Question about Ottoman rule in Eastern Europe

[Saho]

During the Islamic conquest, Islam have spread throughout the Middle East, North Africa, East/West Africa, West/South Asia and beyond. The Arabs largely contributed to the spread of Islam in those regions through trades and conquest.

When the Ottoman Turks took over the throne and establish their rule over the Muslim world, they conquered half of eastern Europe and most of their focus were always in Europe. Half of Eastern Europe were under the control of Ottoman empire for hundred of years, the Balkan was under their control for full 600 years.

Yet, Eastern Europe remained Christians, even though, they were under Muslim control for 600 years whereas most countries today who were ruled by the Arabs for hundreds of years are now mostly Muslims.

The only ethnic groups who became Muslims under the Ottomans were the Albanians/Kosovo, Bosnian and some other minor groups while the rest of the Slavic groups did not converted.

What are the causes of the Albanians being predominantly Muslim, while all the other countries in the Balkans/eastern Europe predominantly Christian?

 

[flamer84]

Because most Europeans were not sellouts to their faith ,prefering a life in misery than to trade their souls.

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

During the Islamic conquest, Islam have spread throughout the Middle East, North Africa, East/West Africa, West/South Asia and beyond. The Arabs largely contributed to the spread of Islam in those regions through trades and conquest.

When the Ottoman Turks took over the throne and establish their rule over the Muslim world, they conquered half of eastern Europe and most of their focus were always in Europe. Half of Eastern Europe were under the control of Ottoman empire for hundred of years, the Balkan was under their control for full 600 years.

Yet, Eastern Europe remained Christians, even though, they were under Muslim control for 600 years whereas most countries today who were ruled by the Arabs for hundreds of years are now mostly Muslims.

The only ethnic groups who became Muslims under the Ottomans were the Albanians/Kosovo, Bosnian and some other minor groups while the rest of the Slavic groups did not converted.

What are the causes of the Albanians being predominantly Muslim, while all the other countries in the Balkans/eastern Europe predominantly Christian?

Despite an even longer Muslim Arab presence in Spain, Portugal (800 years almost) compared to approximately 450 years of Ottoman presence in Balkans, today more people live in Iberia than in the entire Balkans combined, there are no native Muslims any longer. Same story with Malta, parts of Southern France, Sicily, parts of Southern Italy, Crete, half of Cyprus etc.

40% of Albania remains Christian (Catholic and Orthodox) and it is in general one of the least religious countries in the world. Tiny Kosovo is an exception and the biggest Muslim-majority region in Europe.

I have a few Bosnian friends and they tell me that most of them converted to Islam over the generations because they previously always were in conflict with Christians as they were distinctive Christians before that were persecuted.

Read about Bogomilism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism

In general neither the Arabs nor the Ottomans priority was to mass-convert locals.

It probably also helped the Bosniaks, Albanians and Kosovars (who are essentially Albanians) that there was no Catholic Church around or inquisition or an Isabella or Ferdinand.

As far as Albanians go and why they became Muslims and not Bulgarians or Macedonians for instance, I have no idea but somehow I tend to believe that it could have something to do wit their relative isolation, tribalism and the fact that they were the odd ones in the region as they spoke a completely different language and tend to have a quite distinctive culture that separates them from their mostly Slavic neighbors. Converting probably also gave them economic and political benefits as I know that many Ottoman personalities from military to bureaucrats were of Albanian origin.

In fact we can just take a look at the most recent royal dynasty in Egypt. The Muhammad Ali dynasty. They were of Albanian origin.

Anyway despite most Albanians being nominally Muslims they are quite nationalistic people and their national hero remains Skanderbeg who resisted Ottoman rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg

Because most Europeans were not sellouts to their faith ,prefering a life in misery than to trade their souls.

What does it matter if Europeans adopt Islam or Christianity? Both are Semitic (Abrahamic) religions native to the Middle East and alien to traditional European paganism in its various forms. I guess an Romanian pagan 1000 years ago could have the exact same view about Romanian Christian converts during that era, don't you think?

Albanians and Bosniaks remain European except for their religion which they are quite relaxed about to put it mildly. However Islam has a 1300 year old history in Europe so one could easily argue that it is part of European history. Go to Spain/Portugal (Spanish and Portuguese culture shaped modern-day European culture tremendously) and people will admit this openly as it is visible on most fronts be it cuisine, architecture, language, agriculture, music, names etc.

It is a strange phenomenon to see Europeans call Bosnians and Albanians for traitors as if all Europeans were a homogenous lot (forgetting that Europeans have murdered each other more than any other people by far in history) and if they (Europeans) had no relation to religions originating in the Middle East (Christianity and Judaism). It is a hilarious concept that naturally derives from Islamophobia.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

As a general sociological phenomenon there are many variables that have a play on this. The nature of economics, population density, local politics all come together. As a starting point converting Europeans would have been more difficult simply because of the huge relative population. In historic times Europe had far higher population then the areas that became Muslim dominant.

We must keep in mind that in previous times farming was the foundation of everything. Arid and semi-arid regions only supported sparse populations unlike the wet climate regions of Europe. It is far easier to convert a tiny population then a huge population. There are other variables as well but population density is very significant. The map below correlates the dry regions with Muslim dominant regions. There are exceptions but the pattern is visible.

 

[flamer84]

Despite an even longer Muslim Arab presence in Spain, Portugal (800 years almost) compared to approximately 450 years of Ottoman presence in Balkans, today more people live in Iberia than in the entire Balkans combined, there are no native Muslims any longer. Same story with Malta, parts of Southern France, Sicily, parts of Southern Italy, Crete, half of Cyprus etc.

40% of Albania remains Christian (Catholic and Orthodox) and it is in general one of the least religious countries in the world. Tiny Kosovo is an exception and the biggest Muslim-majority region in Europe.

I have a few Bosnian friends and they tell me that most of them converted to Islam over the generations because they previously always were in conflict with Christians as they were distinctive Christians before that were persecuted.

Read about Bogomilism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism

In general neither the Arabs nor the Ottomans priority was to mass-convert locals.

It probably also helped the Bosniaks, Albanians and Kosovars (who are essentially Albanians) that there was no Catholic Church around or inquisition or an Isabella or Ferdinand.

As far as Albanians go and why they became Muslims and not Bulgarians or Macedonians for instance, I have no idea but somehow I tend to believe that it could have something to do wit their relative isolation, tribalism and the fact that they were the odd ones in the region as they spoke a completely different language and tend to have a quite distinctive culture that separates them from their mostly Slavic neighbors. Converting probably also gave them economic and political benefits as I know that many Ottoman personalities from military to bureaucrats were of Albanian origin.

In fact we can just take a look at the most recent royal dynasty in Egypt. The Muhammad Ali dynasty. They were of Albanian origin.

Anyway despite most Albanians being nominally Muslims they are quite nationalistic people and their national hero remains Skanderbeg who resisted Ottoman rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg



What does it matter if Europeans adopt Islam or Christianity? Both are Semitic (Abrahamic) religions native to the Middle East and alien to traditional European paganism in its various forms. I guess an Romanian pagan 1000 years ago could have the exact same view about Romanian Christian converts during that era, don't you think?

Albanians and Bosniaks remain European except for their religion which they are quite relaxed about to put it mildly.

It is a strange phenomenon to see Europeans call Bosnians and Albanians for traitors as if all Europeans were a homogenous lot (forgetting that Europeans have murdered each other more than any other people by far in history) and if they (Europeans) had no relation to religions originating in the Middle East (Christianity and Judaism). It is a hilarious concept that naturally derives from Islamophobia.

I know that latter day Catholicism spread Christianity by the sword but generally,in Europe,it was spread by missionarism.It was certainly the case with Romanians for example or with most Slavs.Islam came with an invader and some 800 years later after they were christians and they chsnged faith for material gains .

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

I know that latter day Catholicism spread Christianity by the sword but generally,in Europe,it was spread by missionarism.It was certainly the case with Romanians for example or with most Slavs.Islam came with an invader and some 800 years later after they were christians and they chsnged faith for material gains .

That's a myth. European pagans were routinely massacred and those that resisted (Slavic tribes in Eastern Germany for instance or the Baltic people who first became Christians in the 13th century and early 14th century) were constantly attacked by Christian crusaders, mostly by the Teutonic Order.

In all of Slavic Europe there were initially Pagan revolts shortly after the rulers adopted Christianity and they were all brutally crushed hence why you can hardly find any traces of paganism in most of Europe.

Christianity for instance was used by the Holy Roman Emperor to spread his influence. In all newly converted Christian kingdoms monks and priests from foreign lands arrived to influence events.

In Al-Andalus there were no massacres of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully. In fact most of the population even after 800 years of Muslim rule, remained Christian.

There is a reason why Al-Andalus was the most developed region of Europe during that time and had the biggest learning centers in the world only rivaled by Baghdad and Middle Eastern metropolis. The biggest Jewish community in Europe also lived in Al-Andalus due to persecution in other parts of Europe (Christian-ruled Europe).

Also let's not talk, although this is not the topic, about how Christianity spread in the "New World" until very recently. Congo and King Leopold is a good example.

During that era the Muslims were the by far the more tolerant and progressive ones. Today this is not the case but that won't change the history that we are discussing.

 

[flamer84]

That's a myth. European pagans were routinely massacred and those that resisted (Slavic tribes in Eastern Germany for instance or the Baltic people who first became Christians in the 13th century and early 14th century) were constantly attacked by Christian crusaders, mostly by the Teutonic Order.

In all of Slavic Europe there were initially Pagan revolts shortly after the rulers adopted Christianity and they were all brutally crushed hence why you can hardly find any traces of paganism in most of Europe.

Christianity for instance was used by the Holy Roman Emperor to spread his influence. In all newly converted Christian kingdoms monks and priests from foreign lands arrived to influence events.

In Al-Andalus there were no massacres of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully. In fact most of the population even after 800 years of Muslim rule, remained Christian.

There is a reason why Al-Andalus was the most developed region of Europe during that time and had the biggest learning centers in the world only rivaled by Baghdad and Middle Eastern metropolis.

During that era the Muslims were the by far more tolerant ones. Today this is not the case but that won't change the history that we are discussing.

'

Nor does it change the fact that only Bosnians,most Albanians changed faith altough Greeks,Serbs,Bulgarians,Hungarians,Romanians,Croatians,even Russians und3r Ottoman,Tatar yoke kept their faith.We have the right to view them as we please,and yes,they are seen as sellouts.

 

[Baybars Han]

Because most Europeans were not sellouts to their faith ,prefering a life in misery than to trade their souls.

Either your trolling or your brain is smaller than a fish. If I put a sword to your neck, you might not convert, but then I could just kill you and then if you kid is small enough he wouldn't even know anything and I would raise him as a Muslim and then he's kids, and there kids son on. If this happened over hundreds of years more than 30 generations, then eventually all would of become Muslims.

Answer, Ottomans didn't force anyone to convert.

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

'

Nor does it change the fact that only Bosnians,most Albanians changed faith altough Greeks,Serbs,Bulgarians,Hungarians,Romanians,Croatians,even Russians und3r Ottoman,Tatar yoke kept their faith.We have the right to view them as we please,and yes,they are seen as sellouts.

You don't really address much of what I wrote but nevertheless, I will ask you once again, one could easily apply the same logic about you (Christian Europeans) who were sellouts and adopted a foreign and alien religion from the Middle East and abandoned their native paganism that they likely had followed for millennia or at least a considerable amount of time.

I would have understood your logic had you still remained pagans. Albanians and Bosnians can convert to Hinduism tomorrow whose business is that other than their own? Do you think that I would care if say Chadians started mass-converting to African paganism tomorrow?

 

[flamer84]

Either your trolling or your brain is smaller than a fish. If I put a sword to your neck, you might not convert, but then I could just kill you and then if you kid is small enough he wouldn't even know anything and I would raise him as a Muslim and then he's kids, and there kids son on. If this happened over hundreds of years more than 30 generations, then eventually all would of become Muslims.

Answer, Ottomans didn't force anyone to convert.

No,but they did offer advantages to muslims over non muslims but the majority rejected these advantages and kept their faith.I respect over those 2 Balkan sellouts.

You don't really address much of what I wrote but nevertheless, I will ask you once again, one could easily apply the same logic about you (Christian Europeans) who were sellouts and adopted a foreign and alien religion from the Middle East and abandoned their native paganism that they likely had followed for millennia or at least a considerable amount of time.

I would have understood your logic had you still remained pagans. Albanians and Bosnians can convert to Hinduism tomorrow whose business is that other than their own? Do you think that I would care if say Chadians started mass-converting to African paganism tomorrow?

I did,your examples were exceptions,not a rule.As a general rule,Christianity came through missionarism,Islam came brought by foreign invaders.

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

No,but they did offer advantages to muslims over non muslims but the majority rejected these advantages and kept their faith.I respect over those 2 Balkan sellouts.


I did,your examples were exceptions,not a rule.As a general rule,Christianity came through missionarism,Islam came brought by foreign invaders.

Yes, because for most Europeans the Roman Empire were no foreigners who did not spread their culture, language and religion (after they adopted Christianity) with military might? OK, lol.

The same Romans and modern-day Italians that genetically have more in common with people of the Arab world next door than they have with say conquered territory in the British Isles or historical Germania. I am sure that Anglo-Saxons saw Romans as natives just coming for a extended visit. Similarly the Germanic hordes.

Ever wondered why the largest Roman artifacts in the world can be found in Arab states from North Africa to Jordan?

This silly attempt at displaying Europe as some kind of unified continent on all fronts is a very recent phenomenon. Europe is many times more diverse and divided linguistically, culturally, historically etc. than the MENA region next door for instance.

Without liberalism and the Age of Enlightenment Europe would have remained the battleground of a few powerful entities and 1000's of small city states. Infighting as usual until after WW1 and WW2 (100 million casualties in total) woke them up for a while.

 

[flamer84]

Yes, because for most Europeans the Roman Empire were no foreigners who did not spread their culture, language and religion (after they adopted Christianity) with military might? OK, lol



The same Romans and modern-day Italians that genetically have moe in common with people of the Arab world next door than they have with say conquered territory in the British Isles or historical Germania.

Ever wondered why the largest Roman artifacts in the world can be found in Arab states from North Africa to Jordan?

Most of the Roman Empire adopted Christianity late in the 4th century when it was a spent force,they didn t spread Christianity by force.Most Germanic tribes,power brokers of the day in 4,5,6 th century Europe adopted the new religion.So did later most of the Slavs,the Northmen,(vikings),or the 9th century newly arrived from the Asian steppes,Hungarians.

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

Most of the Roman Empire adopted Christianity late in the 4th century when it was a spent force,they didn t spread Christianity by force.Most Germanic tribes,power brokers of the day in 4,5,6 th century Europe adopted the new religion.So did later most of the Slavs,the Northmen,(vikings),or the 9th century newly arrived from the Asian steppes,Hungarians.

OK, Christianity never spread violently within Europe let alone outside of it and Islam always spread using violent means best exemplified by Al-Andalus the longest lasting Muslim entity in Europe. Got it. Evil Muslims. Christian Saints.

Europeans adopting one foreign Semitic religion originating from the Middle East (Christianity) and leaving their own native pagan religions that they followed for millennia or at least a very long time, are not traitors, but a tiny minority of Europeans adopting a different Semitic religion originating from the same Middle East later, are traitors.

We got it, you guys, especially the Eastern European lot, don't want Muslims or islam in your lands (evil Turks) but at least be consistent in your arguments.

In any case I predict that religion will play a marginal role in say 100 years so none of this is important.

 

[flamer84]

OK, Christianity never spread violently within Europe let alone outside of it and Islam always spread using violent means best exemplified by Al-Andalus the longest lasting Muslim entity in Europe. Got it. Evil Muslims. Christian Saints.

I never said never,read my posts again but as a rule Christianity started by missionarism,Islam by conquest

 

[Sargon of Akkad]

I never said never,read my posts again but as a rule Christianity started by missionarism,Islam by conquest

Islam did not start by conquest. Arabs, who adopted Islam as the first people, were united by Islam and after this unification went to reconquer their ancient native lands that were occupied by Byzantines and Persians. Hence once when they defeated those two foreign occupiers the locals, Jews included, welcomed them with open arms as liberators.

Initially Muslims were almost exclusively Arabs as Arabs had no intention to mass-convert people. As time went on others began to adopt Islam as it was by far the most progressive religion in that era.

Christianity spread through missionary work initially by a small group of Jewish converts and Christian Arabs that migrated to Caucasus and Anatolia and from there Greece but afterwards, once established as a state religion, Christianity was used as an weapon and excuse for conquest by leading European powers of the time. There is no denying that.