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Round One JF17 - Poor Display By Tejas Took 10 more sec Than JF17 To Go Up

So, are u accepting that LCA need 12 sec & JF-17 need 20 sec. And need lower runway? And thats why LCA variant was developed?

Are you impressed with LCA capabilities? :rofl:

BTW, for the sake of your knowledge, as I know u dont know anything about word operational capability.

NO, NO aircraft in world do vertical take off with loaded payload.



How, did u refused to add that 8 sec because of your illogical mind?



If you doing operational capabilities analysis with these videos, then in military world you would be known as fool.

IAF or PAF not do such analysis in this configuration, loaded with 15 min fuel only for aerobatics. But in this configuration. Further ADA pilots dont do operational capabilities, they just do weapons trials. And there is a huge difference in wep trials & op capabilities.
IsOHT.jpg


And tell you what, if you actually want to know about capabilities of LCA then you need to contact TACDE, not Bahrain Air Show..

Further no aircraft on the planet earth able to perform beyond 5.5-6 g in this configuration.

Nice to see you again.

I dont need to, because whole thread is based on a bull crap.

Well said, its typical fan boy + hate boy thread....as most LCA and JF-17 threads turn into, especially in "comparing". :D
 
@MastanKhan

Please hear the commentary at the beginning itself..

It says its not going to climb straight away but clear the runway and take off..

I hope you do understand english..... those words are on you face...

Now go back and edit the title and get a short break .

Your pathetic attempt has just failed the purpose.

Thanks for the laughter.

Hats off to you man.. You are still trying to answer biased rants with logic.. Give up already... dude.. :)
 
also there is no such indian made radar since how come development of an aesa radar be so simple that it can be done in 6-7 months without even doing r&d
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories3767_HAL_developing_LCA-1P_with_AESA_Radar.html
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...pproval-for-tejas-fighter-115102500749_1.html

for thrust u can look up here :p:for
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404
Performance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414
Performance
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/twr.html
  • Max. takeoff weight: 13,200 kg(29,100 lb)
  • Internal fuel capacity: 2,458 kg
  • External fuel capacity: 2 x 1,200-litre drop tank at inboard, 1 x 725-litre drop tank under fuselage
    hal_lca_tejas_light_combat_aircraft-40456.jpg
    :azn:


Hi,

Please don't quote me---quote the link as well-----so that we do not have troll wars over these comments which are not mine.

"Matti paleet ho gai"
Tejas ki,
2nd day main......3rd class takeoff.


Hi,

Can we see the video
 
both planes needs improvement and both are good in final product
what Jf17 needs is the new blk 3 i am waiting
i would love to see marketing the jf17 and lca in international market and see who is buying
 
@MastanKhan

Lets assume that LCA is less worthy than JF-17. Lets also assume that eventually LCA-MK2 < JF-17 Blk3. But it is worthwhile to pursue LCA since we want to develop self-sufficiency or rather the capability to design a good fighter aircraft.

Inspite of all the bumblings we had still we need to pursue this line while ensuring that similar inordinate delays do not crop up.

Rafales, super Sukhoi will also be inducted to keep our airforce strong.

For the long term our current approach along with corrections is going to pay rich dividends.
 
Though you still find out some idiotic of my post at few points like being not so idiotic. Rest about many Pakistani Posters, I am a Pakistani as well and am among them not separate and everyone has his own style and words to come up but what really matters is how are you feeling when you are reading and replying to someone.

Rest of your post is all about the happenings so i wouldn't drag them anymore as it has been discussed so many times on several threads so let be short here.

What i mean by moving away of Boeing was only highlighted that someone should understand that HAL is not that capable that other industries are in subjected field.

JFTs were not inducted as tandem seat lift or as trainers and IOC has been already obtained if I am not wrong here which can be found at particular thread. Indeed Bahrain airshow was an airshow of display and there lies the answer that hence JFT did not participate rather many Indians tried to prove that PAC or PAF were short of fund or were like afraid of LCA etc.

I was concerned about the climb rate initially from take-off subject to OP as well so while looking at gaining climb as per rate of time then it is clearly visible that LCA almost took 30 seconds to go vertical and JFT as being little late against LCA while taking off, gained climb rate quickly even having the drag by landing gears.

So it was only just my short knowledge analysis as well as the concerns about delays at the end of LCA by HAL etc.

So in conclusion LCA could have been proven much more if it was not the HAL after all those delays and such budget. Pakistan faced the same sanctions as well or I can say more than India.

I would love to answer any member irrespective of the nationality till he is discussing in the logical way

HAL though the govt. PSU it is still the single most biggest manufacturer/integrator with the most experience of fighter aircraft , helicopter, trainer, license building, R&D, and integrator. Though it have the most experience from 2nd gen fighter plane like Marut, Surya Kiran, Jaguar, Mig 21, Su -30 MKI, Mig 27, Hawk IJT, Helli like LCH, Dhruva, Rudra etc etc. Compare to HAL there is no other aeronautic company whether pvt or public. Compare with TATA Aerospace, its total experience in building aircraft is just only the parts of Doniers, And NAL another PSU it has the experience os failed and rejected aircraft known as Saras, so HAL is the only biggest Aerospace with the best experience in the country.

And the delay by the ADA which you feels have many reasons like lack of funds, sanctions but also due to the HOLISTIC Approach, which make sure that no mishaps or accident occur because a single mishaps would send the whole project to the Gallow, in the country with the strong Import Lobby.

What I want to tell you that it is very difficult to developed a sucessful fighter aircraft not because of the technology or the capabilites of industrial or know how, which could be sourced if your pocket permits in this global world because

1. The technology is developing at the fast rate,--- till you develop a product, the time taken will allow new challenges and new tech. and your product becomes obsolute.

2. Already established OEM with more experience, and tech. will offer you at lesser prise and better product, to distroy the emerging future competitor at the young age.

3. No OEM is going to share the cutting edge tech. with others like turbofan tech, Radar Algorithm.

4. For the development and research continous funding is required, that means support from all govt. because the govt leaders keeps on changing after elections.

So LCA which many poster make fun as Last Chance Aircraft is indeed a Last Chance Aircraft because I don't think this is the best chance to break the import lobby monopoly, because the technology of fighter plane is now developing and changing in such high pace, and much more in future, that it will become imposible to catch over in the future if there won't have any LCA. Only possibility I can see is if

1. If there is a serious Sanctions on you
2. Abundunt funds available to pump in the R&D

Just read it completely, than tell me why ADA should not be given credit for the Sucess of LCA project.
 
Hi,

Please don't quote me---quote the link as well-----so that we do not have troll wars over these comments which are not mine.




Hi,

Can we see the video

Check the page "21" it is mentioned on the top of video,Tejas 2nd day performance.
 
The gesture i intend towards LCA was like it should have proven much better after a decade of work rather being just a routine plane that disappointed everyone and the reason is HAL though delays are another story. Capabilities proven by JFT are beyond our expectations or more than what we expect rather claimed to be the super 4++ fighter.
I am sorry but you are making it like since we didn't expect a lot from JFT but it turned out to be a plane having abc capabilities, thus great as compared to Indians who always boasted about how super their plane is and it turned out to be a plane having def capabilities and thus not good...with due respect this is kiddish........Chinese aerospace industry is quiet ahead of us and Tejas is what has given us an aerospace industry!!....we might be late but Tejas is showing all the promises of being a 4-4.5 generation plane...this is humongous success in itself....no??

Anyways the fact of the matter is both the planes should be compared on what they possess and how their future developments are looking....because this is where the real deal is...
 
@MastanKhan

Lets assume that LCA is less worthy than JF-17. Lets also assume that eventually LCA-MK2 < JF-17 Blk3. But it is worthwhile to pursue LCA since we want to develop self-sufficiency or rather the capability to design a good fighter aircraft.

Inspite of all the bumblings we had still we need to pursue this line while ensuring that similar inordinate delays do not crop up.

Rafales, super Sukhoi will also be inducted to keep our airforce strong.

For the long term our current approach along with corrections is going to pay rich dividends.
That is the right attitude!
 
I am sorry but you are making it like since we didn't expect a lot from JFT but it turned out to be a plane having abc capabilities, thus great as compared to Indians who always boasted about how super their plane is and it turned out to be a plane having def capabilities and thus not good...with due respect this is kiddish........Chinese aerospace industry is quiet ahead of us and Tejas is what has given us an aerospace industry!!....we might be late but Tejas is showing all the promises of being a 4-4.5 generation plane...this is humongous success in itself....no??

Anyways the fact of the matter is both the planes should be compared on what they possess and how their future developments are looking....because this is where the real deal is...

It wasn't meant to compare both the ACs in all. It was just about the take off and climb. Rest about capabilities of JFT, it gives beyond expectations in its class for us, inducted, serving therefore not comparable with Tejas in whole because Tejas isnt finalized yet and don't forget that it is a JV so indeed thing worth capable came out in this JV while PAC put in her best as well so why not to say that JFT is indeed worth an addition to the Air Force..... no?

At some points, surprisingly your own Indian fellows do not miss a chance to call Chinese aerospace as a cheap or etc which is just because of a mindset....no??

However, Tejas was expected something like spectacular after all that budget and time though it will fulfill the duties but that's all in future. Indeed both the ACs are different in qualities and duties. As per capabilities yet declared to be added in Tejas, will no doubt make it a potent aircraft and smart aircraft but still to wait to see that.

However, Tejas disappointment was just because of the time & money spent and still counting though it was hoped to be at least something finalized, not in the context that it doesn't worth to be an aircraft etc but the matter is schedule and delays which are still causing it not to be inducted.
 
Hi,

If I was the decision maker----I would have at this stage swallowed my pride and shut down the Tejas project----and just said---fck it----enough is enough---I have given it way beyond a fair share of time and money---we need an aircraft to fight a war---not to fill out the pockets of the babus and engineers or create jobs---or to stafisfy hurt and unhurt egos----admit the defeat and move ahead with life---and understand the fact that sh-it happens to real living souls in this world.

Sign up with either gripen for NG or Lockheed for F16IN----get production rights and start producing it in india full fledged---I had learnt what I needed to produce an aircraft and now it was time to put the engineers to work on the real things---.

At the time of war---the soldier don't give a fck if it is make in india or make in pakistan----he wants a good weapon that can work and take charge over the enemy. I have an enemy to face that is an absolute ars-ehole and here I am discussing the intricacies of make in india or not make in india---wheras I should have been discussing to be or not to be---wtf.

Now---let me go back----if I had the same choice---I would have shutdown down the production of the JF 17 and gone for the J10B years ago----.

I would not be in this fcking misery that I am in today----the F16 dillema---the JF 17 Blk 2 drama---2 years behind schedule----.

I would have been a J10 centric air force with all my aircraft on level with the F 16 BLK 52---capabilities and upwards after inducting the J10C's for eurofighter / rafale type capabilities.

The same thing here is with the JF 17----. I need to fight a war---I need to start filling the hole at the top rather than fill up the bottom feeders. I don't need no frigging EXPERIMENTS---I face an enemy 3 times the military I have.

We need a war to win---not create a fcking car / aircraft dealership selling aircrafts----where air marshalls are now making car sales pitches---what a fckd up military is it----.

Son---I tell you---there are dumb fckrs on both the sides---otherwise we both be dead by now---or we both had open borders---this frigging mediocrity is screwing us hard.

The word " worthwhile " is a frame of mind---it is a matter of ego---when ego takes over common sense---it controls your thinking process---it is a black hole that pulls you in---it is a classic case of manufacturing GOLD----.

Remember the stories of good old days---when people could be fooled into making gold and spending their fortunes over it----that is where I rate this Tejas project.

Firstly you seriously need to study Tejas.

Secondly there is no Tejas R&D program, its LCA. Tejas is only IAF specified version of MK1. The R&D program is LCA. Ever you heard Navy using word "Tejas".

Thirdly, there is huge difference of R&D infrastructure in India & Pakistan, if you still unable to grasp some fact of life, then you defeating the whole purpose of having intelligence.

And another fact is, the R&D still going to happen even if IAF or Navy refuse to induct,, as prototypes and Technology Demonstrator for AMCA.
 
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If I was the decision maker----I would have at this stage swallowed my pride and shut down the Tejas project----and just said---fck it----enough is enough---I have given it way beyond a fair share of time and money---we need an aircraft to fight a war---not to fill out the pockets of the babus and engineers or create jobs---or to stafisfy hurt and unhurt egos----admit the defeat and move ahead with life---and understand the fact that sh-it happens to real living souls in this world.

Sign up with either gripen for NG or Lockheed for F16IN----get production rights and start producing it in india full fledged---I had learnt what I needed to produce an aircraft and now it was time to put the engineers to work on the real things---.

1. Mastan Bhai time frame of developing the technology, setup the institute, with the aim of developing the whole aerospace ecosystem and parallel turbofan engine program and the budget of 1.2 + 2 Billion in 30 years minus funds unavailable period and sanction period is pretty good. It is late but hardly 3-4 years period.

2. Mastan Bhai SAAB offer for the Grippen for Make in India only after India developed LCA Tejas.

3. However going with you theory, what is the cost of the Grippen and compare it with the LCA Tejas.

4. When the requirement is of light wt small multirole fighter, then how could Mig-21 been replaced with F-16 or Grippen NG on one on one basis for an interceptor Role other wise ADA could have simply designed MKI not a tailess delta platform.

5. Instead of looking on the Babus, look at the hard work of the engineers and scientist who work day and night in ADA and GTRE and their contribution could not be denied.

6. The idea of LCA program is not only a plane but to develop the core technologies in India, to lower the technology gap, and to build the whole aerospace ecosystem. So tell me does the LCA program did that, and are we in wrong path. Think this way.

1. FBW, FACEEC, Composites, Turbofan Engine, Aesa Radar, BVR
2. Tata aerospace, Reliance, Godrej, Mahindra more than 20 aerospace pvt company in India.
3. Prithvi -1 150 km, Liquid fueled (takes 30 min for fuel) g2g ballastic missile and now Shaurya, K-5, K-15, Agni V, Ramjet, Cramjet,



At the time of war---the soldier don't give a fck if it is make in india or make in pakistan----he wants a good weapon that can work and take charge over the enemy. I have an enemy to face that is an absolute ars-ehole and here I am discussing the intricacies of make in india or not make in india---wheras I should have been discussing to be or not to be---wtf.

At the time of war, the soldier fight with whatever they are given, and they do whatever to make best use of it. However Make in India, means they could be produced in numbers if required, other than waiting for some one to send.


Now---let me go back----if I had the same choice---I would have shutdown down the production of the JF 17 and gone for the J10B years ago----.

I think @Horus had given you the answer in one of the thread for this question, however I am confused, why you failed to understand the reason why you don't want to understand it. Its the budget which also have to be seen, and the choice of the fighter planes are not made on the basis of their advertized capabability instead its evaluation and the need for the specific role. If it does not fit the role, then it doesn't matter whether it is highly capable or not.

For J-10 B's this plane don't have a reliable powerplant. It is very good 4+ fighter plane but for the China and PLAAF.
Now I don't know why you failed to understand this simple thing and keep on arguing again and again same stuff and thankx god you didn't named J-11, J-16 because they could not be exported due the IPR issue with the Russia. For China they give priority to the indigenous stuff, because its the need of their status right now.
Even ADA could have flown LCA tejas with Kaveri Engine presently but the engine will remain underpower, and unreliable with less TBO (Stated by the ADA chief himself).

I would not be in this fcking misery that I am in today----the F16 dillema---the JF 17 Blk 2 drama---2 years behind schedule----.

F-16 dillema -- Read the @Horus post about the same, why PAF went for F-16, I am banned in Pakistan defence section so could not give you the link.

JF-17 blk2 drama because R&D demands faith, time, and funds. If you don't know what the problem, challenges they are facing, how do you whether they are doing drama or not. E.g for Block 3 you want to put AESA inside the nose of the bird, but you find out that the limited space creates the problem for the heat decippation.

I would have been a J10 centric air force with all my aircraft on level with the F 16 BLK 52---capabilities and upwards after inducting the J10C's for eurofighter / rafale type capabilities.

J-10 is still evolving, and right now if you are comparing with the F-16, Eurofighter, Rafale, then I think you don't have much technical knowledge. And the choice of not inducting J-10 by PAF is due to the fact that it is still not matured with unreliable Engine, and don't think that PAF decission makers are Idiots. They are in more appropriate position and capable than you and me to make this choice.



The same thing here is with the JF 17----. I need to fight a war---I need to start filling the hole at the top rather than fill up the bottom feeders. I don't need no frigging EXPERIMENTS---I face an enemy 3 times the military I have.

First of all whom you need to fight -- India, then the budget don't permits to have the parity with the IAF in technology and numbers to be frank. Indian Defence budget is 50 Billion just 2.3% of the GDP, and in future this going to increase manifold, so it would be foolish to make comparison, and arm race. I am glad, there are many Sane thinkers in Pakistan, who are not nut to think so. This is what pakistan is doing so e.g AEW SAAB 2000 and if I talk about the PAF, then they did the right by the choice of JF-17 because they have the limited budget and have to replace the ageing old birds the Nanchang Q-5, Mirrage 3/5 and J-7 and still would be able to maintain the present sizable number. To be frank PAF should be appretiated to maintain such numbers even with this limited funds available.

We need a war to win---not create a fcking car / aircraft dealership selling aircrafts----where air marshalls are now making car sales pitches---what a fckd up military is it----.

Son---I tell you---there are dumb fckrs on both the sides---otherwise we both be dead by now---or we both had open borders---this frigging mediocrity is screwing us hard.

The word " worthwhile " is a frame of mind---it is a matter of ego---when ego takes over common sense---it controls your thinking process---it is a black hole that pulls you in---it is a classic case of manufacturing GOLD----.

With Imported weapon you can only win the Battle, but not the WAR.
A fighter planes keeps on evolving and new technologies are included with the change of the challenges and tactics.

The Airforce makes tactics, exercise with it for the time, when it is needed. I will not discuss that the US pilot even if had Mig 29 and Mig 25, and Iraqi F-16 and F-14, the result of the Desert Storm would have been the Same -- Statement of not me but the US air chief but what is important is that the plane which is good for that role.

For the High End IAF already have SU-30MKI, Mirrage 2000 UPG and Mig 29UPG and soon Rafale also, but if need the low end with cheaper flying costing then its the LCA Tejas not the Rafale. The advantage of the indigenous product is the customization of the plane by the Local OEM HAL. And with this bird, we could think of developing AMCA, because development of technologies is the evolutionary process not the revolutionary process, which you are thinking.

You seems to ignore the future development.

1. LCA MK-2 with F-414IN engine
2. EVIC TVC, which will increase the AOA, STR and remove the AOA limitation
3. Indian IFF Data link with Indian algorithm for secreacy.
4. Indian EW Suite designed by DARE including frameless HUD, MAW, RWR, AESA Jammer, AESA MMR in short Indian Spectra.
5. Refinement and reduction of wt. but increase of payload upto 5500kg.
6. Astra 2 with the Buddy Fire control means Tejas using MKI superior radar to target and fire and control.

The time frame of LCA MK2 is 2019 first flight, and FOC till 2024 if I exclude the Uttam AESA and Kaveri to be ready at that time frame, then could you compare it of 45 Million bird with the Grippen - Ng with 80 million bird both with the same engine and TVC, one with the Raven Aesa and one with the ELTA 2052 MMR, one with the costly european munition and one with the Indian Astra 1/2, LGB.

Remember the stories of good old days---when people could be fooled into making gold and spending their fortunes over it----that is where I rate this Tejas project.

I will go with the ADA chief statement -- The Story of LCA Tejas will inspire many Generation.
 
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Your logic is a bit flawed here and that is what i am trying to show. Let me reply point by point...

It wasn't meant to compare both the ACs in all. It was just about the take off and climb. Rest about capabilities of JFT, it gives beyond expectations in its class for us, inducted, serving therefore not comparable with Tejas in whole because Tejas isnt finalized yet and don't forget that it is a JV so indeed thing worth capable came out in this JV while PAC put in her best as well so why not to say that JFT is indeed worth an addition to the Air Force..... no?

Look no one is challenging if JFT was/is good/bad for PAF...this is for you guys to decide...however time and again this "JF-17 being operational" while Tejas not is pulled up again and again is a flawed argument...every AF works in a threat perception and have to plan as per the resources in hands...right on this forum we have been saying that Arab countries are not a good market for Jf-17 or for that matter Tejas because they are cash rich nations, right?? Similarly IAF has far more resources at their disposal as compared with PAF...secondly as per IOC/FOC standards that IAF had/have put for Tejas, if the same rules are applied to JF-17 then you would have notices even that fighter induction would have been severely delayed here...now does that mean PAF is wrong or for that matter IAF?? hell no...different forces, different ways of handling things, different level of resources at disposal and different level of backings(you have china, we have nobody!!)

At some points, surprisingly your own Indian fellows do not miss a chance to call Chinese aerospace as a cheap or etc which is just because of a mindset....no??
At some points, surprisingly you will find my chinese trolls backed by Pakistani trolls claiming that China has surpassed Russian aerospace and now match western world as well...so we live in funny world...my piece of advice...ignore trolls...anybody who says that Indian aerospace industry is more advanced than chinese counterparts then he'she is living in lalala land...Now that doesn't mean we can't beat them in longer run...because we have one obvious advantage over them and that is access to Russian/Israeli/Western technology(obviously not state of art..)....i mean you name any country that is pioneer in this aspect and we have decent relations with them...

However, Tejas was expected something like spectacular after all that budget and time though it will fulfill the duties but that's all in future. Indeed both the ACs are different in qualities and duties. As per capabilities yet declared to be added in Tejas, will no doubt make it a potent aircraft and smart aircraft but still to wait to see that.
Tejas has always been expected to be 4.5 generation aircraft...and we all know that we still have a distance to travel...however even in current configuration this is a decent fighter...it has a naval version as well...and a positive future...and more importantly it has given us an aviation industry...!!

However, Tejas disappointment was just because of the time & money spent and still counting though it was hoped to be at least something finalized, not in the context that it doesn't worth to be an aircraft etc but the matter is schedule and delays which are still causing it not to be inducted.

As said earlier schedule and delays is something that nobody should be bothered...and more importantly comparing JF-17 induction and IAF non induction of Tejas is comparing apples and oranges...To be honest with you Tejas is a spectacular program...it has been criticized for how it was handled however no one is able to appreciate the kind of issues DRDO faced and how they overcome it...and most importantly...it has given us an Industry....Compare that with a decade back...when Indian missiles were touted to be inferior to Pakistani counterparts...right??
 
(you have china, we have nobody!!)

Sir........ Nobody?????? instead you would say like Pakistan has only China while the rest of world is favouring you, arent they? Engines from US (Favored) Dessault help design (favored) Israeli Avionics (Favored) French Favored and etc....

because we have one obvious advantage over them and that is access to Russian/Israeli/Western technology(obviously not state of art..)....i mean you name any country that is pioneer in this aspect and we have decent relations with them...

What about statement of nobody? or this should have been like China is alone standing for her performance while you have all those countries in your favour because of your relations indeed, ain't it?

Tejas has always been expected to be 4.5 generation aircraft...and we all know that we still have a distance to travel...however even in current configuration this is a decent fighter...it has a naval version as well...and a positive future...and more importantly it has given us an aviation industry...!!

Indeed the future is there for LCA Tejas but who knows what happens next however, Tejas has given you aviation industry then i think it should have been debated in the same manner rather calling it ahead of JFT or par with ETC because in this way it doesn't match the category of fighter ACs yet.

.it has given us an Industry.
So till now Tejas has been demonstrator like thing and the next will be a fighter AC (Future) but not yet.
 
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