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Putin Said to Stun Advisers by Backing Corruption Crackdown

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@Black Flag @Chinese-Dragon @vostok @senheiser @AgentOrange

Putin is nothing if not adaptable. I thought this article might interest you because it touches on the recent experience of China, the effect of corruption on an economy vs. external issues, and how the sanctions might end up creating a more robust Russian economy in the long run (if these reforms are successful).
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Putin Said to Stun Advisers by Backing Corruption Crackdown - Bloomberg

Putin Said to Stun Advisers by Backing Corruption Crackdown
By Evgenia Pismennaya and Irina Reznik - Nov 19, 2014
Vladimir Putin sat motionless as the minister, seizing on the Russian leader’s first major meeting with his economic team in months, itemized the challenges.

A recession is imminent, inflation is getting out of hand and the ruble and oil are in freefall, Economy Minister Alexei Ulyukayev told Putin, according to people who attended the meeting at the presidential mansion near Moscow in mid-October. Clearly, Ulyukayev concluded, sanctions need to be lifted.

At that, Putin recoiled. Do you, Alexei Valentinovich, he asked, using a patronymic, know how to do that? No, Vladimir Vladimirovich, Ulyukayev was said to reply, we were hoping you did. Putin said he didn’t know either and demanded options for surviving a decade of even more onerous sanctions, leaving the group deflated, the people said.

Waging Financial War

Days later, they presented Putin with two variants. To their surprise, he chose an initiative dubbed “economic liberalization,” aimed at easing the financial burden of corruption on all enterprises in the country, the people said. It was something they had championed for several years without gaining traction.

The policy, which Putin plans to announce during his annual address to parliament next month, calls for a crackdown on inspections and other forms of bureaucratic bullying that cost businesses tens of billions of dollars a year in bribes and kickbacks, the people said. It entails an order from the president to end predatory behavior, with prosecution being the incentive for compliance, they said.

Thieves Beware
“Wastefulness, an inability to manage state funds and even outright bribery, theft, won’t go unnoticed,” Putin said at a meeting with supporters in Moscow yesterday.

Related: Russian Accountant Loses Tooth in Ruble Devaluation

Russia’s growing isolation over its support for the separatist rebellion in Ukraine has created a divide among competing factions within Putin’s inner circle. One group, the “siloviki,” is dominated by men who share Putin’s background in the security services and reject U.S. hegemony. They’ve held the upper hand over another bloc, centered around Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, that favors less state control over the economy, according to five officials close to the president.

Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said he wasn’t aware of any specific “liberalization plan” and declined to comment on what the president plans to say in his address to parliament.

“We are constantly and purposefully cutting the bureaucratic burden on businesses,” Peskov said by phone. Ulyukayev declined to comment through his press service.

Putin’s Choice
Putin’s backing of the program marks a revival of sorts for the Medvedev faction, which advocates closer integration with the U.S. and Europe, a process now derailed by sanctions, as the path most beneficial to the country. This group, which includes Ulyukayev, had been sidelined since February, when the overthrow of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Russia’s ally, spurred the siloviki to organize the annexation of Crimea.

Putin chose the corruption crackdown policy over the other option presented by his economic team: the “mega-projects” program. That path would further enrich two of his closest allies, billionaires Gennady Timchenko and Arkady Rotenberg, by transfering huge sums of money to contractors.

With sanctions hurting more than anticipated, declaring a war on corruption is an “obvious” course of action, but it’s bound to fail, said Boris Makarenko, deputy director of the Center for Political Technologies in Moscow.

‘New Reality’
“Such measures are alien to the mentality of the government bureaucracy, whose natural instinct is to go for more of the same, more regulation, more squeezing revenues from businesses,” Makarenko said.

It was only in September and October that officials and executives fully realized that sanctions will be in place for a long time and that urgent measures are needed to limit the damage, according to Sergey Dubinin, the former central bank governor who is now chairman of state-run VTB Group, Russia’s second-largest bank.

“They were hoping the sanctions were temporary,” Dubinin said in an interview in the Russian capital. “Now they’ve woken up to the new reality.”

The call to action was triggered by the “shocking devaluation” of the ruble, which unfolded as the closure of foreign financial markets coincided with falling prices for oil, the country’s largest export, Dubinin said. That has sparked a cash crunch for companies that have $44 billion of debt due by year’s end, according to central bank estimates.

Oil Burden
Putin said last week Russia is prepared to withstand a “catastrophic” slump in oil prices. Brent, a benchmark for more than half of the world’s crude, has plunged 30 percent since the end of June. The ruble has declined the same amount against the dollar this year, the most of 24 emerging-market currencies tracked by Bloomberg.

Before the first round of sanctions were imposed in March, the government did a good job of creating a “favorable external environment” for Russian companies, even though corruption and other internal pressures remained burdensome, said Sergei Vasilyev, deputy head of state development bank VEB.

“Now the external environment has become very difficult, so we need to liberalize the internal environment to create better conditions for economic agents,” Vasilyev said. “Liberalization can help offset adverse external conditions without increasing the tax burden.”

Official Swindlers
Former Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin, who sits on the president’s Economic Council, said a successful campaign against extortion would be akin to cutting taxes without further weakening public finances. Corruption is one of the greatest obstacles to growth and if Putin pushes the policy with the same vigor he pursues security issues, the impact on the economy may be profound, Kudrin said in an interview.

“The key driver for the development of the country is citizens’ confidence in the economy,” Kudrin said. “The first thing to do is to limit the number of control and supervisory functions of the state. Authorities simply have to stop going to enterprises to swindle money. We have to limit fire, sanitary and technical inspections.”

In 2008, when Putin swapped jobs with Medvedev for four years, businesses were paying more than $200 billion a year in bribes, Moscow-based research group Indem said in a report that year, using data from prosecutors. Most Russians say corruption has only gotten worse since, according to a survey published by Transparency International.

‘Economic Freedom’
Business Solidarity, a Moscow-based organization that campaigns against corruption, estimates that bribes, kickbacks and related illegal activities end up increasing the retail price of most goods by 30 percent.

A crackdown on inspections, if done right, could have an “immediate impact” on the economy, said MDM Bank Chairman Oleg Vyugin, who served as first deputy head of the central bank from 2002 to 2004. As it is now, law-enforcement agencies have a simple business model: the more they inspect, the more they earn, Vyugin said in an interview.

“The economic powers of the Investigative Committee, the Prosecutor General’s Office and the police must be curbed,” Vyugin said. “This is the only way to convince people that it’s possible to develop a business here.”

There’s an irony about the U.S. and European sanctions that isn’t lost on the members of Putin’s economic team. While the penalties have pushed foreign investors away, they’ve also become the catalyst for meeting one of their key demands -- rooting out corruption.

One of the major debates about the new program now is what to call it because Putin thinks “Economic Liberalization” sounds too western, according to one of the people who attended last month’s policy meeting. The frontrunner is “Economic Freedom” and everyone is praying he doesn’t change his mind, the person said.
 
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He can start with his own shady wallet

Vladimir Putin Net Worth - TheRichest

Is there any concrete evidence of this? I've seen articles that have insinuated he's the world's richest man and I've no doubt that he's profited but the world's richest? Unless there's proof, I'm going to chalk it up to the same type of journalism that said he was dying of pancreatic cancer.
 
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@Black Flag @Chinese-Dragon @vostok @senheiser @AgentOrange

Putin is nothing if not adaptable. I thought this article might interest you because it touches on the recent experience of China, the effect of corruption on an economy vs. external issues, and how the sanctions might end up creating a more robust Russian economy in the long run (if these reforms are successful).
---

Putin Said to Stun Advisers by Backing Corruption Crackdown - Bloomberg

Putin Said to Stun Advisers by Backing Corruption Crackdown
By Evgenia Pismennaya and Irina Reznik - Nov 19, 2014
Vladimir Putin sat motionless as the minister, seizing on the Russian leader’s first major meeting with his economic team in months, itemized the challenges.

A recession is imminent, inflation is getting out of hand and the ruble and oil are in freefall, Economy Minister Alexei Ulyukayev told Putin, according to people who attended the meeting at the presidential mansion near Moscow in mid-October. Clearly, Ulyukayev concluded, sanctions need to be lifted.

At that, Putin recoiled. Do you, Alexei Valentinovich, he asked, using a patronymic, know how to do that? No, Vladimir Vladimirovich, Ulyukayev was said to reply, we were hoping you did. Putin said he didn’t know either and demanded options for surviving a decade of even more onerous sanctions, leaving the group deflated, the people said.

Waging Financial War

Days later, they presented Putin with two variants. To their surprise, he chose an initiative dubbed “economic liberalization,” aimed at easing the financial burden of corruption on all enterprises in the country, the people said. It was something they had championed for several years without gaining traction.

The policy, which Putin plans to announce during his annual address to parliament next month, calls for a crackdown on inspections and other forms of bureaucratic bullying that cost businesses tens of billions of dollars a year in bribes and kickbacks, the people said. It entails an order from the president to end predatory behavior, with prosecution being the incentive for compliance, they said.

Thieves Beware
“Wastefulness, an inability to manage state funds and even outright bribery, theft, won’t go unnoticed,” Putin said at a meeting with supporters in Moscow yesterday.

Related: Russian Accountant Loses Tooth in Ruble Devaluation

Russia’s growing isolation over its support for the separatist rebellion in Ukraine has created a divide among competing factions within Putin’s inner circle. One group, the “siloviki,” is dominated by men who share Putin’s background in the security services and reject U.S. hegemony. They’ve held the upper hand over another bloc, centered around Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, that favors less state control over the economy, according to five officials close to the president.

Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said he wasn’t aware of any specific “liberalization plan” and declined to comment on what the president plans to say in his address to parliament.

“We are constantly and purposefully cutting the bureaucratic burden on businesses,” Peskov said by phone. Ulyukayev declined to comment through his press service.

Putin’s Choice
Putin’s backing of the program marks a revival of sorts for the Medvedev faction, which advocates closer integration with the U.S. and Europe, a process now derailed by sanctions, as the path most beneficial to the country. This group, which includes Ulyukayev, had been sidelined since February, when the overthrow of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, Russia’s ally, spurred the siloviki to organize the annexation of Crimea.

Putin chose the corruption crackdown policy over the other option presented by his economic team: the “mega-projects” program. That path would further enrich two of his closest allies, billionaires Gennady Timchenko and Arkady Rotenberg, by transfering huge sums of money to contractors.

With sanctions hurting more than anticipated, declaring a war on corruption is an “obvious” course of action, but it’s bound to fail, said Boris Makarenko, deputy director of the Center for Political Technologies in Moscow.

‘New Reality’
“Such measures are alien to the mentality of the government bureaucracy, whose natural instinct is to go for more of the same, more regulation, more squeezing revenues from businesses,” Makarenko said.

It was only in September and October that officials and executives fully realized that sanctions will be in place for a long time and that urgent measures are needed to limit the damage, according to Sergey Dubinin, the former central bank governor who is now chairman of state-run VTB Group, Russia’s second-largest bank.

“They were hoping the sanctions were temporary,” Dubinin said in an interview in the Russian capital. “Now they’ve woken up to the new reality.”

The call to action was triggered by the “shocking devaluation” of the ruble, which unfolded as the closure of foreign financial markets coincided with falling prices for oil, the country’s largest export, Dubinin said. That has sparked a cash crunch for companies that have $44 billion of debt due by year’s end, according to central bank estimates.

Oil Burden
Putin said last week Russia is prepared to withstand a “catastrophic” slump in oil prices. Brent, a benchmark for more than half of the world’s crude, has plunged 30 percent since the end of June. The ruble has declined the same amount against the dollar this year, the most of 24 emerging-market currencies tracked by Bloomberg.

Before the first round of sanctions were imposed in March, the government did a good job of creating a “favorable external environment” for Russian companies, even though corruption and other internal pressures remained burdensome, said Sergei Vasilyev, deputy head of state development bank VEB.

“Now the external environment has become very difficult, so we need to liberalize the internal environment to create better conditions for economic agents,” Vasilyev said. “Liberalization can help offset adverse external conditions without increasing the tax burden.”

Official Swindlers
Former Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin, who sits on the president’s Economic Council, said a successful campaign against extortion would be akin to cutting taxes without further weakening public finances. Corruption is one of the greatest obstacles to growth and if Putin pushes the policy with the same vigor he pursues security issues, the impact on the economy may be profound, Kudrin said in an interview.

“The key driver for the development of the country is citizens’ confidence in the economy,” Kudrin said. “The first thing to do is to limit the number of control and supervisory functions of the state. Authorities simply have to stop going to enterprises to swindle money. We have to limit fire, sanitary and technical inspections.”

In 2008, when Putin swapped jobs with Medvedev for four years, businesses were paying more than $200 billion a year in bribes, Moscow-based research group Indem said in a report that year, using data from prosecutors. Most Russians say corruption has only gotten worse since, according to a survey published by Transparency International.

‘Economic Freedom’
Business Solidarity, a Moscow-based organization that campaigns against corruption, estimates that bribes, kickbacks and related illegal activities end up increasing the retail price of most goods by 30 percent.

A crackdown on inspections, if done right, could have an “immediate impact” on the economy, said MDM Bank Chairman Oleg Vyugin, who served as first deputy head of the central bank from 2002 to 2004. As it is now, law-enforcement agencies have a simple business model: the more they inspect, the more they earn, Vyugin said in an interview.

“The economic powers of the Investigative Committee, the Prosecutor General’s Office and the police must be curbed,” Vyugin said. “This is the only way to convince people that it’s possible to develop a business here.”

There’s an irony about the U.S. and European sanctions that isn’t lost on the members of Putin’s economic team. While the penalties have pushed foreign investors away, they’ve also become the catalyst for meeting one of their key demands -- rooting out corruption.

One of the major debates about the new program now is what to call it because Putin thinks “Economic Liberalization” sounds too western, according to one of the people who attended last month’s policy meeting. The frontrunner is “Economic Freedom” and everyone is praying he doesn’t change his mind, the person said.

I wish Russia the best. In theory, they have more tools at their disposal than China regarding a corruption crackdown. Their courts and media are *theoretically* independent. It remains to be seen how much Putin will let them slip the leash.
 
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Classic Putin:

Wow, great find. That encapsulates everything that's wrong with the Putin era.

1) No rule of law. Only rule of Putin.
2) He interferes in private business to bolster his popularity.
3) His interference is likely economically damaging
4) He controls the economy through his circle of oligarchs
5) Due to lack of transparency, we don't even know if this achieved what his photo-op suggested. Who is to say Putin wasn't handed a briefcase of cash afterwards to make this go away?

Anyway, I hope for Russia's sake that the anti-corruption crackdown is real. There's a thread about a misunderstanding over $2bn of Japanese aid to Vietnam where the users are discussing the merits of aid in helping a country develop, and the consensus seems to be that the corruption that results from aid is far more damaging than the growth catalyzed by the aid. So too with purely domestic economics: corruption undermines most of the other policy levers.

Will Putin surrender enough power to create the strong institutions necessary to stamp out corruption? Or is this just a drive-by operation, until Russia adapts to the "new normal" of economic sanctions? Only time will tell.
 
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Yes, yes, I understand the definition. How does that prove the, IMO, outlandish claim that Putin is the world's richest person?

Who says he's the richest? There's at least 3 people worth more than the $70B quoted.

But we'll never know the number because he obviously isn't talking.
 
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Is there any concrete evidence of this? I've seen articles that have insinuated he's the world's richest man and I've no doubt that he's profited but the world's richest? Unless there's proof, I'm going to chalk it up to the same type of journalism that said he was dying of pancreatic cancer.
LOL. Never believe in all those worthless "rich lists" as they only tell estimated stakes these rich people control of stocks, shares, bonds and other worthy assets. In reality, this mass amounts of wealth must be converted to cash in order to gain real purchasing power. Since its impossible to sell all fortune a person is worth instantly, and thus convert into exchangeable currency such as $, it makes these so-called rich lists useless! The real rich list should also include how much of net worth a rich person is able to spend at any given time. For example, I might become richest person in the world by having 0,01 % stake in all the companies existing today, yet my purchasing power wouldn't be more than a average middle class person at any given time! :D

and the consensus seems to be that the corruption that results from aid is far more damaging than the growth catalyzed by the aid.
LOL. You guys formed this consensus now? Just look at devastating state of corruption in Sub-Saharan Africa, Palestine and other once thriving states from the 60's that are now plagued by the curst of international aid and economic assistance from abroad! :D

Will Putin surrender enough power to create the strong institutions necessary to stamp out corruption?
If US could not do it, why do you expect Putin to do the same? In large countries with millions of people, corruption automatically becomes a norm. If you want corruption free society, try modelling your economic structure after Scandinavia, Singapore, Switzerland etc.
 
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LOL. You guys formed this consensus now? Just look at devastating state of corruption in Sub-Saharan Africa, Palestine and other once thriving states from the 60's that are now plagued by the curst of international aid and economic assistance from abroad! :D

Perhaps I mis-communicated. We have already discussed, among others, the work of William Easterly in showing the deleterious effects of development aid on the emerging markets. Aid has done some good, but what is being argued is whether the development aid is given for good intentions or not. I don't subscribe to this point of view, but some in the thread hold that development aid is a trap meant to permanently subordinate developing economies to the contributors; personally, I think it's more a matter of good intentions leading to tragic--but unintended--consequences.

If US could not do it, why do you expect Putin to do the same? In large countries with millions of people, corruption automatically becomes a norm. If you want corruption free society, try modelling your economic structure after Scandinavia, Singapore, Switzerland etc.

Singapore and Scandinavia are difficult examples to follow because the US would never tolerate that level of authoritarianism and lack of privacy. Switzerland is a difficult model to follow because federalization and direct democracy to that degree would tear apart a large country like the US.

The difference between the US and Russia is that our corruption is checked through transparency and strong, independent institutions. Corruption exists, but it is, for the most part, eventually caught and punished ("the wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine," and all of that). There is no such check on Russia except whether one is in Putin's favor (Usmanov) or not (Khodorkovsky) at any point in time.
 
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but some in the thread hold that development aid is a trap meant to permanently subordinate developing economies to the contributors; personally, I think it's more a matter of good intentions leading to tragic--but unintended--consequences.
If economic or military aid is given as an investment, and not as a loan, debt or charity, then I agree with you that its a good intention. What happened in the corrupt states like Pakistan, that most if not all aid went to the personal bank accounts of dictators, bureaucrats, government officials and other parties milking the state treasury. This causes debt burden to only grow for the entire people, and incompetent leaders increasingly rely on foreign aid to fulfill holes in their overblown yearly budgets.

Singapore and Scandinavia are difficult examples to follow because the US would never tolerate that level of authoritarianism and lack of privacy.
More transparency is not exactly "authoritarianism". In a transparent country like Norway, where I live, each year tax returns are published online for entire nation to evaluate how much tax their neighbors, friends, colleagues have contributed to the state. And the more you pay, the better you are respected as a responsible citizen unlike your "corrupt" US society where you are seen as a hero after evading millions of $ worth of taxes by "creative" means :)

The difference between the US and Russia is that our corruption is checked through transparency and strong, independent institutions.
Rampant corruption is US is one of the main reasons why your once great country is so highly indebted and in financial ruins:
The Stanford Center for the Study of Poverty and Inequality - 20 Facts About U.S. Inequality that Everyone Should Know

Corruption exists, but it is, for the most part, eventually caught and punished ("the wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine," and all of that). There is no such check on Russia except whether one is in Putin's favor (Usmanov) or not (Khodorkovsky) at any point in time.
Although I do agree that your country has strong institutions and capability to investigate people, corporations that commit economic crimes, I see your relaxed tax-laws, tax-cuts on extremely rich people as too lavish and contributing factor behind increasing wealth and income equality in US!
 
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More transparency is not exactly "authoritarianism". In a transparent country like Norway, where I live, each year tax returns are published online for entire nation to evaluate how much tax their neighbors, friends, colleagues have contributed to the state. And the more you pay, the better you are respected as a responsible citizen unlike your "corrupt" US society where you are seen as a hero after evading millions of $ worth of taxes by "creative" means :)

Although I do agree that your country has strong institutions and capability to investigate people, corporations that commit economic crimes, I see your relaxed tax-laws, tax-cuts on extremely rich people as too lavish and contributing factor behind increasing wealth and income equality in US!

I'm afraid this is going to be another "agree to disagree" moment. I view tax minimization as a virtue, because I believe in the Robert Nozick school of thought that there is no ethical or legitimate case for confiscating (through taxes) income earned legitimately. Taxation itself is a mechanism of corruption, because there is no connection between the taxes I pay and the value I receive.

Everyone blames tax revenues for the deficit/debt problem, but few realize that if government would cut spending, the problem would magically disappear. In fact, the sickening aspect of the discussion is that government doesn't even need to cut spending to solve the issue--it simply needs to stop the annual increase in spending.

I also don't believe that income inequality is a problem, because risk-takers and innovators should be rewarded disproportionately for their contributions to society, as dictated by the market (if they added no value, they would not be rewarded with wealth). It rubs salt in my wounds to see the disproportionate amount of taxes I pay not only used in a way that doesn't benefit me, but is moreover used proactively as a weapon to propagandize against me (through socialized healthcare and social security, i.e. "you can afford it, why won't you help these poor people?" when I am not responsible for their misfortune, and in many cases, it wasn't bad luck that put them in that position, but their own poor choices). I have a personal stake in this, so no one will ever be able to convince me that siphoning money out of my bank account is for my own best interest.

Back to topic:
Theft should be punished, success should not be. Unfortunately, it's all too often the reverse in Russia today.
 
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I view tax minimization as a virtue, because I believe in the Robert Nozick school of thought that there is no ethical or legitimate case for confiscating (through taxes) income earned legitimately.

Robert Nozick? That perky Jew! Btw, I am a hidden antisemite, despite openly being a Muslim Zionist! :D
Radical influences from these Jewish American thinkers luckily do not reach European soil, or we would have all be following uncontrolled, unchecked and unbalanced free-market capitalism like US! :)

Taxation itself is a mechanism of corruption, because there is no connection between the taxes I pay and the value I receive.
I think this argument was inspired by that narcissist Robert Nozick as well? :-) For your information, as a responsible citizen of your state, its your responsibility to pay for your government's expenses. Money you pay in taxes goes to fund infrastructure, run schools, hospitals and other public sector institution. The very idea that one should pay minimum of taxes because they do not benefit my own self is a thought of a selfish person. Just like you have a legal responsibility for your family, you also bear responsibility of a government that you vote in. If you keep voting in governments that promise less taxes, the end result you get is a total collapse of your middle class as evident in US facts and figures today!
The middle class is poorer today than it was in 1989 - The Washington Post

Everyone blames tax revenues for the deficit/debt problem, but few realize that if government would cut spending, the problem would magically disappear.
LOL. So cutting spending on public projects such as health, education, crucial infrastructure, maintenance would solve the inherent problem of not taxing the rich? :) Btw, US is still spending the most of all nations on defense, which makes no sense after the official end of Cold War 24 years ago.

In fact, the sickening aspect of the discussion is that government doesn't even need to cut spending to solve the issue--it simply needs to stop the annual increase in spending.
Not true. Your government must tax the ultra-rich as they did in post-war era, taking upto 70-90 % in taxes. It was responsible for the post-war prosperity ALL Americans experienced until this era was ended by Reaganomics permanently.

I also don't believe that income inequality is a problem, because risk-takers and innovators should be rewarded disproportionately for their contributions to society, as dictated by the market (if they added no value, they would not be rewarded with wealth).
This is where we disagree completely! I don't expect every child born to become a millionaire, but I expect them to at least receive decent living wage which most Americans used to earn back in the 60's, early 70's. Back then, one job was ENOUGH to feed an entire family of 4 and women didn't even need to work. That just changed in late 70's and worsened after Reagan came along with his famous tax-cuts on filthy rich.

It rubs salt in my wounds to see the disproportionate amount of taxes I pay not only used in a way that doesn't benefit me, but is moreover used proactively as a weapon to propagandize against me (through socialized healthcare and social security, i.e. "you can afford it, why won't you help these poor people?" when I am not responsible for their misfortune, and in many cases, it wasn't bad luck that put them in that position, but their own poor choices).
Typical selfish mentality eating American society from within! They are your fellow American citizens. If you are not going to take care of them, who would? Arabs? Iranians? Social healthcare and security is NOT socialism. Its called welfare for those who lost jobs due to economic downturn (thanks to neverending greed of the banksters). Also those who cannot afford healthcare privately should get free treatment by the state as a human being. Its a norm in most Western countries, heck even in Israel which you love soooo much! :) I think you Americans do not see each other as one people, that's why social fabric your society evidently is still divided in black, white, latin "races", blue collar jobs for White, low paying jobs for Latino-Blacks, ultra-rich who never bother paying taxes, and ultra-poor who don't give a damn about their own country.

I have a personal stake in this, so no one will ever be able to convince me that siphoning money out of my bank account is for my own best interest.
So goodwill of American people is not "your" interest? I forgot, Americans do not see each other as ONE people :D

Theft should be punished, success should not be. Unfortunately, it's all too often the reverse in Russia today.
If you make lots of money in your state, it didn't happen magically. The state provided security, healthcare, education for you from money they collected from your parents taxes. These taxes must be returned to the state when you grow up and start working for your children. Its amazing for me to acknowledge today how typical Americans really "think". Like if they have no responsibility of their government they vote in, or their own fellow American citizens.
 
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Robert Nozick? That perky Jew! Btw, I am a hidden antisemite, despite openly being a Muslim Zionist! :D
Radical influences from these Jewish American thinkers luckily do not reach European soil, or we would have all be following uncontrolled, unchecked and unbalanced free-market capitalism like US! :)

I am confounded and disappointed by this. I have never even implied that you are anti-Semitic, and if we've disagreed on the Israel/Palestine issue, I have at least acknowledged that your position is reasonable, even if I cannot agree with it. I have never criticized your thinking on a religious level, and in fact, I was quite specific in saying that I regarded your position as a European one, not a Muslim one.

I don't understand what Robert Nozick's religion has to do with this discussion, and even if you were being sarcastic here for the benefit of others, I don't regard the introduction of that detail as appropriate. I hope we can leave religion out of our future discussions.


If you make lots of money in your state, it didn't happen magically. The state provided security, healthcare, education for you from money they collected from your parents taxes. These taxes must be returned to the state when you grow up and start working for your children. Its amazing for me to acknowledge today how typical Americans really "think". Like if they have no responsibility of their government they vote in, or their own fellow American citizens.

You must forgive me for skipping the rest, as our disagreement there stems from different philosophies of life, and we will not be able to convince each other. But the statement you made in the paragraph above is patently and provably false. The funding for the police was never a loan by the government to me which must be repaid. It was paid for by my parents' taxes. I pay for it now (and much, much more) with my own taxes. Any shortfall of funding is paid from my taxes as interest to the debt run up by the previous generation; I do not owe anything to anyone, because I am not responsible for running up debt--I pay far more in taxes than I receive in government benefits, even considering my proportionate share of public goods like the military. That said, I believe the police (and the army, and the courts, and national infrastructure, and the treasury) are one of the few legitimate functions of the state for which taxation could be justified. Healthcare and education are not legitimate functions of the state, so no, I am not ethnically obligated to fund those.

The basic asymmetry should be easy to understand. When the entrepreneur fails, he fails alone. But when he succeeds, the federal government, the state government, the local government, the unions, the environmentalists, the regulators--they all take their cut. And that's on top of the services that I must pay for directly for which I derive actual personal benefit. No, there's nothing ethical about this "shared responsibility," not from my perspective.

I have voted against these abhorrent policies for years, but because of majority rule, my interests are not represented well in the government. I'm surprised, based on the arguments you have made in some other threads, that you would condone the supremacy of popularity over ethics in this case. Popularity does not equate to ethical behavior, so even in a polity of 10 people, if there are 9 people receiving government benefits and one chump taxpayer funding it all, that does not make such behavior ethical.

I'll let you have the last word, if you wish. I've basically said everything I have to say on this topic.
 
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