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Psychology of stealth

Agreed that F-22 is a very potent aircraft, still, there is a bit of empty chest thumping going on here.

1. If the AWACS tells you there is an F-22 in front of you, the correct thing is to shove a BVR down its throat and then evade. As already discussed on the thread, there is no such thing as a completely stealthy aircraft, the nearer the aircraft gets to the radar, the easier it is to detect. With the BVR's terminal active radar, and ability to even follow jamming signals, it is the right weapon to use, even though it is not guaranteed to be 100% effective. Yes, a pilot facing it the first time without prior briefing will be unnerved, but a pilot armed with this knowledge should do quite well.

2. Granted 1 above with a BVR of 100+ km is not going to be very effective. But then the Chinese VLRAAM comes into play. This actually has the USAF concerned. And its not only because of its ability to fly 400+ km in a straight line, but because it has longer legs to hunt for a longer time and get close enough to F-22 for its terminal active radar to be effective.

I can see how you guys spread the psychological advantage in your favor :D

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35...tm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-ti

An F-35 pilot explains why Russia and China's counterstealth can't stop him

  • Ever since the US used F-117s in 1991 to rock Baghdad, at the time one of the world's most defended cities, Soviets and other potential US adversaries have been studying up on how to counter stealth jets.

    Later, over Serbia, an F-117 was shot down, forever souring the image of so-called invisible aircraft that have for decades been on top of the US Air Force's agenda.

    Today, Russia and China have built impressive arrays of very high frequency, or VHF, and other integrated radars that can spot even the US's most advanced and stealthy jets like the F-22 and the F-35 under the right circumstances.
  • While many have rushed to declare stealth a fruitless and expensive path for the US Air Force to walk, retired Marine Maj. Dan Flatley told Business Insider why pilots of America's most expensive weapons system weren't afraid of Russian or Chinese counterstealth.

    "Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object — and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s — doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

    "We're not trying to prevent every aspect of that chain, just snap one of those links," Flatley said.

    So while an infrared radar could spot an F-35 and give enemy pilots an idea of where it is, it couldn't track it or target it with a missile. This means that the systems Russia and China have spent millions developing provide only a tiny glimpse of the F-35 — systems that may be sunk costs in the grand scheme of things.

    "I don't need to stop everything all the time," Flatley said of the kill chain. "I just need to make you unable to finish what you've already invested tons of time and money and effort in trying to shoot me down."

    20278731994730232d6d5k.jpg
    Lockheed Martin

    "That's the thing people don't understand," Flatley said. "They think we're saying we're invisible to everyone all the time, at all bandwidths and energy levels. ... That's not what we're saying."

    Flatley says F-35 pilots joke that only Wonder Woman has an invisible jet. The reality is that the F-35 is a huge piece of flying metal and alloy — a radar pointed at the right place at the right time will definitely spot it, but good luck shooting it down.

    Meanwhile, as the enemy shoots radiation to scour the skies for any trace of the F-35, the F-35 sees all of those emissions and can pinpoint the air defenses and enemy planes.

    Where legacy planes had to choose between lethality and survivability on a mission, the F-35 can do four, 16, or even 32 things at a time, meaning that while air and ground threats look for the stealth jet, the F-35 can drop bombs to smash them, according to Flatley.

    "We're extraordinarily confident in what we believe the performance of this jet is, and we have a lot of data and material to back that stuff up," Flatley said.

    308408399754f9b53e013k.jpg
    An F-35Bs takes off from the USS America. Lockheed Martin

    So while the Russians' propaganda may boast that they can see F-35s, it may be a response to a platform that has rendered parts of their battle plan irrelevant.

    The F-35 was built to penetrate the most guarded airspaces in the world and get the job done. While the enemy hasn't been standing still, making great progress toward countering the F-35, Flatley says he's sure the US can carry out its mission on its terms.

    "The expectation is that the F-35 will operate in a scenario against air and surface defense systems — and that's an expectation that the American taxpayer and public should have," Flatley said. He also acknowledged the effort the US has put behind the F-35 as a stealth penetrator and was resolute in that "we're not going to waste it."
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35...tm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-ti

An F-35 pilot explains why Russia and China's counterstealth can't stop him

  • Ever since the US used F-117s in 1991 to rock Baghdad, at the time one of the world's most defended cities, Soviets and other potential US adversaries have been studying up on how to counter stealth jets.

    Later, over Serbia, an F-117 was shot down, forever souring the image of so-called invisible aircraft that have for decades been on top of the US Air Force's agenda.

    Today, Russia and China have built impressive arrays of very high frequency, or VHF, and other integrated radars that can spot even the US's most advanced and stealthy jets like the F-22 and the F-35 under the right circumstances.
  • While many have rushed to declare stealth a fruitless and expensive path for the US Air Force to walk, retired Marine Maj. Dan Flatley told Business Insider why pilots of America's most expensive weapons system weren't afraid of Russian or Chinese counterstealth.

    "Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object — and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s — doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

    "We're not trying to prevent every aspect of that chain, just snap one of those links," Flatley said.

    So while an infrared radar could spot an F-35 and give enemy pilots an idea of where it is, it couldn't track it or target it with a missile. This means that the systems Russia and China have spent millions developing provide only a tiny glimpse of the F-35 — systems that may be sunk costs in the grand scheme of things.

    "I don't need to stop everything all the time," Flatley said of the kill chain. "I just need to make you unable to finish what you've already invested tons of time and money and effort in trying to shoot me down."

    20278731994730232d6d5k.jpg
    Lockheed Martin

    "That's the thing people don't understand," Flatley said. "They think we're saying we're invisible to everyone all the time, at all bandwidths and energy levels. ... That's not what we're saying."

    Flatley says F-35 pilots joke that only Wonder Woman has an invisible jet. The reality is that the F-35 is a huge piece of flying metal and alloy — a radar pointed at the right place at the right time will definitely spot it, but good luck shooting it down.

    Meanwhile, as the enemy shoots radiation to scour the skies for any trace of the F-35, the F-35 sees all of those emissions and can pinpoint the air defenses and enemy planes.

    Where legacy planes had to choose between lethality and survivability on a mission, the F-35 can do four, 16, or even 32 things at a time, meaning that while air and ground threats look for the stealth jet, the F-35 can drop bombs to smash them, according to Flatley.

    "We're extraordinarily confident in what we believe the performance of this jet is, and we have a lot of data and material to back that stuff up," Flatley said.

    308408399754f9b53e013k.jpg
    An F-35Bs takes off from the USS America. Lockheed Martin

    So while the Russians' propaganda may boast that they can see F-35s, it may be a response to a platform that has rendered parts of their battle plan irrelevant.

    The F-35 was built to penetrate the most guarded airspaces in the world and get the job done. While the enemy hasn't been standing still, making great progress toward countering the F-35, Flatley says he's sure the US can carry out its mission on its terms.

    "The expectation is that the F-35 will operate in a scenario against air and surface defense systems — and that's an expectation that the American taxpayer and public should have," Flatley said. He also acknowledged the effort the US has put behind the F-35 as a stealth penetrator and was resolute in that "we're not going to waste it."

I do wonder how much stealth the F-35 has once its external bays are loaded. The F-117 over Yugoslavia was shot exactly because they could detect the opening of its weapons bay. In its full stealth mode, the F-35 can only be effective in large numbers, making the kind of BVR attack I mentioned previously more successful.

As stealth technology proceeds, air defence is going to move to patrolling drones that can ID a threat not just with radar but also by getting a visual. That means they will need to be very cheap and deployed en masse to comprehensively cover a given area.
 
1. If the AWACS tells you there is an F-22 in front of you, the correct thing is to shove a BVR down its throat and then evade.
Sorry...But that is not how it works...

Your own sensor -- which includes the missile's -- must still be able to detect the F-22. However, when you can see the F-22 with YOUR OWN EYES but your sensor cannot get a radar lock...

http://www.acc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/202684/raptor-debuts-at-red-flag-dominates-skies/
"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."
...There is nothing you can do except to get closer and closer and closer and eventually you will get a radar lock.

So the reality is what I have been saying on this forum for yrs, that 'stealth' forces a seeker to transmit longer and at greater strength in trying to detect the 'stealthy' attacker, but the problem is that as you nears the F-22, your own transmissions will give you away and he will leave, thereby denying you the opportunity to test how close can you get to that 'stealthy' attacker. The article's theme is about the psychological stress that 'stealth' places upon its adversaries.

...there is no such thing as a completely stealthy aircraft...
I do not know why people keeping saying this.

The US never made an official statement to that effect.

I -- who explained the basic principles of radar detection and low radar observability better than anyone else on this forum -- never said anything to that effect.

...a pilot facing it the first time without prior briefing will be unnerved, but a pilot armed with this knowledge should do quite well.
No, there will be no 'quite well' about this. You are talking about the most experienced combat air force in the world -- US airpower.

What 'briefing' are you talking about ? Are basic radar principles supposed to comfort the pilot that all he has to do is get as close as possible to the F-22/F-35 while transmitting and all will be 'quite well' ?
 
Sorry...But that is not how it works...

Your own sensor -- which includes the missile's -- must still be able to detect the F-22. However, when you can see the F-22 with YOUR OWN EYES but your sensor cannot get a radar lock...

http://www.acc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/202684/raptor-debuts-at-red-flag-dominates-skies/

...There is nothing you can do except to get closer and closer and closer and eventually you will get a radar lock.

So the reality is what I have been saying on this forum for yrs, that 'stealth' forces a seeker to transmit longer and at greater strength in trying to detect the 'stealthy' attacker, but the problem is that as you nears the F-22, your own transmissions will give you away and he will leave, thereby denying you the opportunity to test how close can you get to that 'stealthy' attacker. The article's theme is about the psychological stress that 'stealth' places upon its adversaries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM#Interception_course_stage

AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built-in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an Infra-red search and track system, from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

In a world of network-centric warfare, why would anyone build limitations into the missile such that it is limited to firing based on the aircraft's own Radar only?

I do not know why people keeping saying this.

The US never made an official statement to that effect.

I -- who explained the basic principles of radar detection and low radar observability better than anyone else on this forum -- never said anything to that effect.

Actually, Russian battle commanders are claiming something even stronger

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201508141025736315-russia-s400-details/

“For the S-400 there is no such thing as “stealth” aircraft, the system will see it and will shoot it down,” an S-400 battery commander told Zvezda TV.

No, there will be no 'quite well' about this. You are talking about the most experienced combat air force in the world -- US airpower.

What 'briefing' are you talking about ? Are basic radar principles supposed to comfort the pilot that all he has to do is get as close as possible to the F-22/F-35 while transmitting and all will be 'quite well' ?

First of all, I have nowhere claimed that firing a BVR will lead to a definite kill. I am saying, the standard procedure to deal with a situation where an AWACS tells you 'there is an F-22 in front of you' would be to fire a BVR and then evade. You may get shot, but at least you go down trying. Once a pilot has onboarded this during training, he will not lose his nerves during an actual engagement, thus removing the psychological advantage.
 
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