PTM's Manzoor Pashteen granted bail in another 3 sedition cases

[Haris Ali2140]

Please convey this message to the advocate general and ask why sedition charge was dropped and why they are so woeful at building a case against those who, you have already deemed, are guilty.

In other democracies, they wouldn’t be charged with sedition for speech. And protestors wouldn’t be imprisoned and charged with sedition and/or terror for demonstrating against detention.

I can walk a short way from where I am right now, to Hyde Park Speakers’ corner, and loudly proclaim FAR more provocative anti-state rhetoric than this. I won’t have my voice silenced, let alone be detained and charged.

That’s because I’m currently in an actual functioning democracy and not a hybrid facade.



This is not what the advocate general has said, his mantra is “No one should say anything against the state”. This is completely unconstitutional.


These protestors were protesting the detention of Pashteen. And they were arrested on sedition for their protest, nothing else.

Protesting another person’s detention is not incitement to violence. It’s basic free speech and freedom of assembly protected by every constitution in any democratic state in the world including the constitution of Pakistan.

This is ludicrous, and it’s easy to see why courts have no choice but to dismiss this unconstitutional detention.

Different countries different threats. Go to same park and chant Allah u Akbar and see the results.

 

[Areesh]

Please convey this message to the advocate general and ask why sedition charge was dropped and why they are so woeful at building a case against those who, you have already deemed, are guilty.

In other democracies, they wouldn’t be charged with sedition for speech. And protestors wouldn’t be imprisoned and charged with sedition and/or terror for demonstrating against detention.

I can walk a short way from where I am right now, to Hyde Park Speakers’ corner, and loudly proclaim FAR more provocative anti-state rhetoric than this. I won’t have my voice silenced, let alone be detained and charged.

Pakistani state is soft and weak. So it acts like one

That doesn't mean that you start giving certificates of innocence to ethnofascists and racists

They deserve to be behind the bars for their hate speech and their death threats

I don't what democracy you live in because hate speech and death threats are not allowed in any democracy including the one that you show in your flags

 

[That Guy]

Granted bail on everything, the local courts are just inept.

Not really, it was pretty obvious this was gonna happen.

They had no real excuse to keep him in jail, if we're gonna be honest.

I know you already know this, but it's still worth repeating for everyone else who doesn't; bail doesn't mean he's been acquitted, rather he's still very much on trial, and could go back to jail, if he gives the courts an excuse to do so. Bail just means that he doesn't have to be in jail, while the trial take place.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Please convey this message to the advocate general and ask why sedition charge was dropped and why they are so woeful at building a case against those who, you have already deemed, are guilty.

In other democracies, they wouldn’t be charged with sedition for speech. And protestors wouldn’t be imprisoned and charged with sedition and/or terror for demonstrating against detention.

I can walk a short way from where I am right now, to Hyde Park Speakers’ corner, and loudly proclaim FAR more provocative anti-state rhetoric than this. I won’t have my voice silenced, let alone be detained and charged.

That’s because I’m currently in an actual functioning democracy and not a hybrid facade.



This is not what the advocate general has said, his mantra is “No one should say anything against the state”. This is completely unconstitutional.


These protestors were protesting the detention of Pashteen. And they were arrested on sedition for their protest, nothing else.

Protesting another person’s detention is not incitement to violence. It’s basic free speech and freedom of assembly protected by every constitution in any democratic state in the world including the constitution of Pakistan.

This is ludicrous, and it’s easy to see why courts have no choice but to dismiss this unconstitutional detention.

They were detained because an elected member of parliament was shaming other ethnicities by calling them degrading names.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Different countries different threats. Go to same park and chant Allah u Akbar and see the results.

You can do that too, nothing will happen to you. The line between incitement for violence and legitimate protest is blurry. But in Pakistan it doesn’t take much to be picked up by benevolent agencies or be illegally detained for legitimate expression of speech and protest.

They were detained because an elected member of parliament was shaming other ethnicities by calling them degrading names.

So it is now illegal to protest if the protesters are associated with sedition by proxy?

Meaning if for example: you were detained on suspicion of anti state sedition because you said some objectionable things. If your family protests your detention, they should all be detained, charged with sedition and terror related offences too?

Pakistani state is soft and weak. So it acts like one

That doesn't mean that you start giving certificates of innocence to ethnofascists and racists

They deserve to be behind the bars for their hate speech and their death threats

I don't what democracy you live in because hate speech and death threats are not allowed in any democracy including the one that you show in your flags

You and I have philosophical and moralistic disagreements on political matters right? Let’s leave that aside for a second.

People have been arrested on hate speech and charged with incitement to violence, conspiracy etc. If their supporters, apologists, friends/family protest their detention on as yet unproven charges. HOW can their detention for protesting or be justified legally?

Surely you see that this is a blatant violation for free speech, it’s anti democratic. And as for terror related charges, it’s ludicrous.

I used to think and react exactly as you are right now. The truth is, this sort of limiting space for aggrieved people to protest or change their circumstances is what leads to internal strife, we saw it in East Pakistan.

And I fully agree with you. If Pashteen is proven in a court to have incited violence. If he is tried. And/or evidence is presented that he has received orders or funding or tangible support from foreign agencies and is working at their behest on ill intent to the state. Then he should go to jail.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

So it is now illegal to protest if the protesters are associated with sedition by proxy?

Meaning if for example: you were detained on suspicion of anti state sedition because you said some objectionable things. If your family protests your detention, they should all be detained, charged with sedition and terror related offences too?

If I incite violence and then get arresred then my supporters come out and threaten that they will drag the authorities on roads so definitely they will be arreated.

 

[Jungibaaz]

If I incite violence and then get arresred then my supporters come out and threaten that they will drag the authorities on roads so definitely they will be arreated.

Did you see the protest? There were videos of it that belied the police claims. I disagree with both the principle you’ve stretched your moralistic argument to and the facts. Even the prosecution dropped the charges of sedition. And they were all just released.

Truth is, you are just claiming this because it’s hypothetical. If you were arrested on charges, and family protested, you would see their detention on protest as a flagrant violation of free speech. I don’t believe you’d react like this in an actual situation as you’ve done dismissively here

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Did you see the protest? There were videos of it that belied the police claims. I disagree with both the principle you’ve stretched your moralistic argument to and the facts. Even the prosecution dropped the charges of sedition. And they were all just released.

Truth is, you are just claiming this because it’s hypothetical. If you were arrested on charges, and family protested, you would see their detention on protest as a flagrant violation of free speech. I don’t believe you’d react like this in an actual situation as you’ve done dismissively here

There are videos of the protests. Dawar later tried to justify it.

 

[Jungibaaz]

There are videos of the protests. Dawar later tried to justify it.

I have seen some footage.

 

[Areesh]

People have been arrested on hate speech and charged with incitement to violence, conspiracy etc. If their supporters, apologists, friends/family protest their detention on as yet unproven charges. HOW can their detention for protesting or be justified legally?

Going by that logic people can also protest for hate speeches by TLP leadership and you won't have no problem with it too?

The truth is, this sort of limiting space for aggrieved people to protest or change their circumstances is what leads to internal strife, we saw it in East Pakistan.

Don't give me that East Pakistan BS man

East Pakistan happened for reasons far different than this PTM drama

Also East Pakistan was handled in the similar manner where Agartala Conspiracy planners weren't punished by the same courts and the whole country had to pay the price for it

 

[Jungibaaz]

Going by that logic people can also protest for hate speeches by TLP leadership and you won't have no problem with it too?

You’ve asked me this before. I have no problem with it as long as it is peaceful protest and not a riot.

Don't give me that East Pakistan BS man

Why? And what part of it is bs?

I’m trying to respond civilly to you, you could oblige and not get angry every time you reply. This is what I meant by moralistic and emotional debating.

East Pakistan happened for reasons far different than this PTM drama

Also East Pakistan was handled in the similar manner where Agartala Conspiracy planners weren't punished by the same courts and the whole country had to pay the price for it

We lost East Pakistan due to ineffective rule, not giving them political representation and devolved power. And then screwing them out of an election victory. Searchlight sealed the fate. We screwed Nizamuddin, Fazlul Haq, and Suhrawardy. I say ‘we’, I mean Ayub and west Pakistan establishment. Just like governor generals perverted the order of the republic. Ayub’s actions stomped Fatima Jinnah’s and opposition hopes of democracy in 1964 by brutally rigging elections and smearing opponents. We did equivalent injustices in Bengal.

Ask yourself how it is in a republic where all are meant to be equal citizens that a population of a majority (as Bengal was) had to fought for independence from a minority in West Pakistan.

You honestly think a larger crackdown would have stopped 71? It’s the exact opposite that is true. If we had a proper functioning democracy post-Liaquat Ali Khan. And a democracy with a good constitution, we might have not seen seditious and separatist politics in East Pakistan. Heck even in the 60s if we acquiesced and gave them some devolution, the republic might have lasted.

Again, it might not have lasted forever. But we might have had less bloodshed and war of independence in the manner we had it.

 

[Areesh]

You’ve asked me this before. I have no problem with it as long as it is peaceful protest and not a riot.

Then clearly you want state of Pakistan to give freedom of hate speech and secessionist which can never be given by any country

Why? And what part of it is bs?

Every part of it is BS

PTM is a manufactured drama given oxygen by "well wishers" of Pakistan like you

Pashtuns can never be matched to East Pakistan. No matter how you take it

We lost East Pakistan due to ineffective rule, not giving them political representation and devolved power. And then screwing them out of an election victory. Searchlight sealed the fate. We screwed Nizamuddin, Fazlul Haq, and Suhrawardy. I say ‘we’, I mean Ayub and west Pakistan establishment. Just like governor generals perverted the order of the republic. Ayub’s actions stomped Fatima Jinnah’s and opposition hopes of democracy in 1964 by brutally rigging elections and smearing opponents. We did equivalent injustices in Bengal.

We lost East Pakistan because we didn't punish and eliminated the planners of Agartala conspiracy

Nearly more than half of federal cabinet is pashtun. PM is pashtun. Dozens and dozens of highest officers in bureaucracy and military are pashtun. They literally own the country. What more do they want?

That is why I say don't bring in East Pakistan BS since situations are far different in every manner

You honestly think a larger crackdown would have stopped 71? It’s the exact opposite that is true. If we had a proper functioning democracy post-Liaquat Ali Khan. And a democracy with a good constitution, we might have not seen seditious and separatist politics in East Pakistan. Heck even in the 60s if we acquiesced and gave them some devolution, the republic might have lasted.

The republic didn't last because the state acted week to curb ethnofascism and secessionist groups

That is the one and only reason for that.

 

[Imad.Khan]

@Areesh @Jungibaaz

My uncle told me this, he was a major and was sent to "East Pakistan" in 1970. This is the time when the military had decided to replace Bengalis with Pukhtoons and Punjabis. He told me that he saw himself how West Pakistanis treated the locals, they were like 2nd class citizens in their own country.

@Areesh Please tell me, would you not revolt if you are treated unfairly or discriminated against by people that are supposed to be equal to you? Irrespective of any conspiracies, they would not have any support from the locals had they been treated fairly. However in saying that "East Pakistan" in my opinion was never feasible anyways, they were just too far away.

As for PTM, apart from the time of the killing of Naqeebullah Mehsud by Zardari's pet Rao Anwar (when even I and many of my friends were supporting them) their support is dwindling and is now only concentrated around a few districts of ex-FATA. The only people that you see supporting them on social media are ANPs & PkMAPs people after they got out-voted by PTI.

I do agree with you about eliminating the threats as soon as they appear and Pakistan's history is full of these snakes getting away or worse actually being supported by our establishment.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Please try to understand my arguments, before responding incorrectly, and try not to react emotionally to my posts.

These emotionally charged replies are leading you to conclusions about my views which I have not drawn. Try to calmly look at exactly what I am saying and inspect it, then respond. Thanks.

Partly why I didn’t want to respond again this time is because of the sheer volume of accidental or intentional strawmanning of my actual views.

Then clearly you want state of Pakistan to give freedom of hate speech and secessionist which can never be given by any country

I can prove you wrong on this one. Here in the UK we have a party called the SNP. Scottish Nationalist Party. They have for a very long time openly campaigned for secession.

They forced the 2014 independence referendum. And today they are the largest party in vote share in Scotland and basically control the entire Scottish devolved assembly. So you’re wrong, clearly it is allowed in some democracies, even if not all.

And I’m not even saying that secession should be allowed in political discourse too freely. We should ideally allow people to air their views and give them space for a discussion so that they aren’t driven to secession. East Pakistan for example should have been treated better, and their leaders shouldn’t have been sidelined and repressed. We had several missed opportunities to address Bengali grievances before Mujib turned them towards secessionist policies. And even then, the crackdown worked tactically, MB were beaten into submission in mid 71. But it didn’t last, the rest is history.

Every part of it is BS

This is your opinion, but I asked for better clarification rather than repetition. So let’s see:

PTM is a manufactured drama given oxygen by "well wishers" of Pakistan like you

Manufactured by whom? People like me? Who am I in your view?

Now please don’t shy away from answering this. I would like a honest answer from you since you’ve made a claim.

In response, I won’t dismiss you as ‘people like you’. Because I used to think 100% like you. You can find those posts of mine still up on this forum. And the entire country has been programmed to think in a certain way and react to criticism of certain things in the way I used to and that you are now.

So please let me know. Who ‘manufactured’ PTM? And who exactly am I in this ‘people like you’? Thanks.

Pashtuns can never be matched to East Pakistan. No matter how you take it

I agree. The difference between then and now is huge too. Then we didn’t even know how bad it was until Dhaka fell. “All is well, all is well“, and all of a sudden Dhaka fell.

Also, I agree fully. The situation isn’t nearly as dire here. But can you accept that there are some ordinary patriotic tribals that have some legitimate grievances that they wish to raise?

I don’t think we’ll see any secessionist movement take hold in FATA. I’m drawing analogies between BD and now, not drawing equivalence. See the difference?

We lost East Pakistan because we didn't punish and eliminated the planners of Agartala conspiracy

Disagree. Without wishing to sound rude. Please do some more history checking and please do it with an open mind. Instead of Googling; “why I am right about east Pakistan secessionists”. And then placing another reply in which you’re arguing against positions that aren’t mine...

Just learn about what happened to Pakistan after LAK. Learn about the governor generals, about Ayub, One nation, the three Bengali leaders I talked about etc.

Nearly more than half of federal cabinet is pashtun. PM is pashtun. Dozens and dozens of highest officers in bureaucracy and military are pashtun. They literally own the country. What more do they want?

It’s not about Pashtuns. I can see your confusion and why you’re misunderstanding this. P in PTM stands for Pashtun, sure...

But ask a Pashtun man in Peshawar or Mardan, let alone Karachi/ISL, his view on all this. He will say there’s nothing wrong at all. Ask him about PTM and he’ll echo your sentiments.

By contrast.

Ask a tribal in Mohmand or Waziristan. Some of them will say that they are unhappy with army presence, checkposts and they want answers/investigations into enforced disappearances.

This is about specific issues. Not other irrelevant issues and moral arguments.

The republic didn't last because the state acted week to curb ethnofascism and secessionist groups

That is the one and only reason for that.

No need I think to reiterate my disagreement on our reading of history. But let me just clarify again, because this is another thing you’ve misunderstood about my view. I am not saying that we’re seeing another East Pakistan in FATA.

I’m saying we have the example of East Pakistan that tells us that army crackdowns and repression doesn’t work against some movements.

Yes it works against foreign funded miscreants, or militants like the TPP. Our army dealt with them in an exemplary way.

But our history should teach us to address grievances of civilians. Not allow army extra-judicial powers, which leads to enforced disappearances. PTM doesn’t matter. The ordinary tribals behind them need to be reconciled.

 

[ghazi52]

PTM's Manzoor Pashteen released from jail
Sirajuddin

February 25, 2020

Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement chief Manzoor Pashteen addresses party workers after being released from jail. — Photo by author
Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement (PTM) chief Manzoor Pashteen was released from Central Jail Dera Ismail Khan on Tuesday, confirmed his lawyer and PTM MNA Mohsin Dawar.

Speaking to DawnNewsTV, Pashteen's lawyer, Farhad Afridi, stated that the PTM chief's bail applications in the remaining two sedition cases registered against him had been accepted by a district court in DI Khan on Monday.

"A total of eight cases were registered against Pashteen in DI Khan and Tank districts. After completing the necessary legal formalities, he [Pashteen] was released from jail," he added.

Meanwhile, PTM MNA Mohsin Dawar confirmed that Pashteen had been released.

A large number of PTM workers turned out to receive Pashteen. Speaking to party workers, Pashteen thanked his supporters for showing up. “We are not among those who are scared by jails. We will stand by all those who will stand for humanity.

"We have risen up against slavery. We will rebel against all forms of repression to fight in humanity's favour," he said.

On February 15, a sessions court in Tank district had granted bail to Pashteen in two cases of sedition while he was also granted bail in a similar case by a Dera Ismail Khan court, PTM lawyers had confirmed.

Prior to this, the PTM chief's bail applications in two other cases — also pertaining to sedition — were approved by a DI Khan court on February 8.

Pashteen was arrested on January 27 in Peshawar's Shaheen Town and sent to Peshawar Central Jail on a 14-day judicial remand by a magistrate.

A day after his arrest, a Peshawar court had rejected the PTM leader's bail plea and ordered his transfer to DI Khan.

Initially, Pashteen was arrested in a case registered against him at DI Khan's City Police Station under sections 506 (punishment for criminal intimidation), 153-A (promoting enmity between different groups), 120-B (punishment of criminal conspiracy), 124 (sedition), and 123-A (condemning the creation of the country and advocating the abolishment of its sovereignty) of the Pakistan Penal Code.

According to one FIR registered on January 18, a copy of which is available with Dawn.com, Pashteen and other PTM leaders had attended a gathering that day in Dera Ismail Khan where the PTM chief had allegedly said that the 1973 Constitution violated basic human rights.

The FIR added that Pashteen also made derogatory remarks about the state.