Punjab to establish 1,200MW gas power plant

[SoulSpokesman]

Accountant sb,

Sorry for having prejudged you.

The worry about Thar Coal is what Niaz sb says about it. That the grade of coal is too poor for thermal power generation. If what he says is true, then any investment in Thar Coal mines or any plant which proposes to use Thar Coal as fuel ends up as a dud investment. Of course, if Niaz sb is misinformed about the Thar Coal and that indeed it is of thermal grade then you are correct.

Unfortunately, sitting in Gurgaon, India, I cant possibly say which of you has got the facts right. Lets hope the decision makers of Pakistan have the right facts.

Regards

 

[The Accountant]

Accountant sb,

Sorry for having prejudged you.

The worry about Thar Coal is what Niaz sb says about it. That the grade of coal is too poor for thermal power generation. If what he says is true, then any investment in Thar Coal mines or any plant which proposes to use Thar Coal as fuel ends up as a dud investment. Of course, if Niaz sb is misinformed about the Thar Coal and that indeed it is of thermal grade then you are correct.

Unfortunately, sitting in Gurgaon, India, I cant possibly say which of you has got the facts right. Lets hope the decision makers of Pakistan have the right facts.

Regards

I agree with Mr. Niaz that quality of Thar Coal is low and it is comparatively expensive than imported coal but if it is cheaper than other sources which we are using (like crude oil) and cheaper than average cost of producing electricity then why not try this ?

On Mr. Niaz opinion that Thar Coal is not feasible Pakistan's experts are divided but for me investment by Pakistan's most professional and biggest business conglomerate (Engro Group) and by test well operated by Nuclear Scientist Samar Mubarak Mand is more of more weight ... As per his interview, he has already demonstrated that gasification of thar coal to make coal gas is possible due to soft nature of the coal, on the other hand, Engro is extracting the coal through mining and will start electricity production in 2019 ...

If these two are trusting on Thur coal who are the biggest authorities within their field then why to listen to someone else ?

So I agree with Mr. Niaz again that it has challenges of it owns but all these challenges are being highlighted by oil and gas mafia as it will result in decline in demand of oil and its prices ... We have to learn from Shale gas where technology improvement has moved US from one of the largest importer of crude oil to one of the largest exporter ... We have to look at the bigger picture rather than some short term benefit of providing electricity before elections and thus putting Pakistan into another commitment of importing fuel for next 30 years ...

 

[niaz]

All the published data about the analysis of Thar lignite indicates that Thar coal has 44% moisture & only 20% carbon content.

Anyone who is familiar with fuel for coal fired power plants will know that you cannot use coal with 44% moisture. Standard limit for moisture in the coal for power generation is between 10 to 20%. Thar coal has to be processed before it can be used.

Normally hot flue gasses from the power plant itself are used to dry the lignite. Modern method for drying lignite is a stationary fluidized bed with low expansion. The fluidized bed is heated by low-pressure steam or, depending on the process variant, by recompressed vapour: this is the recycled vapour that emerges when drying lignite. End result is fuel with moisture content of some 12%.

I have never claimed to be Mr ‘Know all’ and I am also often wrong. I wish I was a true ‘hot shot’ and could develop a way to use unprocessed lignite as fuel. I would then be a multi-millionaire enjoying the fruits of my riches at the French Riviera instead of scratching a modest living as a consultant.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Accountant sb,

UGC is still an unproven technology both on account of process stability, cost economics and last but not the least environmental hazards.

Regards

 

[The Accountant]

All the published data about the analysis of Thar lignite indicates that Thar coal has 44% moisture & only 20% carbon content.

Anyone who is familiar with fuel for coal fired power plants will know that you cannot use coal with 44% moisture. Standard limit for moisture in the coal for power generation is between 10 to 20%. Thar coal has to be processed before it can be used.

Normally hot flue gasses from the power plant itself are used to dry the lignite. Modern method for drying lignite is a stationary fluidized bed with low expansion. The fluidized bed is heated by low-pressure steam or, depending on the process variant, by recompressed vapour: this is the recycled vapour that emerges when drying lignite. End result is fuel with content of some 12%.

I have never claimed to be Mr ‘Know all’ and I am also often wrong. I wish I was a true ‘hot shot’ and could develop a way to use unprocessed lignite as fuel. I would then be a multi-millionaire enjoying the fruits of my riches at the French Riviera instead of scratching a modest living as a consultant.

Sir I respect your opinion and apologize if I say something harsh ... My based on putting reliance on Engro and Dr. Samar Muabarak Mand ... I have seen the feasibility studies ... Lets agree to disagree

 

[Kabira]

Regarding delay in return of coal project ... the projects which started commercial minning in 2016 will start initial production in 2019 ... last i heard that NS was claiming that installation of coal power plant in 2 years was some remarkable achievement ... so with a differnece of just one year you want to keep outflow of resources from your country to others whereas keeping the same in your country could of provided the job to local people nd boast the local economy ...

Thar coal will reach 2000MW by 2023, by that time demand will be over 30,000MW. Now upfront tariff has been decreased around 20% which is still higher then what other countries offer. Let's see if someone come to invest.

Pakistan isn’t stopping anyone to set plants in Thar. In fact if someone want they can start working on 5000MW plants right now which is limit set by new tariff which expires in 2 years.

Current crisis will not end with Thar, we will have to wait decades. Maybe if work started in 2006 when it was getting clear that energy shortages are around the corner.

 

[The Accountant]

Accountant sb,

UGC is still an unproven technology both on account of process stability, cost economics and last but not the least environmental hazards.

Regards

Sir I am putting my bet on Dr Samar Mubarak ... I am sure he is more capable than any of us ...

https://www.dawn.com/news/1338048

Thar coal will reach 2000MW by 2023, by that time demand will be over 30,000MW. Now upfront tariff has been decreased around 20% which is still higher then what other countries offer. Let's see if someone come to invest.

Pakistan isn’t stopping anyone to set plants in Thar. In fact if someone want they can start working on 5000MW plants right now which is limit set by new tariff which expires in 2 years.

Not in 2023 but in 2021 ...

You are ignoring that it was started in 2016 only ...

A project like this which involves billion of dollars and technology developments cannot be left over in private sector ...

Brothers you are not getting my point ,,, I am agreeing its techinically difficult, its costly than other coal based project but it is the way to get cheap electricity from Pakistan resources to to correct balance of payment ... Private sector will not show interest as such type of risk can only be taken by governments and highger the risks higher the retrun ... Why there are no investments in dams by private sectors ? Why it is always governments who undertake the responsibility of constructing dams and nuclear energy ? Becoz it involves huge investment, return is delay and risks are high ,,, but is there any better source of energy other than dams ?

we are making strategic mistakes by not setting our priorities right ... had we prioritized thar coal 6 to 8 years back results would have been different but still we are in limbo and not putting thar coal on priority ... Gov has to come forward and invest in R&D to utilize this energy source ... Relying on private sector to invest is a national crime ...

 

[Kabira]

Accountant sb,

UGC is still an unproven technology both on account of process stability, cost economics and last but not the least environmental hazards.

Regards

Dr Samar is charlatan who have wasted public money without any result. These people toke advantage of chronic shortages and wasted everyone time and of Pakistan.

This is why Nawaz came up with CPEC and convinced China to invest in actual power plants. Then gas prices tanked and Pakistan decided to set up gas plants on imported LNG along with dirty coal.

Sir I am putting my bet on Dr Samar Mubarak ... I am sure he is more capable than any of us ...

https://www.dawn.com/news/1338048


Not in 2023 but in 2021 ...

You are ignoring that it was started in 2016 only ...

A project like this which involves billion of dollars and technology developments cannot be left over in private sector ...

Brothers you are not getting my point ,,, I am agreeing its techinically difficult, its costly than other coal based project but it is the way to get cheap electricity from Pakistan resources to to correct balance of payment ... Private sector will not show interest as such type of risk can only be taken by governments and highger the risks higher the retrun ... Why there are no investments in dams by private sectors ? Why it is always governments who undertake the responsibility of constructing dams and nuclear energy ? Becoz it involves huge investment, return is delay and risks are high ,,, but is there any better source of energy other than dams ?

we are making strategic mistakes by not setting our priorities right ... had we prioritized thar coal 6 to 8 years back results would have been different but still we are in limbo and not putting thar coal on priority ... Gov has to come forward and invest in R&D to utilize this energy source ... Relying on private sector to invest is a national crime ...

Not 2021 but 2023 in best case scenario. Atm work have only started on 660MW. Maybe if work started in 2006 but right now to end shoratages Pakistan need plants from many other sources including gas. Also 70% of electricity is consumed in punjab alone, you need plants near load centes.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Accountant sb,

My based on putting reliance on Engro and Dr. Samar Muabarak Mand

That is not a very good argument, sir! The world is littered with big name companies which made wrong bets on raw materials, energy and technology and came to grief.

Incidentally, the first time I heard of the Thar Coal was c. 2007 from my dear friend Prof Riazul Haq sb, on a now defunct website called chowk.com. According to that article, now lost to posterity, Pakistan was slated to become the next KSA.

Regards

 

[The Accountant]

Accountant sb,

My based on putting reliance on Engro and Dr. Samar Muabarak Mand

That is not a very good argument, sir! The world is littered with big name companies which made wrong bets on raw materials, energy and technology and came to grief.

Incidentally, the first time I heard of the Thar Coal was c. 2007 from my dear friend Prof Riazul Haq sb, on a now defunct website called chowk.com. According to that article, now lost to posterity, Pakistan was slated to become the next KSA.

Regards

And yet first commercial minning started in 2016 ,,, why wasting 10 years when initial estimates were already there in 2017 ... if we had set the priority right we should have been able to start minning in next 3 to 4 years ...

If you are rejecting claims of Engro and Dr. Samar Mubarakmand then I can reject claim of others ,,, it is matter of opinion and only time can tell who is correct ...

@Tesky Sir that is my point why not we started in 2007? and why only provincial gov and private sector is working on it ? a project of this magnitude cannot be financed by provincial gov ??? we should have diverted our resources here to get permanent solution but still we are not diverting infact we have reduced the tariff which is not a good sign ... Even if expensive (which is not in comparison to imported gas and crude oil) this source is beneficial as the dividends will remain within Pakistan ...

Why we are still working on 2000 MWs only ... we should have worked on all 6 blocks and shsould have planned to get atleast 10K MW in next 5 to 8 years

 

[Kabira]

Accountant sb,

My based on putting reliance on Engro and Dr. Samar Muabarak Mand

That is not a very good argument, sir! The world is littered with big name companies which made wrong bets on raw materials, energy and technology and came to grief.

Incidentally, the first time I heard of the Thar Coal was c. 2007 from my dear friend Prof Riazul Haq sb, on a now defunct website called chowk.com. According to that article, now lost to posterity, Pakistan was slated to become the next KSA.

Regards

Thar coal quality is bit better then which India uses for power generation across the border, but just bit better. If I remember correctly heating value of Thar coal is 2700 vs 2600 for Indian.

And yet first commercial minning started in 2016 ,,, why wasting 10 years when initial estimates were already there in 2017 ... if we had set the priority right we should have been able to start minning in next 3 to 4 years ...

If you are rejecting claims of Engro and Dr. Samar Mubarakmand then I can reject claim of others ,,, it is matter of opinion and only time can tell who is correct ...

@Tesky Sir that is my point why not we started in 2007? and why only provincial gov and private sector is working on it ? a project of this magnitude cannot be financed by provincial gov ??? we should have diverted our resources here to get permanent solution but still we are not diverting infact we have reduced the tariff which is not a good sign ... Even if expensive (which is not in comparison to imported gas and crude oil) this source is beneficial as the dividends will remain within Pakistan ...

Why we are still working on 2000 MWs only ... we should have worked on all 6 blocks and shsould have planned to get atleast 10K MW in next 5 to 8 years

$35b power plants are being set up in CPEC in few years. If Pakistan had this amount of spare money then Bhasha dam would have been completed by now.

Lower tariff is still higher then what others offer. Pakistani consumers can’t afford expensive energy.

anyway update

 

[The Accountant]

Thar coal quality is bit better then which India uses for power generation across the border, but just bit better. If I remember correctly heating value of Thar coal is 2700 vs 2600 for Indian.



$35b power plants are being set up in CPEC in few years. If Pakistan had this amount of spare money then Bhasha dam would have been completed by now.

Lower tariff is still higher then what others offer. Pakistani consumers can’t afford expensive energy.

anyway update

Sir i am sure after 5 years down the line person like and me will be discussing that its too late thar coal development should have been start developing in 2017 ... sir we should start working on developing dams and local indegenous resources on emergency basis
..

Regarding thar coal here is the catch ... thar coal is only slightly expensive from other imported energy sources but whatever we spend on thar coal will mostly retain in local economy hence creating local industries and local jobs reducing imports ...so for a evonomy as a whole will be much more beneficial ... furthermore even if expensive it can be used to replace much more expensive crude oil which is still almost double of thar coal ...

 

[Bouncer]

instead of scratching a modest living as a consultant

Good one.

 

[Clutch]

By 2018-19 it will be around 35GW. and 50 GW will be by 2022-23. At that time we will have 2-3 Hyrdro Pwoer plant and Nuclear Plants ready.



I thi its the time e should start paying taxes and then start asking the govt where they are spending it. When it self we are thief so of course our leader will be thieves too.

Pakistanis when their own corruption is brought to question...

Who? Me? Corrupt?... nah!

 

[Major Sam]

Pakistanis when their own corruption is brought to question...

Who? Me? Corrupt?... nah!

the best ans by every common and poor theif is. la ganjay bhi to chor han. me jan bujh krthori kr rha hun. bs majboori ha meri.