Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I thought the U.S. declared taleban an enemy (and a terrorist group)?

that's just a tad bit bizarre.

Bro... I speak with experience that the way certain people do politics is more bizarre than the best science fiction...

We Pakistanis are actually very simple people... trust me the most cunning Pakistani does not compare anything with some of our rivals...

What works best for us is our straight forwardness... and use cunning in war only... the more upfront and assertive our diplomacy is, the better we will fare in the long run...

 

[Awesome]

That seems to conflict with the 1961 Vienna Convention which makes the FO alone the judge of such matters. Reference, please.

The Foreign Ministry is a part of the federal government. I'm saying the same thing, however the FO itself has deferred this decision to the Judicial system, as you'd see the Foreign Secretary Say the matter is sub-judice in the courts. The FO would still be the one presenting all the evidence for or against immunity.

 

[American Eagle]

You misunderstand and misinterpert US laws.

Under the Patriot Act, a relatively new US law, due to the ongoing war on terrorism, the US can use it's allies to assist in language and cultural factor mediation and interpretation, which is what your posting is about.

As regards the other poster who you dismiss he is entirely correct and suit for wrongful imprisonment is a remedy available to him in the US legal system.

This all revolves around Diplomatic Immunity and your presumption that DI does not exist for Mr. Davis and the presumption based on US and International Law, Convention, and Treaties of the President of the United States that Mr. Davis is covered by complete Diplomatic Immunity.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?

something about ''moral'' ????

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

IB: Sir, RD's case may very well have many layers of complexity, but the boundaries of the issues have already been carefully and closely defined, and no further digging up would benefit anybody. You may of course disagree with me here, but I am sure you will understand why I say this.

I disagree with you - there is a important reason for highlighting the illegal and suspect conduct of Raymond Davis (and various other 'diplomats' over the last few years) for reasons I touched upon a couple of posts ago. The GoP has let these goons run around flouting the law, and that is directly responsible for Raymond Davis being where he was, illegally armed, and the subsequent deaths. Without highlighting these flagrant violations of Pakistani law, aided and abetted by the Pakistani Government, the larger issue remains unresolved.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

something about ''moral'' ????

_Yeah, just like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.( feel free to fill in the belanks!

 

[Solomon2]

the Pakistani courts will determine whether this consultant/tech. advisor had immunity in the first place

This appears to be an illegal procedure.

Self-defence argument has already been ruled out --though the capable and applicable courts can confirm that, not members of PDF.

The point is that Davis should have been released immediately because he has full immunity. Even if his immunity was of the "consular" sort he should have been released once the police in the scene determined they had no cause to suspect him of the "grave crime" of murder.

If there is a hit and run involving vehicular manslaughter in DC or Miami or anywhere else in the US --it is a felony. A serious crime.

In seventh grade one of my classmates was killed by a drunken driver. The driver was not charged with committing a felony.

most likely, the operators of that vehicle have been priority rushed out of the country......flight from justice before he/they could even be remanded or questioned.

People with immunity aren't supposed to be held for questioning.

the davis case has proven to be a mockery of justice; as every day passes, the U.S. is harming its relations with Pakistan --especially the common man Pakistani.

It doesn't have to be that way. A person with diplomatic immunity CAN be prosecuted but the correct venue is a court of the state that sent him. Since most countries don't bother with the effort of sending police officials and eyewitnesses overseas that usually means no case can be made so nothing happens. However, I would guess that if Davis was kicked out the GoP actually would make such an effort.

- and it's a shame, given our history since independence and given our partnership during the cold war.

Yes, shame. But the common element between now and then is the Pakistani expectation that the Americans will always step in and save them without the necessity of any Pakistani sticking their neck out. It will take a long time to change this - and it won't happen at all unless Pakistanis really want to change and start thinking like free people, rather than peasants.

I do trust our courts though.

After Taseer's death I doubt Pakistani judges see themselves as immune from the persuasive threat of assassination.

Quite amazing (amusing?) that Davis has access to a jail superintendant every time he throws a tantrum -

Why not? From Davis' point of view he isn't supposed to be in prison at all - and the superintendant knows it. Even if the U.S. government does nothing, someday Davis or his estate will sue in U.S. civil court, alleging wrongful imprisonment and seeking damages from all concerned. And the jail superintendant should be very, very concerned.






Pearls before swine!! [/QUOTE]

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You misunderstand and misinterpert US laws.

Under the Patriot Act, a relatively new US law, due to the ongoing war on terrorism, the US can use it's allies to assist in language and cultural factor mediation and interpretation, which is what your posting is about.

As regards the other poster who you dismiss he is entirely correct and suit for wrongful imprisonment is a remedy available to him in the US legal system.

I am not misunderstanding or misinterpreting anything - a Canadian Muslim man was wrongfully detained and imprisoned by the US, and then sent by the US to be imprisoned and tortured overseas. It doesn't get any more 'wrongful imprisonment' than that, and both a Republican and Democratic administration have defended the atrocities this poor, innocent Canadian man was subjected to by the US Government.

Your defence of this atrocity only further substantiates the argument of American double standards and moral and ethical bankruptcy when it comes to any argument of 'equal application of the laws' for all human beings.

This all revolves around Diplomatic Immunity and your presumption that DI does not exist for Mr. Davis and the presumption based on US and International Law, Convention, and Treaties of the President of the United States that Mr. Davis is covered by complete Diplomatic Immunity.

Given the various statements out of the US mission, as well as Raymond Davis's location, and his own statements to Pakistani officials, he is a consulate employee, and therefore the relevant conventions do allow for his prosecution by the host nation if his crimes are deemed 'grave' by a judicial authority.

 

[Solomon2]

by the way, and i reiterate it again and again --- the courts will decide whether it was self-defence or not.

And during such an investigation a diplomat with even partial immunity isn't supposed to be jailed or questioned, and one with full immunity is supposed to be released, period.

if i am not mistaken, he was unauthorized to be carrying a weapon and he was driving a vehicle with fake registration --in fact he wasn't even authorized to be on the road where he was.

Even if true, Davis surrenders none of his immunity by such a violation; all you can do is expel him.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And speaking of 'American callousness over the loss of life', the US Consulate hasn't even bothered replying to the Punjab Government and police's various inquiries about the individuals involved in the death of the innocent bystander.

At the very least, at least from any respectable and law abiding mission, one would have expected cooperation from US consulate officials, even if only to clarify who the employees were and that they (possibly) had immunity from prosecution. From the very beginning the US Embassy, Consulate and various US legislators and officials have behaved like arrogant thugs, blackmailing and threatening Pakistan in order to get it to accept its demands.

 

[Awesome]

Sounds like a lot of Pakistanis badly need education on these issues.

Actually you badly need to stop talking like we're stupid. This is a case of the American state, involved in terrorist activities in Pakistan. We are blunt nation, and when wronged, we openly and unabashedly take the enemy on.

No, you don't. The killings qualify as a "grave crime" only if the intent of murder can be proved.

I have 47 eyewitnesses witnesses, what have you got?

However, it seems likely Davis has the full immunity usually granted to security men. Hasn't anybody interviewed his Pakistani counterparts in the U.S.? I imagine they have the same level of immunity. Nothing unusual there.

Security men? Wasn't he IT staff? Not according to the FO manual in Pakistan which recognizes him as non-diplomatic staff and I quote once again:

Leadership under pressure on Davis | Newspaper | DAWN.COM

FO’s protocol manual 2010 edition accords ‘non-diplomatic status’ to the ‘administrative and technical staff’ of foreign missions. This designation as ‘non-diplomatic staff’, according to FO officials, qualifies personnel working in this cadre only for limited immunity in respect of acts performed during the course of duties.

Based on what happened after the Mumbai attack, I put much more faith in the initial police reports than a politicized investigation. After Mumbai Pakistani police quickly found the home village and family of the surviving gunman, but were then ordered to suppress that information for many months. link On what grounds do high-ranking law enforcement officials possess greater credibility now than they did then?

The high ranking ones are still in your pocket and singing the American tune. I'm with the low level ones. The only high ranking official, Shah Mehmood Qureshi that spoke against the American position was fired from his job.

Yes, they have dithered. It is against international law but the FO is doing so. I suppose that after Tasser's popular murder every official is afraid to do something unpopular among the armed and angry folk.

They are YOUR people, they just fired their main man for you. You don't even give them the kindness to give them some time to cook up a backdated immunity for your man when he has none?

This is a question I should be asking, why is it taking them so long to say if he has immunity or not? If they come up with immunity in three weeks, that just appears highly suspicious.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi pointed to the same fact that the court did not surprise this on them and gave them 2 weeks to figure out their paper work:

FO plea for more time shocks Qureshi

“I am absolutely shocked that the Foreign Office has asked for more time to ascertain whether Raymond Davis enjoys immunity or not. This is very, very unusual and rather fishy. The Foreign Office should have presented their case. I really do not know and have no idea as to what has happened after I left the Foreign Ministry. Did not the Foreign Office know two weeks ago that they were required to submit their response today? It is not that the Lahore High Court has all of a sudden asked the Foreign Office for a response. Under my leadership we had given our decision. I examined the documents placed before me and in my considered opinion, I agreed with the Foreign Office’s stand. I had taken this decision to the Prime Minister”, Shah Mehmood told The News.

There you go, the Foreign Office's decision of immunity was given to the PM and then the PM fired him for that decision and now after his removal we know what that decision was. So really, don't pretend to be upset with the federal government, when your people and they are hands in glove.

Sounds to me like you've already convicted him and a sentence of nothing less than death will satisfy you.

On the contrary, a court's decision indeed finding him acting in self-defence is fine with me. What won't satisfy Pakistan is the immunity plea, as that gives your people (which number over 1000) a licence to kill my people. It is a question of self-preservation.

Under international law the U.S. isn't supposed to present papers to a Pakistani court but to the FO. The FO then intervenes. This, the FO is afraid to do.

The papers you have presented clearly indicate that he is technical and administrative staff - the word diplomat hasn't been used in written papers, till now.

I have already quoted earlier in this post, how the FO manual 2010 edition interprets the meaning of technical and administrative staff... Since you have a tendency to forget, that means "non-diplomatic staff". Repeat after me, "non-diplomatic staff".

It doesn't surprise me so much. How many Pakistani officials are willing to take an unpopular stand merely out of moral and legal concerns?

Yeah like they are supporting the "popular" drone attacks, or took the "popular" kerry lugar aid? We don't call it Amreekistan for nothing.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

This appears to be an illegal procedure.

how so

The point is that Davis should have been released immediately because he has full immunity.

proof?

Even if his immunity was of the "consular" sort he should have been released once the police in the scene determined they had no cause to suspect him of the "grave crime" of murder.

you need to read up a little bit more

In seventh grade one of my classmates was killed by a drunken driver. The driver was not charged with committing a felony.

that's because the driver evidently didn't flee from the scene.

Drunken driving = misdemeanor

Vehicular manslaughter = can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony punishable by a term in state prison, depending on the circumstances (e.g. priors, BAC, and other factors not limited to just how strict the judge is)


surely you don't need me to educate you on your own laws

People with immunity aren't supposed to be held for questioning.

under most circumstances, you are right...however, this consultant/tech advisor engaged in unauthorized use of a weapon while committing his act.

I trust the courts in conjunction with the FO and MoI will determine the haves and have-nots.

It doesn't have to be that way. A person with diplomatic immunity CAN be prosecuted but the correct venue is a court of the state that sent him.

given that the driver of the other vehicle has not been presented to court (not will he likely be) -- Davis could possibly be treated as a flight risk. US assured cooperation, so hopefully after all this hulabaloo and threats to cut aid and what have you, the US will assure Pakistan that Davis will face a fair and neutral trial in his native country.

Yes, shame. But the common element between now and then is the Pakistani expectation that the Americans will always step in and save them without the necessity of any Pakistani sticking their neck out. It will take a long time to change this - and it won't happen at all unless Pakistanis really want to change and start thinking like free people, rather than peasants.

thanks for exposing your true colours and sentiments and confirming what some (even overly-emotional) Pakistanis perceive your attitude to be

After Taseer's death I doubt Pakistani judges see themselves as immune from the persuasive threat of assassination.

your diversionary tactics and sensationalism won't work here, Suleyman

Why not? From Davis' point of view he isn't supposed to be in prison at all - and the superintendant knows it.

do share more info, you seem quite privy to the investigation.

That's right --investigation. His immunity has not been proven. Furthermore, hit and run suspects in a seperate yet associated case are on the loose --scott free.

Even if the U.S. government does nothing, someday Davis or his estate will sue in U.S. civil court, alleging wrongful imprisonment and seeking damages from all concerned. And the jail superintendant should be very, very concerned.

with all due respect, I think they could care less

as for the jail superintendant, are you referring to the one who (stupidly) put down the Jumaa Azan speaker because Davis squealed and flapped his arms and legs over it?

how many prisons do you know where suspects can cry like sissies and have their demands heeded to? What a banana republic we are if murder suspects get mineral water and preferential treatment. (we should be enraged also about those who showered Qadri with petals)

In U.S. prisons, inmates dont even get toilet paper

but we digress....

 

[Solomon2]

Almost every major Pakistani paper that I have read has carried articles both in support of and against the argument that Davis has blanket immunity from prosecution for the murder of two Pakistanis and his other crimes.

Here is a sampling of three articles just from today's Express Tribune:

Raymond Davis case: Bitter truths – The Express Tribune
Ghairat and other issues – The Express Tribune
Not for the court to decide – The Express Tribune

Thank you. I think I will spend more time reading these papers. Is there some reason you don't find these authors' arguments convincing?

Properly analyzing the facts related to an argument you intend to make, especially when accusing an entity (in this case the Pakistani media) of one sided bias, would be in order next time.

Accepted.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The foreign office already determined and stated there is no immunity...

The only problem is US loyalists fired him from the position.

If you can understand urdu, he says it loud and clear

So really why are they taking so long? It takes time to fire one guy after he said so on TV and then they need time to create fake papers!

The Foreign Office is being reshuffled, ostensibly to remove any officials refusing to distort the facts in the Raymond Davis case.

Shake-up in the Foreign Office – The Express Tribune

This 'three week' timeline requested by Zardari and the PPP will be used for working on two tracks to free Davis illegally:

1. Forging the necessary documentation to provide Davis with immunity and/or putting in place pliable officials in the Foreign Office who will lie about Davis having immunity to the court.

2. Working over the families of the victims to make them accept compensation and 'pardon' Davis. We already have reports that threats and coercion are being used to accomplish this, whereas under Islamic law such a pardon is supposed to be voluntary.

No doubt Zardari/Gillani and the PPP would prefer the second option, since it absolves them of taking a position either in support of Davis's immunity or against it.

 

[Solomon2]

Pakistani law enforcement stopped US and other Western diplomats several times over the last year or two when they were traveling in areas they were not authorized to be in, and carrying weapons they were not authorized to carry. The GoP ordered the release of the individuals involved in these cases with absolutely no consequences for the diplomats and missions concerned - and by consequences I am referring to expulsion of the concerned individuals, and perhaps even the head of the missions (if the incidents did not cease) to send a message that such flagrant violations of Pakistani laws and procedures would not be tolerated. Had the above been done when these cases were coming to light in the past year or so, we might not have had 'Raymond Davis' roaming around in an unauthorized area, illegally carrying weapons. For this we only have our wonderful Zardari/PPP led government to blame.

I did not know about these previous incidents and assuming your description of them is correct I agree with you. The repeated failure to expel personnel caught with illegal weapons could only be interpreted as a signal of Pakistani acquiescence if not quiet encouragement.