to believe that the guy on that forum is blowing hot air. Nevertheless, the article has no substance, since it's bickering about old Mig-29s, this in no way changes the fact that one F-16 took 18 archers, the guy that wrote the article is probably a disgruntled fanboy or the same F-16 pilot that took 18 archers and ended up throwing a hissy fit by storming out of the debrief when he seen the German pilots

Comprehension issues?

Bias issues? You have no problem posting articles which criticize the Mig-29 based on evaluation of the original Mig-29, this would be like me posting an article criticizing the F-16 block15 and then me lumping together all of the different F-16 blocks based on what some article said about the F-16 block15 .

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Do you have severe reading comprehension issues? Quote me where I said Iraqi Mig-29s hand no radar. I stated that Serb Mig-29s had malfunctioning radars, and in fact many other systems were failing. The Serbian mig-29s Decrepit.


Source:

Again crappy avionics and monkey models?

God damn those foreign operated mig...

I wonder

Old? Relative to what? Mig-29s manufactured in 1983 are old yet you have not problem pounding your chest when much more modern teen series aircraft shoot down those old Migs. Your attempt to debate with me is desperate.

RAF claims the tornado was hit by SA-7.. and returned to base!

And sorry f-16,F-15,F-18 were ws modern than mig-29s even in 80s-90s..

The link works just fine.

Some software issues.. but again where are the F-Teens mig shot down ?

This is simply brushing aside facts and coming to ridiculous conclusions. Your point is that Mig-29s are poor aircraft, my point is that the Mig-29 has never had a fair chance or been on equal footing with other aircraft due to the fact that many Mig-29s that have been shot down were originally manufactured in 1983-1984. The pilots operating those Mig-29 had 20 hours of annual flight time, the Migs-29s had malfunctioning avionics due to long overdue overhauls. Moreover, Mig-29s have been numerically outnumbered by NATO pilots with superior training, which were flying much more modern aircraft, which also had the the luxury of AWACs as well as electronic warfare aircraft.

And were shot in the 80-90s! by aircraft from the same era.. apart from the shitty combat history... nobody likes it... !!

As for being outnumbered n other nonsense.. lmao.

And the sources I posted are also from the same era....! Read them for a change..

I'm also still waiting for you to answer the following claims:


How is the RD-33 fuel thirsty when it has less fuel consumption in dry thrust then the F404?

Again im talkin about its overall performance... not to forget the limitations of the Mig-29 design...!

Again read my post!

Where did you get your information that 30+ Mig-29s have been shot down?

Dude I could be wrong abt the exact number... but here is the telly of F-15 kills alone against ur mig-29s:


MiG-29 "Fulcrum"


Air victories: 11 + 1 UAV


1987 MiG-29 (Russia) - 4 x Su-22 (Afghanistan / Mujahedin)
19.01.1991 MiG-29 (Irak) - 1 x Tornado GR Mk1 (RAF)





24.02.1996 MiG-29UB (Cuba) - 2 x Cessna 337 (USA / civilian)
25.02.1999 MiG-29 (Eritrea) - 1 x MiG-23BN (Ethiopia)
26.02.1999 MiG-29 (Eritrea) - 2 x MiG-21 (Ethiopia)
15.05.2000 MiG-29 (Eritrea) - 1 x Su-25 (Ethiopia)
18.05.2000 MiG-29 (Eritrea) - 1 x MiG-21 (Ethiopia)
28.04.2008 MiG-29 (Russia) - 1 x UAV (Georgia)

Tornado damage nt included... RAF SA-7 affair..

Losses in air to air combat: 20


2.06.1989 F-15C (Israel) - 2 x MiG-29 (Syria)17.01.1991 F-15C (USAF) - 3 x MiG-29 (Irak)
19.01.1991 F-15C (USAF) - 2 x MiG-29 (Irak)
25.02.1999 Su-27 (Ethiopia) - 2 x MiG-29 (Eritrea)
18.03.1999 Su-27 (Ethiopia) - 2 x MiG-29 (Eritrea)
24.03.1999 F-16AM (Holland) - 1 x MiG-29 (Serbia)
24.04.1999 F-15C (USAF) - 2 x MiG-29 (Serbia)
26.04.1999 F-15C (USAF) - 2 x MiG-29 (Serbia)
4.05.1999 F-16CJ (USAF) - 1 x MiG-29 (Serbia)
18.05.2000 Su-27 (Ethiopia) - 1 x MiG-29 (Eritrea)
14.09.2001 F-15C (Israel) - 2 x MiG-29 (Syria)

How is a Mig-29 a failure just because it has been grounded several time? This would mean that the F-16 is a failure as it too has been grounded many times.

lol. whatever makes you happy..

Hot cake = shit?

This is rich the guy that made claims that 30+ Mig-29s have been shot down is calling me a liar


If you did a little research before posting you would spare yourself the embarrassment. A Mig-29 crashing due to pilot error is not what anyone would consider 'being shot down. But we all know western claims sugar coat everything in their favor, such as claiming pilot error as a kill, or claiming friendly fire incidents as their kills or even worse denying that that their aircraft ever got shot down in A2A combat and instead blame it on SAMs.

Cool story..why Russian systems God why!!

This is too funny, when old German Mig-29 aircraft which were flown by pilots that clocked only 500 hours wiped the floor with F-16s it suddenly becomes unfair? But what about the Iraqi or Serb pilots? They only got about 20 flight hours annually which caused you to pound your chest and proclaim that the Mig-29 is junk.

It's also funny, I would be willing to bet that the F-16s pilots that faced the German Mig-29s had at least as much experience in their F-16 as the Mig-29 pilots had since 500 flight hours is considered novice or even inexperienced.

LOL... READ THE POSTS AGAIN YOUR HIGHNESS.. COMPRENDE!!

Let's give the Dutch a round of applause, they shot down a Mig-29 from 1983 which had malfunctioning systems and a pilot that clocked 20 flight hours annually. Totally an even playing field.....

That is about as legitimate a tying up an old man and beating him with clubs while your friend hold him down and then calling yourself 'old man killer'.

God damn those dutchhhhssssssssssss!

I don't need to, I have read it before and it was not a German pilots perspective as you claim, nor does it prove anything since the author is complaining that the Mig-29 is too uncomfortable or difficult to fly which by the way the Israeli evaluation debunked which leads me to believe that the guy on that forum is blowing hot air. Nevertheless, the article has no substance, since it's bickering about old Mig-29s, this in no way changes the fact that one F-16 took 18 archers, the guy that wrote the article is probably a disgruntled fanboy or the same F-16 pilot that took 18 archers and ended up throwing a hissy fit by storming out of the debrief when he seen the German pilots

no kid... hes talkin alot abt its pathetic limitations,performance n crappy cockpit n handling among other things... its better to read instead of chest thumping... against the older block F-16... on which he flew 2000 hours!



And F-16 taking 18 archers ? lol .. damn the jet must be made of kryponite or something.. and no proof except some russian sponsored article? Too much credibility i must say!

Apart from tht the mig-29 vs F-16 ex in the 90s in Italy? lol .. damn even the italian... or should i say the whole world dislikes mig-29...

Bias issues? You have no problem posting articles which criticize the Mig-29 based on evaluation of the original Mig-29, this would be like me posting an article criticizing the F-16 block15 and then me lumping together all of the different F-16 blocks based on what some article said about the F-16

block15

Damn the whole world lies !!!

They lie abt its crappy performance... its limitations etc...

Yet even block 15s are selling like hot cakes ? while countries operating migs want to replace tht junk...

God damn world... so unfair to russian platforms.. damn... i feel ya brother...



.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

KLJ-7 is assembled in PAC not manufactured.

Yup PAC and JF-17 prog director are all liars... mahindra the indian troll knows more abt JF-17 thn anybody else...