Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[American Eagle]

Perhaps some writers/readers on this good PDF site might want to check out the latest issue of THE ECONOMIST, Magazine, for dates of February 5-11, 2011. EGYPT RISES UP is on the cover with a Cairo demostrators photo on cover.

If you will go to the ASIA Section of the magazine, paper copy of the magazine see page 55. There you will find the following objectively written article of the current issue of the robbers vs. Raymond Allen.

Article is: BANYAN - Loss and riss management

sub-heading over a photo is: A new setback in the accident -prone alliance between Pakistan and America

For those who don't care to look up the article here are the first, a middle, and the last two paragraphs of this article:

FIRST PARAGRAPH: Conspiracies are popular in Pakistan, especially those involving America. When an American, Raymond Davis, was arrested for murder after the shooting two people on January 27th in traffic in the city of Lahore, many Pakistanis at once suspected the worse. The more that has leaded out about the case, the more their suspicions have seemed justified, and the more serious the damage to a "strategic partnership" vital to both countries. It will be mended - it always si, somehow - but not quicky, and not by Mr. Davis's early release.

MIDDLE OF ARTICLE RANDOM PARAGRAPH: The belief that America is callous about Pakistani lives and hostile towards Islam is the result of five decades of resentment. Pakistan has felt let down by America's failure to back it in its wars against INdia, and abandoned when, after helping Pakistan fule the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan in the 1980s, America turned its attention elsewhere. America's recent courtship of Kindai and the favours it has bestowed on it have renewed Pakistanis' sense of betrayal. Teligious parties depicted the fist Gulf war and the invasion of Iraq as attacks on Islam. Pakistani Pushtuns see the war in Afghanistan as being waged against ethnic, as well as religious, brothers.

LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS: With strategic partners like these...It also helps bankroll an army stretched by flood-relief work, continused vigilance on the eastern border with INdia and fighting with Islamist extremists in the tribal areas in the north-west. Some 1.2M people remain displaced by that conflict. An insurgency simmers in Balcohistan. Acrosss the country, religious and sectarian violence claims lives daily.

Yet America needs Pakistan as much. It continues to press he army to campaign in Northern Waziristan, one of the tribal areas, against militans using it as a base for operations in Afghanistan. And the worst fear haunting the West in Afghanistan is that the war will end not just in defeat in that benighted land of 30M people, but also in the radicalisation of Pakistan, with 190M and a nuclear arsenal said to be apporaching 100 warheads. Much as they dislike it, America and Pakistan are stuck with each other.

Let me be clear that I do not endorse some of the above articles opinions and views, but am opened minded enough not to fear posting public articles which I partially agree with, and which I likewise partially disagree with.

As an aside, if you will do a search on the Internet vesion of THE ECONOMIST MAGAZINE using my name, which I don't mind giving out, GEORGE SINGLETON, Colonel, USAF, Retired, you will find a positive article about US helping Pakistan at the time of the last great flood in the NW part of Pakistan wherein the US provided a great deal of help using our overseas in place in Aghanistan and Iraq armed forces, tents, and related equipment, particularly clean water processing equipment. The US has then, and again currently, now been doing the same and operates several free medical clinics manned by our military doctors and nurses to help any and all the people of the latest flooding there.

My mention of water processing equipment is especially critical to health and well being of flood ravaged parts of Pakistan, down country, where cholera is already a problem which the Government of Pakistan in and of itself seems unable to handle on a solo basis.

I wouldn't as a rational American citizen ever accuse our President, our Secretary of State, nor our US Ambassador to Pakistan of lying about anything under discussion in this PDF Thread. You can harbor for your own personal reasons bitterness and not trust anybody you choose not to trust, but I certainly disagree with you...but the above citation is part of the formal factual point of view of America as just laid out by me from anothers posting herein of Article 31. Article 31 is the specific Article that applies to the Davis scenario, via our US Department of State, to the Government of Pakistan and to the Pakistani Foreign Office within the GOP.

Your very bold assertions are your business, but have no basis in fact regarding the citation of what International Law says as regards the Davis scenario.

 

[Thomas]

He dosnt have an immunity, Counslate staff can get away with minor crimes But Murdering two innocent people out of cold blood cannot simply be let go under the blanket of slightest of immunity whatsoever....!

Which highlights the crux of the problem. the U.S. views the two as robbers and most Pakistani's do not. Despite the evidence collected from them.

 

[Omar1984]

Which highlights the crux of the problem. the U.S. views the two as robbers and most Pakistani's do not. Despite the evidence collected from them.

And how was the American acting in self defence when its proven that the two Pakistanis didnt even have bullets in their guns and were shot in their backs by the American while trying to flee.

 

[Omar1984]

 

[American Eagle]

I repeat what I wrote earlier today. I respect and believe what our US President, our US Secretary of State, and our US Ambassasdor have said that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity. This fact is borne out as in agreed to by the Pakistani Foreign Officer letter to the Pakistani Interior Minister who in turn one presumes will share this information with Mr. Davis and with the Pakistani court involved.

It may be fun for some to fantasize about evil scenarios but there are crimes attempted all over the world where the robbers sometimes end up being killed by the person put upon resisting their robbery attempt. This is a clear cut case of such an example, if anyone will focus on the findings on the first Paksitani Police Report.

The definition of a robber is to be found with stolen goods on your person or in your possession. This is and was the case of both failed robbers who took on Mr. Davis.

It serves no useful purpose to get into more details, some of which are very suspect to try to railroad Mr. Davis, so I will go no further.

The only thing that matters now, initially, is the fact that the FO now admits in writing that Mr. Davis has Diplomatic Immunity, 100% immunity, as do all overseas US State Dept. employees of all sorts and types.

 

[Thomas]

And how was the American acting in self defence when its proven that the two Pakistanis didnt even have bullets in their guns and were shot in their backs by the American while trying to flee.

if someone points a gun at a policeman does that policeman have a right to assume his life is in danger? or does he need to wait to see if the gun has a round chambered or for that matter wait till they fire at him? and if the guns are automatics how exactly are you going to determine that?

they wouldn't be the first robbers to use guns even if they had no intention of using them. Most people would simply give them what they wanted assuming the guns were loaded and chambered. Thier problem was they chose the wrong target to rob. They probably figured they had a nice target based on the vehicle he was driving.

As far as the bullet wounds what took place wasn't some long drawn out situation. everything happened in a matter of seconds. Davis was threatened he started to fire striking both assialants with 4 rounds each. it doesn't matter if they started to retreat after the shooting started. In the same situation I would have continued to shoot till I felt that each one was no longer a threat. Which means they are on the ground and no longer moving.

What I would like to know is why People continue to ignore all the money, cell phones, purses, and satchel they had on them? Originally it was claimed by the families that thr pistols were legally registered. Then we find out they were illegal weapons and the family was not telling the truth. Yet everyone chooses to ignore this since it would lend credence to them being robbers. The police in the beginning said that the two were most likely robbers. Then suddenly that changes once the politics (both national and provincial) and emotions start go into full gear.

 

[Developereo]

What's in that cell phone?

The two alleged robbers were found with five cell phones, presumably stolen. They approached Davis, again presumably demanding his cell phone and he refused, rather forcefully. Now the US wants Davis and his belongings, includnig the cellphone, returned to US custory.

We already know his cell phone had some 'unusual' photos, and he called some rather interesting numbers in Waziristan.

What else is on that cell phone?

Why does the US want that phone so badly?

 

[Awesome]

Raymond Davis case is starting off right now... The first thing they'll be hearing is the immunity petitions from the US embassy and then the petitions for the murder charges, fake identity charges. I hope the FO doesn't eff this up.

 

[CardSharp]

This statement was a civil reponse to prior posters who used curse words openly on and in this good forum.

Please consider objectivity in that I gave the answer which does represent many Westerners view on this topic. It is civil, especially in the face of personall denigrated and cussed at in this forum...and I have never and will never respond in kind. My response was civil, poplite, and factual. Why would good people who don't know or care about the facts regarding Diplomat Immunity be allowed to continully post curse word statements when the focus is Diplomatic Immunity but they seem to want to try the case here on the Internete and some even call for Mr. Davis to be lynched forthwith?

I do request you understand my tone is and will continue to be civil. I am dealing with International Law which are a fact based disucssion not random shots uncalled for as I am receiving here.

Thanks.

I'm sorry but in my part of the world if you said “You uncivilised fools don’t even make good servants.”, you get called what I called him.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders

The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death

I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well

Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan

 

[Areesh]

WASHINGTON: Some muscular coercion, a muffled apology, and an additional few hundred million dollars in aid appears to have paved way for a momentary resolution between United States and Pakistan of the Raymond Davis affair that is even now threatening to derail ties between the mutually mistrustful allies.

The modalities of how Davis, the "Diplomat," will be freed are being worked out.

The big question haunting Washington and Islamabad is whether the outburst will assume the proportions of the upheaval in Tunisia and Egypt and consume the weak government in Islamabad, bringing to power Islamist forces and jeopardizing US operations in Afghanistan. The US is expected to argue its case for Davis' immunity and release at a hearing Thursday at Lahore HC after the Pakistani government formally indicated that it had determined he enjoyed immunity.

The Pakistani softening came after US President Barack Obama and senator John Kerry played the good cop-bad cop routine. In a White House press conference, Obama left no doubt that the US will use every instrument of power and pressure to force Islamabad to release Davis, who he described as "our diplomat in Pakistan."

Davis all set to walk free as US prez pulls strings

 

[jahangeer yousaf]

I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders

The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death

I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well

Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan

you still in a doubt that we are free nation ........ come on come outta illusion ....... we may have got freedom physically but mentally we are slave ......

 

[jahangeer yousaf]

I think if this guy gets away that truely means that the freedom that we call freedom is just an illusion but we are still slaves to outsiders

The guy should be punished , and he should spend time in life in prison or hanged till death

I think Pakistan will errupt in iran like revolution if this guy gets away clean handed as for US embassy , well ehem that will be moved back as well

Diplomats don't run , around as Spies killing citizens of Pakistan

for instance look at your avatar no offence ..........

 

[CardSharp]

if someone points a gun at a policeman does that policeman have a right to assume his life is in danger? or does he need to wait to see if the gun has a round chambered or for that matter wait till they fire at him? and if the guns are automatics how exactly are you going to determine that?

they wouldn't be the first robbers to use guns even if they had no intention of using them. Most people would simply give them what they wanted assuming the guns were loaded and chambered. Thier problem was they chose the wrong target to rob. They probably figured they had a nice target based on the vehicle he was driving.

As far as the bullet wounds what took place wasn't some long drawn out situation. everything happened in a matter of seconds. Davis was threatened he started to fire striking both assialants with 4 rounds each. it doesn't matter if they started to retreat after the shooting started. In the same situation I would have continued to shoot till I felt that each one was no longer a threat. Which means they are on the ground and no longer moving.

What I would like to know is why People continue to ignore all the money, cell phones, purses, and satchel they had on them? Originally it was claimed by the families that thr pistols were legally registered. Then we find out they were illegal weapons and the family was not telling the truth. Yet everyone chooses to ignore this since it would lend credence to them being robbers. The police in the beginning said that the two were most likely robbers. Then suddenly that changes once the politics (both national and provincial) and emotions start go into full gear.

Sorry but that's not what's important here. What is important is that the physical evidence doesn't match his testimony. That alone would make most investigators stateside suspicious of his story.

Mr Davis's claim that one of the motorbike riders had approached his car window, cocked his gun and pointed it at him.

And tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazine of the men's gun, not the chamber.

BBC News - US man Raymond Davis shot Pakistan pair 'in cold blood'

 

[Bang Galore]

This is a patently false argument - if those wanting the GoP to take a hard line position on the Davis issue were not present in significant numbers in Pakistan, the GoP would not be in the position it is now, and would have released Davis without being concerned about any potential political fallout.

The fact that the PPP is trying to find a way to satisfy both the US Government and the Pakistani electorate is indicative of the fact that the sentiments around the Davis case, that you see reflected on this forum by many overseas Pakistanis, are shared by most Pakistanis resident in Pakistan.

Secondly, unless these 'overseas Pakistanis' have no immediate family in Pakistan, any thing that happens in Pakistan stands to have a very strong impact on them through the impact on their immediate families. Our demographic is primarily a younger one - that usually means that the overseas Pakistanis on this forum have parents, siblings and other relatives in Pakistan, and it is rather callous to argue that they care nothing for what happens to their siblings or parents.

This canard of 'overseas Pakistanis' pops up frequently in discussions pushing nationalist Pakistani positions, usually pushed by Indians, and in the future I would appreciate it if this canard is left out of discussions, since all it does is attempt to hijack the discussion away from the actual topic. Focus on the arguments being made, not on who is making them or what their socio-economic background or resident status is.

I was referring to extreme positions taken by some Pakistanis who live in the west. It was not necessarily referring only to this particular subject but did include it. It was made in context of some posts made by other members.

The argument is as follows. Some have argued here that Pakistan must be willing to burn bridges with the U.S. and that the economic & other costs, if any of such action is somehow worth it. My point was that such comments opens a non resident Pakistani to the charge of being duplicitous since such sacrifices are not shared directly by them. Some(NRP'S) here who take extraordinarily extreme positions should be asked why they don't walk the talk & stand by their convictions. This is true on this subject as well as on those advocating more stringent religious laws.

I have made no comment on the merits of this particular case except to suggest very early on this thread that Pakistan must not rush headlong into a unwinnable battle which in the end would only serve to exacerbate internal fissures. Have stayed out of this argument since. I have no issues with the merit of the positions taken by many Pakistanis(you included) on this case except for the practicality of such a position.

Btw, your last comment on focusing on the argument & not on the person making them would have carried more weight if you hadn't said this.

This canard of 'overseas Pakistanis' pops up frequently in discussions pushing nationalist Pakistani positions, usually pushed by Indians,