Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry

[Khan vilatey]

If you can go 2018 Zuhai airshow thread in China defense section, there is lots pics and specs of KLJ-7A that states its liquid cooled AESA

Two things
1) I meant TRM transmit receive modules in my original post. A lot of these can get hot hence the liquid cooling. There are miniaturization techniques where air cooling can be used. As I said I have some expertise in antenna design. Admittedly not recent.

2) Klj7a is liquid cooled but I believe an air cooled radar from the same institute was developed. I do not believe that a liquid cooled aesa radar like the klj7a would fit in block 2 jf-17s. This would mean we would need different solutions for this problem.

kv

 

[Ultima Thule]

Two things
1) I meant TRM transmit receive modules in my original post. A lot of these can get hot hence the liquid cooling. There are miniaturization techniques where air cooling can be used. As I said I have some expertise in antenna design. Admittedly not recent.

2) Klj7a is liquid cooled but I believe an air cooled radar from the same institute was developed. I do not believe that a liquid cooled aesa radar like the klj7a would fit in block 2 jf-17s. This would mean we would need different solutions for this problem.

kv

are you talking about LFK is being design by same institute??? and last PAF is currently thinking to upgrades it block-1/2 with AESA, the answer is NOBODY KNOWS THAT PAF INTENDED TO UPGRADES BLOCK-1/2 WITH AESA

 

[Khan vilatey]

are you talking about LFK is being design by same institute??? and last PAF is currently thinking to upgrades it block-1/2 with AESA, the answer is NOBODY KNOWS THAT PAF INTENDED TO UPGRADES BLOCK-1/2 WITH AESA

There are lot of posts on this thread which suggest upgrades to JF-17 block 2 with AESA radars. Not sure about block 1.

it would make little sense if block 2 is not given upgrades to avionics in the next 3 years.

the bigger question is if we can make structural changes to block 1 to accommodate the bigger Engine and avionics including AESA radar as part of an MLU upgrade? This would be a natural step.

kv

 

[Ultima Thule]

There are lot of posts on this thread which suggest upgrades to JF-17 block 2 with AESA radars. Not sure about block 1.

it would make little sense if block 2 is not given upgrades to avionics in the next 3 years.

the bigger question is if we can make structural changes to block 1 to accommodate the bigger Engine and avionics including AESA radar as part of an MLU upgrade? This would be a natural step.

kv

With current weak economic conditions of our country the upgrades of block-1 and 2 are not feasible its might be possible when our economy improves might be few years ahead our first priority is to induct as many block-3 as much we can

 

[The Eagle]

it worries me the kind of over confidence we have,

That is only for the internet otherwise, men in uniform do know their business.

What J-10 might bring to the table is extra hardpoints, more payload capacity, longer loiter time and AESA after all it's a medium weight fighter.

Now this is sort of over confidence given the fact that Block-III will be enough in this category and can serve far better as per doctrine and our need and requirement hence, input by the PAF at large.

 

[Khan vilatey]

With current weak economic conditions of our country the upgrades of block-1 and 2 are not feasible its might be possible when our economy improves might be few years ahead our first priority is to induct as many block-3 as much we can

We are spending money to overhaul block 1 aircraft any way. As it costs much less to upgrade, I would be super surprised if we don’t go the upgrade route on top of the block 3.

logically speaking upgrading the block 1 to MLU standards with an avionics, radar and aerial refueling would be a good option. The million dollar question would be can we upgrade the engines so we can standardize on one or two engine types for the fleet.

for my knowledge can someone please confirm if block 1 and 2 use the same version of the engine?

kv

 

[Ultima Thule]

We are spending money to overhaul block 1 aircraft any way. As it costs much less to upgrade, I would be super surprised if we don’t go the upgrade route on top of the block 3.

logically speaking upgrading the block 1 to MLU standards with an avionics, radar and aerial refueling would be a good option. The million dollar question would be can we upgrade the engines so we can standardize on one or two engine types for the fleet.

for my knowledge can someone please confirm if block 1 and 2 use the same version of the engine?

kv

Yes block1/2 uses same engine and overhauling is the cheap things but upgrades are not that simple if you want to have a AESA then you have to modify radomes ( nose cone) and internal space for new avionics and AESA

 

[Khan vilatey]

Yes block1/2 uses same engine and overhauling is the cheap things but upgrades are not that simple if you want to have a AESA then you have to modify radomes ( nose cone) and internal space for new avionics and AESA

yes I agree, but it is about the 1/3 the cost of new jets. If an upgrade like this is taken up most of our fleet could be upgraded to the block 3 standards on the cheap

so logically the options would be

1) create a new radar cone with some changes to allow for a bigger radar, IRST pod, aerial refueling and possibly cockpit upgrades.

2) even more re design including reinforcing the wings, upgrades to the tail and possibly expansion of the engine to accommodate the rd93 m? Engine.

I have always heard the good air marshal say that if-17 is a block build aircraft

 

[Ultima Thule]

yes I agree, but it is about the 1/3 the cost of new jets. If an upgrade like this is taken up most of our fleet could be upgraded to the block 3 standards on the cheap

so logically the options would be

1) create a new radar cone with some changes to allow for a bigger radar, IRST pod, aerial refueling and possibly cockpit upgrades.

2) even more re design including reinforcing the wings, upgrades to the tail and possibly expansion of the engine to accommodate the rd93 m? Engine.

I have always heard the good air marshal say that if-17 is a block build aircraft

Your 1 point is achievable 2nd point is not because you suggests so many airframe/internal modifications that it could not be any more JFT because its will become structurally/mechanically different from standard JFT and Will become jf19 or something

 

[Khan vilatey]

Your 1 point is achievable 2nd point is not because you suggests so many airframe/internal modifications that it could not be any more JFT because its will become structurally/mechanically different from standard JFT and Will become jf19 or something

well I am a great fan of the new quadruple fly by wire system in all axis but one can not get all their dreams

I would like to thank you, it was very informative speaking with you.
Kv

 

[Shreyas Karambelkar]

Being a PAF specific aircraft it takes into account the fact that most IAF FoBs are within 250 miles. JFT range is adequate for what PAF needs it for. To suplement any lack we have IFR which is an advantage
The real advantage and one where you guys are constantly ignoring the JFT ALTHOUGH you have pointed it out, is the fact that it is our AC. We can upgrade it and build it in numbers. A 250million aircraft will become a white elephant and a loss of a couple will create more problems for IAF. People are talking about acquiring more Rafales but the cost factor will go against it. IAF has missed a huge trick in not inducting the Tejas in the late 90s and develop it block wise. It would have given you the economy of scales which you needed at a price you could afford. The other trick was to take over the assembly line of the M2Ks and work on it with a better engine. Now when you go on to induct the Tejas it is 20yrs too late and IAF will never have the confidence to deploy it in numbers.
A

The Jf-17 might have enough range only when carrying 2* BVR and 2* CCM missiles same applies to tejas. Furthermore,Air to ground munitions are way heavier than that of A2A missiles and create a lot of drag(My comment was in that context). Also, it doesn't matter whether tejas took 20 years or not the program has been a valuable learning in terms aeronautical research and development,the main Hick-up was the engine part particularly the kaveri which might get matured enough to get fielded in future programs such as AMCA.

Secondly,the rafale aint going to be a white elephant but a valuable asset to the IAF and possibly to navy in future.Regardless,of it's costs the fighter might replace most of the strike aircrafts of the IAF or atleast complement to Jaguars which are on their last legs.

 

[Shreyas Karambelkar]

PAF certainly has a lot of faith in this aircraft though as it already has an air-to-air kill, and was used well as part of Operation Swift Retort last year. It has its deficiencies, but supplementing other aircraft like the F-16's is when it really shines.

The PAF surely trusts the aircraft which is a good thing for further development..

 

[blain2]

Very comprehensive ? This was a milquetoast analysis.

He didn't mention the SPECTRA EW suite which makes the Rafale so dangerous, no mention of the stand off weapons and other munitions either.

Also, there will be a LOT more than 36 by the end of it.

He also dismissed the J-10 as some sort of transitory temporary system for the PLAAF..

and the J-20s will not be for export, PAF will get the J-31.

He does not need to mention SPECTRA. Dassault's marketing and Indian fanship talk it up as if it is something "revolutionary", but it isn't. I can guarantee that the systems that are available to the PAF on the F-16s and what we will be employing on the JF-17 blk3 and retrofitting on the older blocks will allow PAF a very potent capability in the envisaged environment whether the IAF brings the Rafale or the Su-30MKI.

What is lost on many here is that Pakistan Air Force cannot be deterred by Rafales just like it was not deterred by the MKIs. We will maintain our deterrence against India through not one, but multiple options to inflict damage. This is something that neither 36 nor 126 Rafales can address. By the time India inducts S-400, Pakistan will have counter-measures in place. Keep in mind that we literally ate grass to get what we needed to in the past. There is just no way that Pakistan will *ever* let India erode the conventional deterrence. Even if India goes for F-35s, Pakistan will counter.

As such, India can buy not 36, but 126 Rafales however the situation will not change for the PAF because by the time India does that, Pakistan's entire fleet will be comprised of only 2 platforms i.e. F-16 and JF-17s with a very potent set of capabilities in all roles. We don't need an expeditionary Air Force as such we can do without twin-engines, very long endurance, and over-priced French nice-to-haves.

The shiny kit syndrome aside that very many are afflicted with here and elsewhere, when it comes to "employment", these two platforms of the PAF will prove equal to the task.

 

[truthfollower]

Interesting part is the J-20 bit, which is still evolving and has not taken a final shape, maybe from PAFs point of view so Project Azm could have fair amount of technical input and technology from development team of J-20 also.

why we pakistanis think that chinese will provide all the data free without any cost? They have spent years and years and i dont know how much money

 

[ziaulislam]

To be frank, if the PAF had gotten the Rafale instead of India, there'd be a dozen threads saying, "how the Rafale gives the PAF the edge..." etc.

We should change our mindset. By downplaying India's moves, we are giving our government and military decision-makers a pass. No more passes.

If we're too broke to afford new weapons, we need to then take those not doing their job (of growing the economy) accountable.

Accountibility comes after acceptance

We dont even accept that two parties bankrupted pakistan not once but several times

Even today central punjab and sindh overwhelming support these people including super educated highly talented people .. Pml n & ppp took almost twice as much as votes as pti in 2018.. When country was bankrupted to a level never seen before...

Rafale is going to give india an edge by 2025.. no doubt about it.. The techinical superority we gained in 2010 (b52-aim120c combo) will move back to IAF . only counters are a full package f16b70/aim120d or highly intergated block 3 in large numbers or the J31 if available