Russia and India to Create Gen. 5 Fighter

[Keysersoze]

So this project virtually rules out Mig-35 as the MRCA.
First we have managed to close the Russian mouth by stuffing cash.
Add to that there is no way in the world that IAF is not gonna have SU-30,Mig-35 & PAK-FA, all Russian aircrafts in it's inventory!

Amazing ..Money we spend to keep our "allies" happy!

I wonder how the Left will react if India was to choose American planes? They managed to stop the nuclear deal,it is anyone's guess to what level they can go stop "American Imperialism" in the form on F-18's!

Now that leaves Gripen,Rafale,EuroF. Gripen dependent on Uncle Sam.
Eurof delivery,infrastructure & cost issues

That leaves Rafale.... my my!

And I was thinking the French shoot their foot by closing Mirage lines! With Scnema being favourite for Kaveri joint development, the French might at last get their first order!

Err some interesting conclusions you have reached with your post there Con......I disagree with them as the deal hasn't been signed so that gives the Russians a fair amount of leverage in regards to the MRCA deal.

I am still curious as how the same number of aircraft can be procured for $10 billion. Australia is getting 24 jets (F-18's) for $3.1 billion. So it would be roughly 72 aircraft for the amount that the tender is offering. I believe the Rafale would cost more. The Eurofighter has it's various delays and Gripen suffers from potential sanctions.
Oh and the original aircraft the mirage 2000 has had its production line shut down so if they opt for that then it would again cost to have the production line re-opened.

I think that the Mig-35 is still the front runner.

 

[con]

Err some interesting conclusions you have reached with your post there Con......I disagree with them as the deal hasn't been signed so that gives the Russians a fair amount of leverage in regards to the MRCA deal.

I am still curious as how the same number of aircraft can be procured for $10 billion. Australia is getting 24 jets (F-18's) for $3.1 billion. So it would be roughly 72 aircraft for the amount that the tender is offering. I believe the Rafale would cost more. The Eurofighter has it's various delays and Gripen suffers from potential sanctions.
Oh and the original aircraft the mirage 2000 has had its production line shut down so if they opt for that then it would again cost to have the production line re-opened.

I think that the Mig-35 is still the front runner.

Keys,
The biggest problem with Mig-35 coming in is that IAF will be the second Russian Airforce of the world! SU-30,Mig-35 & PAK-FA. Do you think that will be the case? IAF will be very stupid to put all the eggs in a single basket?
The choice to join is also driven by the point that this cash can keep the Russian quiet. How much they want ? 5 billion for PAK-FA & 10 billion for MRCA? Dont you think Russians are asking too much? As far I understand Russian are businessmen. They dont care if India buys planes or subs until they get their share of Indian defence money.

Well I have no idea what all is included in the 6 billion deal for F-18.If India does not get 126 with 10 billion.. then India doesn't buy it ..simple as that.

Now the adavantages for Rafale is 2.
1. French are desperate for a export order. They just got salt rubbed on their wound by the loss of Morocco deal. They will do anything for a deal. Right now I feel the French are the best deal in terms of extracting tech for cash allocated.

2. Scenma is been favoured by DRDO & IAF as a partner for Kaveri engine. This gives them a really good chance. Do you think the Americans will ever ToT engine & radar tech? IAF must be nut to believe the US will.

French will not open Mirage lines. They are desperate to break even Rafale development cost. Now Mirage does not stand a chance with Americans showing dreams about F-16 Block 70,JSF etc etc..

Irrespective of what IAF chooses, the Indian MRCA contract debate is present virtually every forum on the internet

 

[Keysersoze]

I understand what you are saying, however the Russian deal offers the best option for India as they will
1)Get the quantity of planes it needs. 126 rather than smaller number that any other deal would create. If they don't mind taking a reduction in squadron numbers then I guess this will not be a factor.
2)Better transfer of technology. The western options would be much harder to get concessions on for. Or in the case of the French would be available but would ratchet the price up considerably.
3)The best chance to get a 5th Gen aircraft quickly will come from the Russians rather than the Americans or Europeans. I do not think that one is driven by the other.
4)I understand what you are saying re the eggs in one basket, However the situation would be different simply because I am assuming TOT means that the aircraft would be less prone to sanctions or similar situations.

 

[con]

I understand what you are saying, however the Russian deal offers the best option for India as they will
1)Get the quantity of planes it needs. 126 rather than smaller number that any other deal would create. If they don't mind taking a reduction in squadron numbers then I guess this will not be a factor.
2)Better transfer of technology. The western options would be much harder to get concessions on for. Or in the case of the French would be available but would ratchet the price up considerably.
3)The best chance to get a 5th Gen aircraft quickly will come from the Russians rather than the Americans or Europeans. I do not think that one is driven by the other.
4)I understand what you are saying re the eggs in one basket, However the situation would be different simply because I am assuming TOT means that the aircraft would be less prone to sanctions or similar situations.

Keys,
Mig-35 does not provide any substantial capability over existing platform
Remember IAF wants MRCA to be high tech bomb trucks. Migs-29/35 is not known for it. Mig-29 has a horrendous record within IAF.

The aspect of numbers is always driven by size of the order. Do you think the French/Europeans would want to throw away a billion dollar order saying they can provide only 100 instead of 126? I dont think so.
I just remember that the Saudis are paying 8 billion for 72 Eurofighters.

At this moment I see the fight is between F-18 & Rafale,provided political consideration is there. If the Left have no issues with American planes,then it will be F-18s.

If the Left parties pork their nose.. the fight is gonna get exicting.

Why I say Rafale is the best, is simply because the French are in a position where they will do anything for a first order. They are already cutting down on their internal order to reduce the overall cost of the program.
They have no other order,there is not wrong with the plane & if they can come up with a AESA on time.. who knows they might pay back the Americans for the Morocco deal!

 

[Keysersoze]

Yes the Saudi's paid $8 billion for the Eurofighter.....but they are not asking for the same level of TOT that say the Indian govt is stipulating in it's Tender.

Personally I don't think much of the Mig 35 either, However I haven't put the number of stipulations on what planes I order (0-orders and counting ) I am merely saying that the bigger picture says that the Indians will still go for the Mig to keep everything else running smoothly. REAL politik plays it part in sales as well as raw business.

 

[EagleEyes]

5th generation is a stealth fighter, not something Russia or China can make! Lowering the RCs through AESA radar doesn't give you F-22 Raptor or JSF. Russian defination of 5th generation simply means that exactly.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

What could be the reason why Russia and China cannot make the Stealth type of aircraft?

 

[EagleEyes]

Its not that they can't. We have yet to see their capability in building one. There is no proof that Russia or China posses the original "stealth" capability and materials used in F/A-22 and Joint Strike Fighter. These fighters are collaboration of the top defence aircraft industries, and the industries of Russia and China, come no close to it.

Plus, it requires extensive changes in the air frames which i doubt that Russia or China can do.

 

[ied_blast]

India wasn't offered the JSF. They were offered elements of the JSF in one of the MRCA aircraft......

Secondly I wouldn't worry about the PAF they have things well in hand.....

it was on offer

" New Delhi, July 22: In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35.
though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Ligthening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. "

 

[ied_blast]

Its not that they can't. We have yet to see their capability in building one. There is no proof that Russia or China posses the original "stealth" capability and materials used in F/A-22 and Joint Strike Fighter. These fighters are collaboration of the top defence aircraft industries, and the industries of Russia and China, come no close to it.

Plus, it requires extensive changes in the air frames which i doubt that Russia or China can do.

not really

"Russia Working on Stealth Plasma

Russia is working to develop
- plasma-cloud-generation technology
for stealth applications
and achieved highly promising results,
- reportedly reducing the radar cross-section (RCS)
of an aircraft by a factor of 100. (!!!)

Russian research into plasma generation is spearheaded by a team of scientists led by Anatoliy Korotoyev, director of Keldysh Research Center.

The institute has developed
- a plasma generator weighing only 100 kg,
which could easily fit onboard a tactical aircraft. "

MIG-39/1.42 MFI (plasma stealth) | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces

 

[ied_blast]

Its not that they can't. We have yet to see their capability in building one. There is no proof that Russia or China posses the original "stealth" capability and materials used in F/A-22 and Joint Strike Fighter. These fighters are collaboration of the top defence aircraft industries, and the industries of Russia and China, come no close to it.

Plus, it requires extensive changes in the air frames which i doubt that Russia or China can do.

ASTA-LA-VISTA ruSSian babe

Russian plasma stealth fighters

 

[su-47]

it was on offer

" New Delhi, July 22: In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35.
though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Ligthening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. "

There are 3 problems with this offer:

1) It was implied that Lockheed Martin will give india the option to accept F-35 at a later date if India accepts F-16

2) By the time F-35 comes, it'll be atleast 2020, by which time the cost for this thing would be very high.

3) The Russian 5th gen fighter is supposed to rival F-22. so by choosing F-35, we might be choosing a less capable fighter

However, IN can get this fighter for carrier born operations if Naval LCA fails.

 

[HK-47]

wasn't this Su-47 aircraft a prototype for this Russian 5th Gen fighter?

 

[Keysersoze]

it was on offer

" New Delhi, July 22: In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35.
though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Ligthening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft. "

I have highlighted the salient part of the article. It is a carrot for the Lockheed products that are on offer now...

heres another quote from another website

Says Lockheed Martin's Royce Caplinger, "Beyond the RFP that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future."

US wants India's fighter jet order, dangles F-35 carrot

 

[Keysersoze]

ASTA-LA-VISTA ruSSian babe

Russian plasma stealth fighters

Doesn't cover how they have overcome the problems with plasma stealth. and since the theory has been around since the 60's no one else has implemented it.