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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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Response to The HBS Guy:

1. You come to India.

Which Raymond did.

2. You kill two Indians.

Which Raymond did.

3. Police nabs you.

Which the Punjab Police did.

4. You claim diplomatic immunity.

Which Raymond did.

5. Police checks your passport and visa.

Which the police did, but which Raymond could not produce. Raymond did not produce diplomatic ID. He only made an oral claim.

6. Police contacts the Indian foreign office (which your Punjab police did not).

Does a local police station in Andheri Mumbai have a direct hotline to the Indian Foreign Office in South Block, New Delhi? And does the Indian Foreign Office have a system to respond within a few hours and confirm the identity of an individual? Do you know how these things work? Let me tell you. Police and "law and order" is a provincial subject in Pakistan. It falls under the control of the Provincial Home Department. Foreign Affairs is a federal subject falling under the Federation. A Station House Officer (SHO) of a local police station cannot contact the Foreign Office directly. He must must go up the chain of command. The matter ends up on the desk of the Provincial Inspector General of Police (IGP). The IGP cannot contact the Federation directly. He must go through the Provincial Home Department. Only the Provincial Home Department authorizes contact with the Foreign Office. Do you know how long this takes? More than a couple of days. I'm not even factoring in the time it will take for the police to get a legal opinion from its legal department.

All this time, what is the police supposed to do? Release a man who has shot dead two people on a street in front of dozens of witnesses?

Get real.

7. Police asks the Foreign Office to confirm your diplomatic immunity. (which your Punjab Police did not)

Wrong. Refer to answer to Question 6.

8. If Indian foreign Office says that you have diplomatic immunity, police let's you go. If Indian foreign Office says that you do not have diplomatic immunity, only then you are arrested.
Your police did not perform steps 6 through 8.

Wrong. Refer to answer to Question 6. Furthermore, even if your Foreign Office confirms that he is a diplomat, the police cannot release him if the matter is sub judice before an Indian court of law. You're overlooking the fact that Raymond was produced before a magistrate within 24 hours of his arrest and was remanded into police custody by the magistrate (in other words, he's in judicial custody, not in police detention). And if the Mumbai High Court has expressly ordered the police not to release him (which the Lahore High Court did today), then the police does not have power to release him.

This is standard practice. I'm not making anything up here.

You clearly have no idea about standard practices in Pakistan and I doubt if Indian practices would be much different in similar circumstances, especially in view of the fact that red tape in India is more extensive than in Pakistan.
 
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Refer back to my post where i have clarified the ranks of diplomats.. Counselor is a Diplomatic rank, (google is your best friend). Also Yes counselors can be arrested for grave crimes, they can be tried under the local law under a competent local authority:

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

Articles 42 and 41 of the Convention assure Pakistan this right...

I will list those ranks for your benefit again:
250px-Diphierarchy.png


So you see even if he was a DIPLOMAT, under the convention the host nation can ARREST HIM and present him before a local judge.

This is not a simple matter of Persona Non Grata... This is far more complicated.


Davis is a member of the technical staff. The technical staff have total immunity from criminal prosecution. Unless it is waived by the technical staff members country. There are several precedents to this from past incidents invloving diplomats and supporting staff from around the world.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/22243.pdf
 
RescueRanger;1455367]Refer back to my post where i have clarified the ranks of diplomats.. Counselor is a Diplomatic rank, (google is your best friend). Also Yes counselors can be arrested for grave crimes, they can be tried under the local law under a competent local authority:

No, you are mistaken.

If an American says they have Diplomatic Immunity and the US Ambassador to said country and the US Dept. of State of said country endorse the fact that, in this case Mr. Davis, has Diplomatic Immunity then the host country cannot arrest nor prosecure him.

The Host County can ask that the person with Diplomtic Immunity be expelled or removed from their country and the US is bound to do that with haste.

EXAMPLE: My good late friend, UK Air Vice Marshal P. G. K. (Pete) Williamson when he was an RAF Group Captain was British Air Advisor to Pakistan while I was a junior USAF officer (First Lieutenant) with the US Embassy. But Pete and I were good friends socially.

Pete at a Government of Pakistan reception in the Peshawar area (then the location of the Pakistani Air Force HQ) told then Foreign Minister Bhutto that his, Bhutto's, constant badgering about Kashmir as between Pakistan and India was hindering basic needs of all the people of both nations...schools, education, housing, health, sanitation, you name a basic need category.

FM Bhutto "went into orbit" cursed at Pete and ordered him declared Personna Non Grata and expelled from Pakistan. This was done in due course and I was among friends to see Pete, his wife, and children sail shortly thereafter from Karachi.
 
No, you are mistaken.

If an American says they have Diplomatic Immunity and the US Ambassador to said country and the US Dept. of State of said country endorse the fact that, in this case Mr. Davis, has Diplomatic Immunity then the host country cannot arrest nor prosecure him.

The Host County can ask that the person with Diplomtic Immunity be expelled or removed from their country and the US is bound to do that with haste.

EXAMPLE: My good late friend, UK Air Vice Marshal P. G. K. (Pete) Williamson when he was an RAF Group Captain was British Air Advisor to Pakistan while I was a junior USAF officer (First Lieutenant) with the US Embassy. But Pete and I were good friends socially.

Pete at a Government of Pakistan reception in the Peshawar area (then the location of the Pakistani Air Force HQ) told then Foreign Minister Bhutto that his, Bhutto's, constant badgering about Kashmir as between Pakistan and India was hindering basic needs of all the people of both nations...schools, education, housing, health, sanitation, you name a basic need category.

FM Bhutto "went into orbit" cursed at Pete and ordered him declared Personna Non Grata and expelled from Pakistan. This was done in due course and I was among friends to see Pete, his wife, and children sail shortly thereafter from Karachi.

Wow. You must be senior. In Pakistan, they teach us to respect elders. I'll disagree with you more respectfully next time, Sir.
 
Davis is a member of the technical staff. The technical staff have total immunity from criminal prosecution. Unless it is waived by the technical staff members country. There are several precedents to this from past incidents invloving diplomats and supporting staff from around the world.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/22243.pdf

Your reference does not even mention Article 41 and 42, articles to which a USA is a signatory :
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

Secondly

However, the immunity concept would never have endured if its application left the receiving state helpless to react to the commission of serious crimes in its territory or without recourse when foreign diplomats abuse the civil law rights of its citizens.

In order to understand that some control must be retained, one need only recall the sense of outrage expressed by U.S. citizens whenever diplomatic immunity thwarts prosecution of a serious crime by a diplomat assigned to the United States.

For this reason, the principle developed that all persons enjoying privileges and immunities also have the obligation and duty to respect the laws and regulations of the receiving state. This principle is expressly stated in both the VCDR and the VCCR.

In addition, the receiving state has the right to declare any person entitled to diplomatic privileges and immunities to be persona non grata (PNG) at any time and without stating a reason. When declared PNG, a person has a certain period of time to depart the country before being divested of all privileges and immunities. Failing such departure, the person faces any pending legal actions (civil or criminal) with only the defences available to an ordinary citizen.

And i refer you back to:

Article 41
Personal inviolability of consular of icers
1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.

3. If criminal proceedings are instituted against a consular officer, he must appear before the competent authorities.

Nevertheless, the proceedings shall be conducted with the respect due to him by reason of his official position and, except in the case specified in paragraph 1 of this article, in a manner which will hamper the exercise of consular functions as little as possible. When, in the circumstances mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article, it has become necessary to detain a consular officer, the proceedings against him shall be instituted with the minimum of delay.

The above is a law that all nations has signed to and abide by, im sorry but USA's "tech staff" are not above and beyond that of any other nation that signed this document.

To even suggest that is preposterous.
 
( i found this comment in Express news)
By:
Insider
11 hours ago
Reply
Inside Story – Breaking News
USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.
 
( i found this comment in Express news)
By:
Insider
11 hours ago
Reply
Inside Story – Breaking News
USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.

This will prove to be the last nail in US PAK relations.
 
This will prove to be the last nail in US PAK relations.

Maybe some unknown person just wanted to add more massala to the situation or maybe it was meant to be a veiled fore warning?
 
US-Pakistan relations strained as 'CIA agent' held by court over shootings​

US-Pakistan relations strained as 'CIA agent' held by court over shootings | World news | The Guardian

Lahore Shooting: Pakistan Refuses to Release U.S. Official Accused in Shooting​

Lahore Shooting: Pakistan Refuses to Release Raymond Davis - ABC News

Davis to Face the Music as he violated Pakistani Laws, Kaira tells NA​

ONLINE - International News Network

Senate Demands Free and Fair Trial of Raymond Davis

ONLINE - International News Network
 
( i found this comment in Express news)
By:
Insider
11 hours ago
Reply
Inside Story – Breaking News
USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.

Impossible..... :disagree:
 
You know, i was just wondering... It would have been easier for the US to just say this guy was with the MSG detail at the consulate, they are permitted to carry weapons as part of their duty and they could have just said that he had stored the gun in the vehicle as a precautionary measure.

They could even have made up a BS story about the car's dodgy number plate being part of their protocol of blending in. However by going round the houses and being silent on some issues the US has only made a delicate situation far worse.
 
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While Pakistan is yet to clear the air on the status of “Raymond Davis”, the U.S. continues to maintain silence over his identity. At the daily briefing in Washington, Assistant Secretary of State Philip Crowley refused to disclose the name of the American national and dodged questions on whether embassy staff can carry weapons. Neither did he explain why the man was travelling on an “official visa” and not a “diplomatic visa” as was evident from the photocopies of his passport and visa that have been shown in the Pakistani media.

The Hindu : News / International : Lahore court order on U.S. staffer
 
( i found this comment in Express news)
By:
Insider
11 hours ago
Reply
Inside Story – Breaking News
USA is planning to have a small commando action to release Davis. The operation is suppose to last for fifteen minutes by specialized USA commandos, as time limit provided. Next 48 hours are very crutial.

not possible ... USA can't do any thing...
So much media focus on issue .. on one man.... court case .. he can't go out of Pakistan...

and if USA is able to get him out of Pakistan .. via diplomatic pressure GOP should resign and leave the country immediately to save their life

if USA do some kind of commando mission (which is not possible even in dreams) .. Military bosses should go home for ever ...
 
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