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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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Pakistan Delays Ruling on Jailed American

By JANE PERLEZ
Published: February 17, 2011

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — A provincial court gave the Pakistani government three weeks on Thursday to decide whether the American official in custody for killing two Pakistanis has diplomatic immunity, a decision that amounts to a slap to the United States, the nation’s biggest donor and an ally in the fight against terror.

The decision came a day after a whirlwind visit by Senator John Kerry who tried to find a quick resolution to the case which has severely damaged relations between the two countries and exposed the weakness of the pro-American government headed by President Asif Ali Zardari.
 
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I thought the American's were gonna provide some paperwork to courts today to be able to get him out. Why didn't they do it when they are so confident that he is indeed a diplmat and according to sen Kerry they have paper work that supports their stance?
 
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While you guys might be happy about American pain, I have a question. Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?
It is not that only US needs your help, you also need them.
 
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While you guys might be happy about American pain, I have a question. Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?
It is not that only US needs your help, you also need them.
You assumption uses the word 'IF', taking the same assumption farward is it not worth a fight 'IF' the men were not robers? (atleast thats what the official investigation says)

Secondly, I frankly think it is important to draw a clear line for the US, it is not Iraq they are in, its Pakistan. Next time their trigger happy agents will think twice before opening fire. We are boiling over drones and this is taking our patience to the next level. As a Pakistani, I shouldn't feel intimidated by foriegners in my own country.
 
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You assumption uses the word 'IF', taking the same assumption farward is it not worth a fight 'IF' the men were not robers? (atleast thats what the official investigation says)

Secondly, I frankly think it is important to draw a clear line for the US, it is not Iraq they are in, its Pakistan. Next time their trigger happy agents will think twice before opening fire. We are boiling over drones and this is taking our patience to the next level. As a Pakistani, I shouldn't feel intimidated by foriegners in my own country.

About bolded part, you have by now already sent a message. Overdoing it might not be right. But I agree you should send a message that they cannot do whatever this wish too. Rest your decision, your country.
 
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This guy needs to be shot dead in a similar way period.

This post is an example why the two week delay in proceedings is actually GOOD. It will allow tempers to cool down and perhaps improve rational thought on both sides to resolve the issue satisfactorily.
 
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This post is an example why the two week delay in proceedings is actually GOOD. It will allow tempers to cool down and perhaps improve rational thought on both sides to resolve the issue satisfactorily.
Sorry i get carried away sometime but looking at the attitude of americans on some forums i do think it might be a good option.Giving options like we should bomb pakistan to get him back etc.
 
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Sorry i get carried away sometime but looking at the attitude of americans on some forums i do think it might be a good option.Giving options like we should bomb pakistan to get him back etc.

I do appreciate your realizing that you got carried away, and trust me, I also appreciate the anger that everybody is feeling right now.

However, ANGER was something that Mohammed (PBUH) disliked for a very good reason: It causes one to do things that one surely regrets later but are sometimes irreversible.

The best counter-attack is driven by intelligent planning, not blind rage.
 
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First please understand that I write from my home here in the SE USA. I am basically retired (but still do some small work occasionally as a consultant, and such). I normally enjoy current and past military exchanges, so this unhappy topic has been a new avenue where I feel honesty of purpose and American perspective are required so that those you who have a different culture and in some instances a different value sysytem can better understand where I, alone by perhaps atypical of the average Westerner, am coming from. ***Those of you living, studying, and/or working in European nations, Canada, or the US should know that we have largely the same legal process in general, but US juris prudence is perhaps the best worldwide as all charged invididuals have built in Constitutional rights that cannot be abridged, the same as Mr. Davis overseas has Internation Law, ie, Diplomatic Immunity, as a protection for himself until his home nation, with him depoted back to the US, can use it's legal system to investigate, evaluate, charge if appropriate, and if needs be then try Mr. Davis, should the facts then warrant a trial.

No one in their right mind disregards deaths by violence.

Aware US citizens genuinely grieve for the two deceased robbers and also for one of their widows who chose to take her own life. These are sensitive areas of human relationships we all should agree, but the emotions and sentiments are outside of the requirements to have Diplomatic Immunity involved not to merely "free up" Mr. Davis but to return him to his home country where our legal system can investigate and take whatever actions that can lead to a court charge and then a due process court case here.

The above comments by and from me require me to explain that I am a founder of the Chuck Colson Prison Fellowship here in Alabama and in the Greater Birmingham City Area. This says that laws in the US can incarcerate, even sentence to death found guilty persoons who are so found by our clear cut legal processes and system. But the people, even the found guilty people, are still the children of God and we work with them as long as it takes, and in the case of capial crimes committed with those on Death Row until the time of their legal execution here.

This simplified means we separate the sin from the sinner and seek eternal salvation for the sinner as my faith, Christianity (I am a Protestant) teaches if a man will genuinly and honestly repent of his sins God will forgive him. Thus even a found guilty person waiting for execution can have made a positive and binding peace with God to then know they have the Hope and Assurance of salvation and eternal life.

This said, if you can read the most recent three or four days of postings therein you will find that the US Department of State, US Embassy inside Pakitan, did authorize and required Mr. Davis to carry fire arms in conjunction with his diplomatic job.

That closes your fire arms found in Mr. Davis car question out as far as I am concerned in that Mr. Davis was faced with armed bandits who in his view threatened his life, limb, and cash. Please remember that Mr. Davis had just goten in plain public view cash at a Paksitani bank ATM.

I, me only, think the two robbers cased Mr. Davis getting cash from the ATM, and knowing that most Westerners carry cell phones, looked forward to stealing both his cash and his cell phones.

A pay slip which was posted onto this site and which first appeared in the Karachi DAWN this week is a fake, fraud, not genuine, and someone there is merely spreading false and faked information to try and cause unnecessary and falsified trouble for Mr. Davis.

How can I make these assertions from here in the USA?


I am a retired US Civil Service management official, with broad management personnel management experience over a 25 year federal civil service career from which I am now retired. I am also retired from 31 years in the Air Force Reserve, six years active duty, to include 18 months overseas US Embassy duty there in Pakistan, and 25 years in the paid USAF Reserve with duty my last 10 reserve years at the Joint Chiefs of Staff level as a Colonel.

I am used to and helped develop in our US Government (both in he the US Public Health Service and in the US Department of Veterans Affairs) contracting out employee paperwork. All this was discussed by me several, many days ago on this thread.

Boiled down The company Mr. Davis is with, which he and his wife may very well own as a simple partnership, the company, not the Person of Mr. Davis, contracts with the US State Dept. This causes the State Dept. to have a career diplomatic employee was long as State actively contracts with the company which in turn furnishes to the US Dept. of State. This fact tells me, and I now voluntarily share with you, that as State pays the company to supply Mr. Davis then State classifies Mr. Davis as it's diplomat as part of their administrative and technical staff. Mr. Davis is as much a diplomat with DI standing as any other US State Dept. He now is an employee, ie, as in a diplomat, as are other US Dept of State otherwise admistrative or technical staffers.

Here again US law understands the ins and outs. It may have taken the Pakistani Foreign Office a while to understand the above legal facts to then issue the FO letter to the Paksitani Interior Ministry acknowledging that Mr. Davis has full Diplomatic Immunity. But clearly the Pakistani Foreign Office now understands these personnel ins and out unique to the US Government, all departmens, commissions, boards thereof.

Reading all the facts concering the two robbers per Pakistani police report had 5 cell phones between them, two of which matched up with the just robbed same day honorable Pakistani 2 gentlemen, whose phones (1 each) and cash, amount in Pakistani currency spelled out in Police report but I forget the amount...point is the two Pakistani gentlemen's phones and cash were recovered by Police in Lahore same day at the scene of the failed robbery attempt on Mr. Davis. "Hot stolen goods" is what describes in US terms was found on the persons of the two robbers after the Davis event.

I have tried to oblidge, to analyze, part of your questions but I stop now and point out again the legal process many of you may not be familiar with.

Any diplomat as defined by Article 31 of the Geneva Convention on status of diplomats vs. local laws and customs abroad, as well as associatred Treaties, Mr. Davis has 100% diplomatic immunity so further details and processes should await his return to the USA, where US authorities will then investigate the entire scenario after Diplomatic Immunity has first been obeyed.

Senator Kerry promised US Justice Dept. complete and thorough investigation once Davis is retured per Diplomatic Immunity to US. This statement in the worldwide media worldwide was made with the full recognition that President Obama charged Senator Kerry to act as his special envoy for Kerry's current visit to Pakistan.

American justice always, not sometimes, but always presumes innocent until proven guilty. Thus Mr. Davis will most likely be kept on a short leash once back in the US and be before US justice and court system on an expedited basis would be my best guess.

Politely put but factually meant the courts inside Pakistan due to Mr. Davis having DI as now vouched for in writing by the Pakistani Foreign Office and as further certified as having 100% Diplomtic Immunity by the US State Dept. do not and did never in terms of Internaional Law have jurisdiction over Mr. Davis. The Pakistani FO letter has worldwide standing and is the valid and proper within Pakistan response. This FO letter from yesterday recognizes on behalf of the Pakistan Government Mr. Davis as having full, 100%, Diplomatic Immunity. That is not to say that Mr. Davis walks away when returned to the US.

Once back in the USA Mr. Davis will face an full and through judical review, charging if deemed appropirate, and then a court case process for trail, if that is what our laws decide is the right course of action. All of the US legal proceedings you can be assured will be covered daily in the worldwide media for you to continue tracking Mr. Davis under US legal due process.

Summarized Pakistan has a very different legal system, which has recently contributed to things like President Musharraf resigning from office, and ways and means of practicing law that differs from the US legal system. This is why any nation's diplomat has DI so that anyone involved in such a scenario as Mr. Davis will face proper justice review and associated actions, future tense, under the proper laws of his home nation.

Have a good day.
 
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About bolded part, you have by now already sent a message. Overdoing it might not be right. But I agree you should send a message that they cannot do whatever this wish too. Rest your decision, your country.

Agreed. But the situation on ground is at a tipping point now. Blame it on who you can but its a reality. So the gov however incompetent might be is right when it says that there is devil on one side and deep blue sea on the other. Those sitting in US must understand this and find a way forward in a 'legit' manner. Forgery at this stage will bring everything to ground zero, really it would mean our struggle to get justice in this case is at the behest of a few papers that US can generate at any time. So we need a solution that satisfies all sides In a 'legit' way and there is a way forward.

Islam is a beautiful relegion, it always provides ways for people to reconcile even incase of murder. The families can pardon RD and the situation can be diffused without violence. The relegious parties can say nothing against it. We will have made our point that 'IF' anything of this sort is to happens again, expect no forgery and full justice. This in my view can be an ideal end to the RD saga. All sides win.
 
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Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions

A court in Pakistan has delayed a hearing to decide whether an American who shot dead two men in Lahore last month has diplomatic immunity. The arrest of Raymond Davis has severely damaged relations between the countries. Much of the detail in the case remains unclear - the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan looks at some of the unanswered questions.

Is Raymond Davis a diplomat?

If you are thinking of a suavely dressed man in a three-piece suit who holds meetings with local officials to further or broaden his country's agenda, you would be wrong. Mr Davis was definitely not employed for his diplomatic skills - he is more a "hands-on" person, working in what the US embassy says is its "administrative and technical affairs section". Reports from the US say he is a former special forces soldier who left the military in 2003 and is working for the US embassy in Pakistan. As such, the US insists he is covered by the Vienna Convention which guarantees immunity from prosecution for all diplomatic staff.

Could he be a spy?

Many Pakistanis believe he is - there seem few other credible explanations as to why he was going around Lahore with a Glock pistol in a car with local number plates without informing local authorities. It is a requirement for embassy staff - especially those from Western embassies - to inform local police of their movements, simply because they are prime targets for militants in Pakistan. Mr Davis's department in the US embassy is widely seen in Pakistan as a cover for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operations. Mr Davis himself said he was a consultant employed by the US government. Researchers in the US say that since leaving the military, Mr Davis worked for a security firm called Hyperion LLC. But subsequent investigations by the US media have now shown that Hyperion exists only as a website. The offices that the company says it has in Orlando have been vacant for several years and the numbers on its website are unlisted.

Can Mr Davis be convicted for the murders?

Maybe. It all depends on how eager the Pakistani authorities are to punish him. The fact that he is possibly a spy does not mean he is not covered by diplomatic immunity. It is common practice for intelligence services across the world to send operatives under the cover of assignments to embassies. Both Pakistani and US "diplomats" have been caught in such situations - and every time have been asked to leave the host country immediately with no possibility of a return. That is the maximum punishment that has been levied in the overwhelming majority of cases in countries which have signed the Vienna Convention. However, in some countries there are exceptions for serious offences committed, such as murder. Pakistan is one of those countries. The matter is now in the hands of the judiciary. But it is important to remember that Mr Davis has been charged with murder - the maximum sentence here is the death penalty.

Should Mr Davis have been carrying a gun?

Legally speaking, only Pakistani citizens with licences issued by the interior ministry are allowed to carry arms. No foreigner is allowed to carry arms, except soldiers or guards within the premises of an embassy. Both Pakistani nationals and foreigners caught carrying arms can be charged under a Pakistani criminal law which stipulates a jail term of six months to two years in addition to a fine. Mr Davis has also been charged under this law.

Was he acting in self-defence?

That was the initial plea made by Mr Davis and the US embassy. However, subsequent investigations by the police, forensic labs and the local and international media suggest that the two men were driving away from Mr Davis when they were shot. In February Lahore's police chief said that Mr Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - he said that no fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men. Furthermore he said that tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazines of their guns, not the chambers, suggesting they weren't about to shoot him. On the face of it, this leaves Mr Davis's claim that they were robbers - with one even apparently cocking a gun at his head - looking very thin. In addition, police say ballistics evidence shows that the pair were shot in the back - which again suggests they were moving away from Mr Davis, rather than about to attack him.

Who were the Pakistanis that Mr Davis shot?

In his initial statement, Mr Davis said they were robbers who were trying to steal his valuables. He and the US embassy have maintained this story. However, the men have no criminal records as such. Both have been identified as residents of Lahore by the police. The pair were carrying licensed pistols - a fact which led many to believe they might indeed have been robbers. However, security sources in Lahore say that they were part-time or low-level operatives for the local intelligence services. Although reports are sketchy about what they were doing in relation to Mr Davis, security officials believe it could be the case of a surveillance operation gone horribly wrong. Pakistani intelligence services routinely tail and monitor all embassy staff, Western or otherwise.

What about the second car and its victim?

A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply.

What about behind-the-scenes negotiations?

As well as public pressure, US officials have also privately warned Pakistan's government of far-reaching and severe consequences if Mr Davis is convicted. Unnamed US officials have also used the media to issue veiled warnings to Pakistan that diplomatic ties could be cut and all aid stopped. Despite Islamabad's public stance on Mr Davis, Pakistani officials are said to have privately assured Washington that he will eventually be released. However, public pressure means that at the moment this could lead to a massive anti-government backlash. Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has hinted that blood money could be paid to the families of the two men Mr Davis admits shooting, which could enable his release. There is speculation that US officials may try to establish contacts with the families in this regard. However, it is not clear that Mr Davis has been charged under laws which would allow blood money to be paid.


BBC News - Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions
 
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Initially, Davis, who is facing murder charges, misbehaved with Awan’s subordinates when they woke him up for breakfast around 8am. The officer said that he had just woken Davis up to tell him that some senior officers, transferred from other jails for the special duty, had brought him breakfast, but he flew into a rage. Senior officials tried to calm him down. But, instead of cooling down, Davis shouted in reply: “You uncivilised fools don’t even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?”

On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: “I am saying you should go now, bastard.” The officer said that though the senior officers could understand what Davis was saying, they asked Awan, who tried to downplay it, saying: “Davis was using meaningless slang.”


Will Lahore jail charge ‘Raymond Davis’ with blasphemy|Islamabad Globe


careful now, or he might turn into The Hulk. The guy looks like he's been abusing anabolic steroids. And he hasn't had a dose in almost a month, that could explain his fits of rage.
 
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careful now, or he might turn into The Hulk. The guy looks like he's been abusing anabolic steroids. And he hasn't had a dose in almost a month, that could explain his fits of rage.

This and other inflamatory remarks here today are false on their face and just more audience trying to "try" Mr. Davis on this otherwise good PDF site.

I ask the Administrators/Moderators of this site to remove such inflamatory and untrue postings here today. Thank you.
 
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This and other inflamatory remarks here today are false on their face and just more audience trying to "try" Mr. Davis on this otherwise good PDF site.

I ask the Administrators/Moderators of this site to remove such inflamatory and untrue postings here today. Thank you.

Oh please. Spare us this nonsense.

If any mod decides to delete that post then i will quit this forum. , Since they decided to leave your post where you defamed a dead innocent woman.
 
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