Revealing Rafale price can give enemies an edge

[Windjammer]

Total Price for which Rafael is being bought is out in public. It's the price components which has been kept secret because it might give a hint as to the quality of weaponary we are purchasing, further Desault doesn't want to disclose the price because it could affect it's negotiations with other clients. Having said that, the Govt has given the price details in a sealed envelope to the SC.

Really if that was the case, i doubt it would end up in the court and then some IAF officer will have to help with it all.

And in our neighborhood, Mard e Momins gets there pant wet if they hear their casualty figures, hence their army won't release the figures because it will affect there morale. Lolz

Well the sordid Sormas just like to pick out the lines that saves their cows neck.
Our soldiers don't exactly fight on the back of the Hanuman that when they die no one knows about it.

 

[Tps43]

Whatever it is Rafale will be most adv Fighter jets of South Asia when India gonna receive them.

 

[anant_s]

i doubt it would end up in the court and then some IAF officer will have to help with it all.

You have to understand the complete court petition here.
Court is discussing a Public Interest Litigation on procurement of a Defence system covered under an Inter Governmental Agreement. Court has asked two things:
1. Why is Rafale being procured if negotiations for earlier MMRCA reached a stalemate?
2. At what price? Also if this price is reasonable and justified.

the second point is the center of whole debate because opposing members feel the rates are much more than what Dassault quoted in MMRCA.
Now here lies the problem of unit cost calculation. The total deal value of $ 7.8 billion for 36 pieces have led to people calculating unit cost simply by $ 7.8 billion / 36 ~ $ 217 million per piece.
However this cost is for variety of items such as weapon packages, infra-structure, training and service and performance guarantees.
In original MMRCA, the structure of deal was markedly different given majority of production was to be done in India.
This current purchase is off the shelf and therefore even though we are buying same hardware, the terms of purchase are extremely different.
If you are following reports, you would've noticed that a bare price is submitted by government so that the same can be compared (with inflation adjustment) to MMRCA bid price.
On question of court calling IAF Generals, they really wish to confirm if Rafale is best choice for IAF requirements as in court's wisdom (& correctly so) users are best judges of a decision made for them (which also answers point 1 above).
This whole deal has actually been dragged needlessly into a domain where people asked to judge for lapses might not be technically competent to do so. However courts usually donot go into technicalities and ask for assistance while making judgments and more concerned with the way procedures are established and then if those procedures were followed with due diligence.
@Vergennes @Abingdonboy

 

[Sine Nomine]

You have to understand the complete court petition here.
Court is discussing a Public Interest Litigation on procurement of a Defence system covered under an Inter Governmental Agreement. Court has asked two things:
1. Why is Rafale being procured if negotiations for earlier MMRCA reached a stalemate?
2. At what price? Also if this price is reasonable and justified.

the second point is the center of whole debate because opposing members feel the rates are much more than what Rafale quoted in MMRCA.
Now here lies the problem of unit cost calculation. The total deal value of $ 7.8 billion for 36 pieces have led to people calculating unit cost simply by $ 7.8 billion / 36 ~ $ 217 million per piece.
However this cost is for variety of items such as weapon packages, infra-structure, training and service and performance guarantees.
In original MMRCA, the structure of deal was markedly different given majority of production was to be done in India.
This current purchase is off the shelf and therefore even though we are buying same hardware, the terms of purchase are extremely different.
If you are following reports, you would've noticed that a bare price is submitted by government so that the same can be compared (with inflation adjustment) to MMRCA bid price.
On question of court calling IAF Generals, they really wish to confirm if Rafale is best choice for IAF requirements as in court's wisdom (& correctly so) users are best judges of a decision made for them (which also answers point 1 above).
This whole deal has actually been dragged needlessly into a domain where people asked to judge for lapses might not be technically competent to do so. However courts usually donot go into technicalities and ask for assistance while making judgments and more concerned with the way procedures are established and then if those procedures were followed with due diligence.
@Vergennes @Abingdonboy

There are many guys who have managed to build their own infrastructure out of this deal.
Don't you think that Chinese or Pakistanis would have been able to get everything about deal if not jet?

 

[SHARMA BHOPALI]

Whatever it is Rafale will be most adv Fighter jets of South Asia when India gonna receive them.

true .

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Now where are all the Gangadeshis who keep bringing up as Pakistan not disclosing it's casualties to the Parliament.
Now you tell me how would say Pakistan benefit if the Rafale price was made public.

Because India payed $3B to France to create PDF accounts that could not be traced back to India.
The accounts will start one stupid thread after another, often bringing up why Russian stuff is better than anything else.

Just one example:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/russ...r-force-in-numbers-game.586854/#post-10941475

This should confuse and annoy Pakistanis so they will forget about discussing important things.

Of course this is just my theory, but can anyone find a better explanation?

 

[anant_s]

Don't you think that Chinese or Pakistanis would have been able to get everything about deal if not jet?

Sir, thats not the point. On question of Chinese intelligence, i'm sure they know a lot about F 22 and F 35 too and as you mentioned sooner or later people come to know about weapon systems their adversaries have.
The agreement is signed under G2G basis and obviously apart from technical angle involved, there is an issue of right of protection of business interests of Dassault. Let us hypothetically say everything is divulged in open public sphere, would it not mount to compromising Dassault's business elsewhere too.
Thing is in guise of getting out the price in open, there could be an attempt to indirectly wriggle out technical details also which could be of grave concern.
May i ask you one question, suppose such a deal was made in Pakistan with consent of armed forces and then similar tactics where applied, what would have happened in Pakistan? what would have happened in any other country?

 

[BATMAN]

A Slap on all the Indians who never stop blabbering about Pakistan's case.

At the same time, it's slap on Pakistani politicians who demand public audit of Pakistan armed forces and want to have a debate over it in parliament.

Yeah never reveal any deals. Not everyone can understand the wisdom of transparency

Sounds like IPI pipeline deal. Not even PTI have balls big enough to make it public.

 

[SHARMA BHOPALI]

Sir, thats not the point. On question of Chinese intelligence, i'm sure they know a lot about F 22 and F 35 too and as you mentioned sooner or later people come to know about weapon systems their adversaries have.
The agreement is signed under G2G basis and obviously apart from technical angle involved, there is an issue of right of protection of business interests of Dassault. Let us hypothetically say everything is divulged in open public sphere, would it not mount to compromising Dassault's business elsewhere too.
Thing is in guise of getting out the price in open, there could be an attempt to indirectly wriggle out technical details also which could be of grave concern.
May i ask you one question, suppose such a deal was made in Pakistan with consent of armed forces and then similar tactics where applied, what would have happened in Pakistan? what would have happened in any other country?

well said .

 

[YeBeWarned]

Whatever it is Rafale will be most adv Fighter jets of South Asia when India gonna receive them.

J-20 ? I think J-31 will be at par if not better than Rafale ..

 

[Areesh]

And in our neighborhood, Mard e Momins gets there pant wet if they hear their casualty figures, hence their army won't release the figures because it will affect there morale. Lolz

And in our neighborhood virat hindus failed to silence mard e momin guns killing other virat hindus despite 4 years of 56 inch chest mass murderer ruling them.

And have now resorted to imagining that they have hundreds and thousands of Pakistani soldiers as the last resort.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Haha typical india.

J

J-20 ? I think J-31 will be at par if not better than Rafale ..

J31/F-31 is 7 years into the future its going to be a 5th gen fighter. Its designed to take out su-35 and rafale like 4.5 gen aircraft in surprise attack if they have no 5th gen buddies to protect them.

F-31 is 10 years into the future as compared to rafale. It has technologies not yet available to the public norm. Even the designers have no clue at the moment.

J-20 or F-31 might never be included in south asian airforce s those are simply whole different ball game.

 

[darksider]

Total Price for which Rafael is being bought is out in public. It's the price components which has been kept secret because it might give a hint as to the quality of weaponary we are purchasing, further Desault doesn't want to disclose the price because it could affect it's negotiations with other clients. Having said that, the Govt has given the price details in a sealed envelope to the SC.

And in our neighborhood, Mard e Momins gets there pant wet if they hear their casualty figures, hence their army won't release the figures because it will affect there morale. Lolz

t
This mard e momin forced your bsf vriat jawans to go on protest because mard e momin killings them.
And what was feeling of four killed recently by mard e momin sniper?
This mard e momin sniper become yamdood for your virat jawans.
This is peeing in pant mard e momin doing to your virat jawans who travel on back hanuman.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/6th-indian-soldier-killed-in-poonch-sector-loc.586642/

 

[AyanRay]

t
This mard e momin forced your bsf vriat jawans to go on protest because mard e momin killings them.
And what was feeling of four killed recently by mard e momin sniper?
This mard e momin sniper become yamdood for your virat jawans.

Again how many Pakistani soldiers died? Ohh that cannot be revealed in fear of pants getting wet... First get your army to reveal the true number of soldiers killed at loc right from Kargil till date then comment about Indian casualties. It's laughable that on one hand rug tag talibaies are killing 100s of your soldiers (it was 1000s few years ago), and on the other hand you guys believe there is hardly any casualty on your eastern side of the border.

 

[darksider]

Again how many Pakistani soldiers died? Ohh that cannot be revealed in fear of pants getting wet... First get your army to reveal the true number of soldiers killed at loc right from Kargil till date then comment about Indian casualties. It's laughable that on one hand rug tag talibaies are killing 100s of your soldiers (it was 1000s few years ago), and on the other hand you guys believe there is hardly any casualty on your eastern side of the border.

Check mard e momin become yamdood for indian hindu virat jawans while he peeing in pants.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/6th-indian-soldier-killed-in-poonch-sector-loc.586642/