Rafale far more superior compared to China's 4th and 5th generation fighters: Air Marshal Nambiar

[HariPrasad]

Any missile that has its own radar seeker can engage fighter aircraft and are certainly not "useless". The PL-X in question also has an IR seeker for higher kill probability.

Keep in mind that the Meteor is also an active radar guided missile, but unlike the PL-XX, does not have an additional possible IR sensor. You need to apply logical consistency here.

The Chinese have been using ramjet-powered missiles since the 1980s; they have far more experience in this field than India does.

Fine then Chinese missile is better than meteor. Best luck.

 

[serenity]

Guys there are far more to a missile's performance than just seeker and engine. Resistance to jamming is a big deal. Dual seeker in newer and next generation Chinese missiles is just natural evolution as everyone else will decidde whether it is worth it or not and apply. Thales MBDA and Raytheon and all the others can also do this so no Chinese missile are not better than other's but it is also not accurate to say Chinese missiles are worse. We don't know the details and we can each think whatever to help us sleep better if one person wants to feel sure about something he has absolutely no real idea in.

The real ability is combination of all these things and then consider size and weight. All designs have trade-offs and compromise because no huge breakthrough yet in materials or electronics. So each separate type just applies all the latest techologies and abilities into a unique job and strengths and weaknesses. Until new breakthrough in software, computing, and electronics management, and then breakthrough in new engine and fuel combustion management, combined with better materials, then we can say one missile is 100% definitely better than all others in overall on paper way. But that missile will take a longer time to assemble and cost many many times more. So $500 AK-47 shooting standard 7.62 is still more useful than $5000 FN rifles shooting higher quality ammunition in 90% of time during war. Sometimes in weapons, money, resources and time is far more important factor many of us don't consider because it is not exciting new and interesting. Russia feels threatened by NATO and reintroduced the thousands of T-72 not modernised back into reserve. This adds a lot of value. Only special groups need to use top technology to do specialised jobs. Rest is about who has more and who can make more quicker. But rest assured. Chinese programs for air to air missiles are VERY active. Active in development of different ideas and active in spying and looking at where other's are heading in. Take good parts and ideas as they wish. Better to be called thief and everyone spies and takes good ideas, than to be killed because you didn't take good ideas to feel "better". Most countries even can see and understand good ideas but lack tools to copy it even when they want to. We will see other FGF programs from Korea, Turkey, and India will look just like F-22 and see how successfully they can "copy" it in many years time.

 

[HariPrasad]

Hmm I don't think it's accurate to say China does not have Meteor level capability. Some accurate sources say already much longer range and kinematic performance achieved on a few missiles in testing and one is already more or less fielded. Not yet shown but based off PL-15 concept of two stage engine. Akash looks like good SAM and very sophisticated because using solid fuel? for boost and then ramjet. This is SAM along with Astra (European one?) and S-400. India does have very capable on paper air defense like Russia and China. China has decided on much cheaper and more numbers in HQ-9 types just solid fuel. It's long range SAMs are also ready believe me but they are not designed for conventional targets. Mostly trying to field BMD like others but honestly that's very useless because it's preparing for end of world scenario so very little point.

On missiles. Meteor is excellent no doubt best in world at the moment. But most airforces who are getting it will not receive it in numbers for a few years. Indian Rafale will be in IAF service in a few years with Meteor. PLAAF has PL-21 and PL-xx and PL-15 for meantime. There are several ramjet powered two stage versions but most are a bit inaccurate for maneuvrable fighters and best against AWACs and tanker targets. This is acceptable for PLAAF for now but there is so much pressure from government to get next generation of missiles in for J-20 bays and for fighter drones. PLAAF is looking into more reliance on drones to carry out front line tasks with J-20s and long reach fighters like J-16 and J-11s to launch attacks on AWACs and tankers using PL-XX and PL-21.

IAF Rafale of course add a lot of capability but I think (only opinion and no sources) that the real benefit is to have opportunities to learn from Dassault and SNECMA and maybe introduce certain technologies into AMCA particularly in avionics. I have no idea on Chinese EW capability so won't say anything for sure but I don't think PLAAF ever said Rafale is better than everything PLAAF has. They don't know Rafale and they never say concrete things like this. I also don't think PLAAF EW capability is off. In fact the reliable guys who have predicted J-10, J-20, WS-10, TVC etc months and years before shown, also say China's strongest area is electronics and software now with weakest area being materials and manufacturing technology. This is two years ago or so. I think manufacturing is improved a lot and materials too but materials for engine is slow because there is no shortcut and lot's of testing trial and error. Single crystal blades now conquered but there are many other little areas that need improvement for reliability and thermodynamic efficiency in energy dissipation and management of heat. Using fuel is part of that equation and WS-15 keeps getting reworked because new discovery are forced to be worked into program. They will keep delaying this because modifying it after finishing will be too much headache and PLAAF is at the moment okay with just using up-thrusted WS-10 for J-20. It's mission in training has developed to be medium range sniper of important targets. Only when WS-15 comes, it will be able to do zoom in and out quickly type closer range killer to harass important targets and even fighters but will have to wait for WS-15 after 2022 or so. TVC is just experiment and PLAAF has not finalised decision to use it at all. Show is just for face at Zhuhai but program is not near final stages and decision not made.

Rafale has good EW system against older SAM systems. Meteor missile is excellent but not miracle. It adds capability on top of good missilies like AIM 120D and adds ramjet, longer reach, active seeker with very good seeker head AESA and it has better energy management at final stage. Most older generation missiles from 120C to D and PL-12 latest versions don't have these capabilities. Newer Chinese missiles do. Ballistic version shown years ago was just for AWACs and large targets like Phoenix missile in past. Not as good as Meteor for fighters. But there are several that are just like Meteor on paper. Details I don't know.

Overall, PLAAF mood is very positive and excited about some promising programs. Indian intelligence knows better than internet discussions and knows quite well today what to expect in PLAAF. There are plenty of leaks and guys selling information to everyone. All others are keeping quiet but also receive many false information. Some corrupt top management guys leaking info but they are all very confident there will be no war at all because deterrence is strong enough against USA. The politicians are only worried about economic ruin today. Military is just ongoing development and depends on finance. Trade route and access to energy is top concern. Not military. IAF wants cooperation and technology transfer with expensive purchase from France because they know France is politically going to be neutral with India no matter what. USA is not 100% reliable with India even as allies. Russia Su-57 disappoint IAF and decision I don't think was made out of corruption. Definitely FGFA stopped for now because Russia did not offer technology transfer and Su-57 was not fulfill expectations. Rafale doesn't have internal bays and SPECTRA is not going to be useful against AESA. People can believe whatever. The huge push from PLAAF for AESA and even skipping PESA is mostly the resistance to all types of EW because frequency is flexible and software is powerful enough to use narrow AI for optimizing radar emission. AESA is so much better than old generation PLAAF inducted first generations of Chinese AESA immediately and skipped J-10B after only one batch production because it uses a now obsolete PESA system. They are all first generation when fielded but now upgrades have all been installed on J-10C and J-16. USAF all use AESA on latest models of legacy fighters too. They know very well this is only radar for 21st century before photonics and quantum types are ready for fighters. Chinese AESA has only one type out of many many kinds that use air cooled. All J-10C, J-16, and J-20 use more complex systems. Air cooled version is new and offer simpler construction and heat management because the unit is custom developed to suit JF-17 because it doesn't require heavy cooling like PLAAF fighters, it can afford to be cheaper this way and because JF-17 future AESA will not consume as much power or be as powerful and large to require any more cooling, the engineers optimized the design to make it simpler and cheaper to acquire for inexpensive light fighters.

It will be in India's interest to invest in own industry and keep improving it. Tejas is start. AMCA will be their next step. Radar and avionics is another side and with partner or cooperation and technology trade, it will be easier faster and cheaper. We will see in coming years how Indian politicians manage this and what path they choose. I don't know that much about IAF or equipment so mostly comment on PLAAF and Chinese stuff that is already well known by reliable circles so maybe here we can share the information to make a accurate picture.



PL-21 which is the long thin missile on J-16 picture shown years ago is not for fighter. It is too inaccurate and not end stage agile enough for modern fighter. It is purely developed only for large slow targets. It has jam resistance focus and no focus on kinematics. It's purpose is to get through EW protection of big important planes and hit them using only ballistic trajectory. Very useless against fighters. There are several other programs for fighters. One looks like Meteor with ramjet inlets. Others look very different. PLAAF will be testing to see their performance soon. PL-15 they love at the moment. PL-15 just for J-20 is developed to fit 6 inside bays. They are more complicated and lesser range than PL-15. Chinese boards will reveal in several months but mostly already known. Leakers already told everyone in subtle ways. Right now there's a lot of false information intentionally leaked though. Laser submarine detection and WS-15 already installed all false information I think even though some comes from previously very reliable sources.

By the time Meteor is widely used in Asia from IAF, PLAAF will have several equivalents and aim for entirely novel way of using UAVs. Most money and engineers used in this new field. 6th generation program has been active since 2012 not long after J-20 almost finalised. There is conflict in how to use UAV and what direction to go for 6th generation. At the moment too many technology barriers for what PLAAF wants in both paths so more solid decision will only be made when these technology barriers are overcomed and they will only show some leaks when program is near complete. So far it is combination UAV and pilot fighter or pure UAV. The technology for 100% EW resistance using quantum based communication is still testing but initial stages proven to work last year. Even those experiments communicating with satellites Micius and submarines conducted. But full remote control is not yet guaranteed to be jam and hack proof. USA military has ability to hack and directly disrupt a lot of military equipment that uses their chips and networking methods. Datalinks and communication disruption is easy for them. China has really rushed and pushed to overcome this recently because they suspect this even though USA hides this ability. Secret military sector knows information about their competitors so much further than over here. We only see the toys as leaks years after they finish playing with them. Lesser guys work on finalising stages with only some management from top guys.

I disagree with something but seem to be a highly knowledgeable guy in the area. Do you have military background?

 

[serenity]

I disagree with something but seem to be a highly knowledgeable guy in the area. Do you have military background?

That's fine. I don't know everything written for certain especially to do with French, Western, and Indian equipment. All of that is personal opinion and speculation from many many years of observation and military enthusiasm. And even the Chinese stuff I know, there is some people spreading false information on some cases to hide very advanced abilities and on other areas to pretend to have very advanced abilities to mislead and misdirect from real things. I have Chinese board leaks for one major source. Most trusted leakers have a history of accurate supplied information that confirms with eventual official disclosed stuff and confirms with other sources. Mostly friends and friends of friends in CAS divisions and what they have heard. The information they share and chat about is not as sensitive and they know public will not care or will doubt around the world. The real danger is what other intelligence agencies know.

Word keeps spreading around China in dinner table and especially after many beers. But my background is science and working field in engineering but not military related. Although we have developed complexes used for military and nuclear reinforcement for invasion and attack from Taiwan and USA in provinces near Taiwan strait because government fears artillery and rocket bombardment and USA navy and airforce taking out these regions if a large war happens. Reinforcement for government buildings and shelters under parking spaces underground. I don't want to give more but all the stuff I wrote are quite common already so no trouble and people can choose to believe whatever they want. Also no harm is sharing some info that I am quite convinced is accurate and not too sensitive at all and nothing that other intelligence agencies already don't know long time ago.

 

[HariPrasad]

Awesome. Very nice talking to you. Keep posting. Your sort of writing is very rare on troll forum like this.

 

[serenity]

For this forum topic. I think to bring it back to Rafale. One test to see if Rafale in IAF is definitely a large threat to PLAAF is to see how PLAAF reacts and if China tries to put on France any pressure for limiting technology sharing and limiting what IAF gets as package. If China does this, it may be a bit more clear but not 100% reliable way to tell what PLAAF think of Rafale. Maybe if we hear solid news of Chinese spying on Dassault and getting sensitive info, then we will also know a bit better BUT this isn't very accurate. And to be honest. Chinese programs is just like Soviet and USA spying programs. It tries to learn everything and anything it can. There's no accurate info and sensitive stuff they don't want to know and won't try to take somehow. I think India is same and everyone else interested in defending their interests.

Of course we know Rafale + Meteor and Thales subsystems like EW and radar and IRST and all the software will add a lot of learning opportunities. How India discusses and finalises the final deal will determine how much benefit it can get from it. I have not followed the latest updates but think the old disagreements are settled and now it's all finalised. The consequence of this deal and how much Rafale helps will only become visible to us many many years later. Everything else is unsure and just speculation about these things. Still it's fun to have imagination about it. Just don't believe imagination to be 100% real even if we are quite sure. I can say this. I have noticed Chinese discussion and military watchers respect and think highly of Rafale much more than F-15 and Typhoon. They think it is most electronically capable of all 4th generation fighters and have more modern sensors like radar which Typhoon still isn't using.

And honestly. Thank you for being respectable and sensible as well. This forum can get ridiculous from everyone very quickly. Very intense hate sometimes which is sad because we all need to coexist but we think each other are threatening when this does not need to be always the case. Believe me, Chinese are more worried about suspicious of USA than anyone else today and most of us do not think of Indians as our enemy. Only nationalists do because of recent happenings. This hopefully will change so both large nations develop to become wealthy and peaceful with each other and overtake the west which is both our ultimate goal. This way they can't bully and mistreat us anymore.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Fine then Chinese missile is better than meteor. Best luck.

and why do you think that is not equal to Meteor, you don't know the quality/reliability of Chinese Newest long range AAMs, you just have a false speculations/assumptions of yours, get out of your falsehood kid @HariPrasad

 

[Akasa]

Fine then Chinese missile is better than meteor. Best luck.

You seem to believe that you can define reality just by saying so.

PL-21 which is the long thin missile on J-16 picture shown years ago is not for fighter. It is too inaccurate and not end stage agile enough for modern fighter. It is purely developed only for large slow targets. It has jam resistance focus and no focus on kinematics. It's purpose is to get through EW protection of big important planes and hit them using only ballistic trajectory. Very useless against fighters. There are several other programs for fighters.

It's developed for large targets but can engage smaller & more agile ones. Its AESA radar seeker and IR sensors are indicators of this capability. Cost and dimensional/mass limitations will narrow its role within the PLAAF, but its sensors do suggest that engaging agile & small targets is definitely part of its mission repertoire.

P.S. I don't think it's called the PL-21 which is the Sino-Meteor equivalent; its name is still unknown.

One looks like Meteor with ramjet inlets. Others look very different. PLAAF will be testing to see their performance soon. PL-15 they love at the moment. PL-15 just for J-20 is developed to fit 6 inside bays. They are more complicated and lesser range than PL-15. Chinese boards will reveal in several months but mostly already known. Leakers already told everyone in subtle ways. Right now there's a lot of false information intentionally leaked though. Laser submarine detection and WS-15 already installed all false information I think even though some comes from previously very reliable sources.

From what I've read, the PLAAF is pursuing a handful of BVRAAMs: PL-12, PL-21 (unknown if this is still being developed), PL-15, PL-20 (for internal carriage), and the PL-XX seen on the J-16. All of them, save the PL-20, have been confirmed test-fired. Of course, filtering the BS from the real stuff takes time, but this is what the consensus is at.

By the time Meteor is widely used in Asia from IAF, PLAAF will have several equivalents and aim for entirely novel way of using UAVs. Most money and engineers used in this new field. 6th generation program has been active since 2012 not long after J-20 almost finalised. There is conflict in how to use UAV and what direction to go for 6th generation. At the moment too many technology barriers for what PLAAF wants in both paths so more solid decision will only be made when these technology barriers are overcomed and they will only show some leaks when program is near complete. So far it is combination UAV and pilot fighter or pure UAV. The technology for 100% EW resistance using quantum based communication is still testing but initial stages proven to work last year. Even those experiments communicating with satellites Micius and submarines conducted. But full remote control is not yet guaranteed to be jam and hack proof. USA military has ability to hack and directly disrupt a lot of military equipment that uses their chips and networking methods. Datalinks and communication disruption is easy for them. China has really rushed and pushed to overcome this recently because they suspect this even though USA hides this ability. Secret military sector knows information about their competitors so much further than over here. We only see the toys as leaks years after they finish playing with them. Lesser guys work on finalising stages with only some management from top guys.

Not sure what this has to do with my previous post, but the PLAAF's stealthy UCAV choice seems to be fairly set: there will be a high-speed UCAV like the Dark Sword to work in tandem with a subsonic counterpart like the Sharp Sword. I'm still of the belief that quantum communications and radars are more theoretical than practical at this point.

P.S. Do you have sources that the Chinese 6th generation fighter program started in 2012?

 

[serenity]

You seem to believe that you can define reality just by saying so.



It's developed for large targets but can engage smaller & more agile ones. Its AESA radar seeker and IR sensors are indicators of this capability. Cost and dimensional/mass limitations will narrow its role within the PLAAF, but its sensors do suggest that engaging agile & small targets is definitely part of its mission repertoire.

P.S. I don't think it's called the PL-21 which is the Sino-Meteor equivalent; its name is still unknown.



From what I've read, the PLAAF is pursuing a handful of BVRAAMs: PL-12, PL-21 (unknown if this is still being developed), PL-15, PL-20 (for internal carriage), and the PL-XX seen on the J-16. All of them, save the PL-20, have been confirmed test-fired. Of course, filtering the BS from the real stuff takes time, but this is what the consensus is at.



Not sure what this has to do with my previous post, but the PLAAF's stealthy UCAV choice seems to be fairly set: there will be a high-speed UCAV like the Dark Sword to work in tandem with a subsonic counterpart like the Sharp Sword. I'm still of the belief that quantum communications and radars are more theoretical than practical at this point.

P.S. Do you have sources that the Chinese 6th generation fighter program started in 2012?

I think you might be more right on the names of missiles PL-XX but yes quite a few different types in development and some more behind than others and some almost ready. 6th generation research for planning the concept started at the end of J-20 cycle. Definitely started by 2012 and perhaps even earlier. This is just theoritical stage and does not mean anything is really done. Just they started the program like F-22 program started in late 80s to replace F-15. Real work only started in 90s. Same for Chinese 6th generation project, the planning on concept whether to use UAV or combination and investigating what PLAAF strategy will be like for future. I have no idea what amount of solid work is complete at this stage but now it's end of 2018 so these guys already had about 6 years to think.

 

[Akasa]

I think you might be more right on the names of missiles PL-XX but yes quite a few different types in development and some more behind than others and some almost ready. 6th generation research for planning the concept started at the end of J-20 cycle. Definitely started by 2012 and perhaps even earlier. This is just theoritical stage and does not mean anything is really done. Just they started the program like F-22 program started in late 80s to replace F-15. Real work only started in 90s. Same for Chinese 6th generation project, the planning on concept whether to use UAV or combination and investigating what PLAAF strategy will be like for future. I have no idea what amount of solid work is complete at this stage but now it's end of 2018 so these guys already had about 6 years to think.

Where did you hear of the rumors that 6th generation is already under planning since 2012?

 

[serenity]

Where did you hear of the rumors that 6th generation is already under planning since 2012?

Not from online. Just conversation with people on J-20's follow up. This was even talked about online for some time around a year ago. No one cares if others want to think or believe if it's true because no important details are leaked. They didn't stop at J-20. J-20 development almost completely finished about 4 years ago. Teams separated and do research into new concepts after that. 2012 was when most details settled and early investigation for new shaped fighter started. Some Chinese forums discussed this back then but never provided any details. None of us outside know them but same people who talked about it discussing UAV's role in future.

 

[RPK]

See this video

 

[My-Analogous]

Rafael must be superior to any other fighter jet, It has to be, India bought it

Because of Rafael acquired by India all UFO stop visiting Earth because of fear, my friend.

 

[newb3e]

lols even superior than 7th gen alien tech now indians have it!

 

[艹艹艹]

Indian Military Intelligence Bureau have already arrested enough madarchods for robbing the Sensitive Technologies from Make in India projects.

Excellent stealth characteristics