PSLV-C44 launch January 24, 2019 from 23:10 hrs (IST)

[Goku-kun]

What peace?
Shimla Agreement clearly stated that Kashmir was now bilateral issue between India & Pakistan only and no third party had to be involved. Still, who rakes up the issue on every platform, from annual to environmental? Who started conflict in Kargil? Attack on Indian Parliament or 26/11? Who created Taliban?

You forgot to talk about 'Indus water treaty' that clearly briefed the distribution of river but currently you still put hurdles in our rivers violating the treaty and before Shimla agreement was an UN resolution and let's just say that if we don't involve any 3rd country than you will never free Kashmir because you have refused to come on talking table so we have to opt the other way.
Get your concepts cleared first than come and talk on these issues.Taliban is simply a group in Afghanistan whose objective is to eject US and every other foreign power from their land and rule their land themselves.
You are a prime example of 'ulta chor kotwal ko dante' and sorry because I couldn't find its english equivalent and so what will you say about kulbhoshan jhadav?

Means you finally stopped the comparing drama.

You said something and the message you replied me to was the answer of it so what's the drama.You are the one who said in your earlier post that we don't ensure our defence but are in a race in you and so in reply I said that we are ensuring it by having everything we need to counter you.

As of January 2019, population without excess to basic sanitation facilities in India was 1.4% compared to 12% of Pakistan. Pakistan needs more toilets than India.

India invests far bigger amount of budget on sanitation, healthcare, education & R&D and far lower on defence. Our total budget is large because our economy large and our economy is large because our population is large and steady but income keeps growing.

source?
As I see it you spend 50+billion dollars dude and that's not a small amount

Another point, Pakistan and India don't even have same method of estimations. Pakistan uses surveys only and hasn't been able to get count of its complete population or related statistics for last 3 decades. India has had complete census of every decade. So, comparison isn't fine.

Well, that's probably because you didn't faced the true terrorism which we did.

Not even once.

you are delusional and not just you but majority of indians.

They aren't often to open & spoil a thread where they should not be definitely. They often have a topic and stay on that instead of bringing isolation, peace talks and toilets in every discussion.

Well, if you talk legit than than you would be replied by appropriate words.We all can see your non-logical things so even layman is worthy to reply to you guys.

Making a small orbital launch vehicle doesn't need that much funds and Indians were having even more pathetic lives in 1969. It'll depend upon if tech is your own or sourced from overseas.

Well,I must inform you that I know in great detail about your SLV program and I have given a hint of it in my #2 post I think.

 

[Indx-techs]

You forgot to talk about 'Indus water treaty' that clearly briefed the distribution of river but currently you still put hurdles in our rivers violating the treaty and

India never violated IWT. 80% water was for Pakistan and 20% for India while India doesn't even utilize its own complete share and holds right to do any project till its share is left.
For Pakistan, problem isn't shortage of water but inefficient harvesting system. Most of water sent to Pakistan goes to Arabian sea as it is and if we leave more, more gonna get wasted.

If remove every project, nothing else is going to happen but your politicians will become speechless.

before Shimla agreement was an UN resolution

You never followed that.
https://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?OpenAgent&DS=S/RES/39(1948)&Lang=E
Conditions that were laid down were Pak had to pull out its kabali for entire Kashmir, India will ensure ceasefire, will have hold of full territory and then its India's responsibility to conduct plebiscite.

You didn't fulfill at first place, why are we supposed to?

and let's just say that if we don't involve any 3rd country than you will never free Kashmir because you have refused to come on talking table so we have to opt the other way.

After 90s insurgency, Kargil & Mumbai, you aren't supposed to complaint either.

Get your concepts cleared first than come and talk on these issues.Taliban is simply a group in Afghanistan whose objective is to eject US and every other foreign power from their land and rule their land themselves.

Taliban is an armed luditic group of idiots created jointly by US & Pakistan to serve their *interests" against USSR.

This group has caused civil war and destroyed the economy of Afghanistan, a country with some of world's largest reserves of precious metals and minerals and could have been a developed country otherwise.

You are a prime example of 'ulta chor kotwal ko dante' and sorry because I couldn't find its english equivalent and so what will you say about kulbhoshan jhadav?

Getting Balochistan out? India wanted to carve out free Balochistan along with Bangladesh. Even Yahya Khan wanted to fight further and we had already 5000kms square + from west Pakistan. But US intervened and we had to declare unilateral ceasefire.

If it happened, nobody would have been making it India vs Pakistan today.

You said something and the message you replied me to was the answer of it so what's the drama.You are the one who said in your earlier post that we don't ensure our defence but are in a race in you and so in reply I said that we are ensuring it by having everything we need to counter you.

Hope it helps.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1441844/smokers-corner-history-in-service

https://www.dawn.com/news/1437762

T'was an obsession to show that "our decision of secession was right" but Pakistan stopped being a regional power in 1971.

source?

http://swachhbharatmission.gov.in/sbmcms/index.htm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/the-needles-eye/cleaning-up-india-with-gandhiji/

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.ODFC.ZS

https://washwatch.org/en/countries-list/

As I see it you spend 50+billion dollars dude and that's not a small amount

50 billions is less than 2% of Indian Economy.

Well, that's probably because you didn't faced the true terrorism which we did.

May be cause our definitions are terrorists aren't selective.

you are delusional and not just you but majority of indians.

You're only good giving statements from perfection of Pakistan juvenile. Nothing better.

Well, if you talk legit than than you would be replied by appropriate words.We all can see your non-logical things so even layman is worthy to reply to you guys.

It's you who isn't able to do reasoning and just giving statement after statement. Not me.
After bumping thread with off topic rants & crying because a small rocket was going to throw 0.7 tonnes in orbit, do you actually think that you worth more than a layman?

Well,I must inform you that I know in great detail about your SLV program and I have given a hint of it in my #2 post I think.

Post whatever you have on SUPARCO thread and tag me please. I'd love to know about that damn bird which I'm waiting for since 2017. All talk and hot air backed by excuses on being smaller but no real substance.

Just like after testing implosion based nukes against thermonukes, having just 4 basic reactors against India's 26 HWRs, testing Nasr in response to Mangalyaan and declare their missile tech better than India after a few short range ballistic & cruise missiles, Pakistanis will declare themselves ahead of ISRO immediately after launching 50kg in 100 kilometers orbit.

 

[Śakra]

Why are you even engaging with that guy? His country can’t even make a 2-stroke engine and he is talking about making MIRV??? What a joke.

 

[Indx-techs]

Why are you even engaging with that guy?

What do you think? I login only for gems like him coz I won't find them anywhere else. A few Think Tanks are even more pathetic.

Anyways, let's keep it straight. He says that our tech is sourced from overseas while theirs is their own.
I say ours have initial IPR exchanges and rest by ourselves while Pakisani BM tech initiated from DF-11 missiles. Countries with BMs usually have SLVs.

1. Case I: Pakistan sourced its missile tech from China not SLV tech. That's why it couldn't conduct any orbital launch which is totally understable.
2. Case II: Pakistan's missile technology is homegrown. Still it couldn't develop any SLV. Means IQ of Pakistani Scientists is lower than their American, Russian, Chinese, European, Japanese, Indian, Iranian and Korean counterparts.

He can choose to agree with whichever one he finds suitable but shouldn't mix the two. Either Pakistanis didn't actually develop tech they have or they are exceptionally primitive that they could not develop at further.

 

[Goku-kun]

Why are you even engaging with that guy? His country can’t even make a 2-stroke engine and he is talking about making MIRV??? What a joke.

and have you maded a engine?
Vikas liquid fuel engine was developed from France's viking
kaveri and manik are being developed with help of france
renaming Turbomeca TM 333 to shakti for your dhuruv chopper wouldn't make it indigenous at all.
So again 'Ulta chor kotwal ko dante'.You indiots are prime example of these words.

India never violated IWT. 80% water was for Pakistan and 20% for India while India doesn't even utilize its own complete share and holds right to do any project till its share is left.
For Pakistan, problem isn't shortage of water but inefficient harvesting system. Most of water sent to Pakistan goes to Arabian sea as it is and if we leave more, more gonna get wasted.

If remove every project, nothing else is going to happen but your politicians will become speechless.

You never followed that.
https://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?OpenAgent&DS=S/RES/39(1948)&Lang=E
Conditions that were laid down were Pak had to pull out its kabali for entire Kashmir, India will ensure ceasefire, will have hold of full territory and then its India's responsibility to conduct plebiscite.

You didn't fulfill at first place, why are we supposed to?

After 90s insurgency, Kargil & Mumbai, you aren't supposed to complaint either.

Taliban is an armed luditic group of idiots created jointly by US & Pakistan to serve their *interests" against USSR.

This group has caused civil war and destroyed the economy of Afghanistan, a country with some of world's largest reserves of precious metals and minerals and could have been a developed country otherwise.

Getting Balochistan out? India wanted to carve out free Balochistan along with Bangladesh. Even Yahya Khan wanted to fight further and we had already 5000kms square + from west Pakistan. But US intervened and we had to declare unilateral ceasefire.

If it happened, nobody would have been making it India vs Pakistan today.

Hope it helps.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1441844/smokers-corner-history-in-service

https://www.dawn.com/news/1437762

T'was an obsession to show that "our decision of secession was right" but Pakistan stopped being a regional power in 1971.

http://swachhbharatmission.gov.in/sbmcms/index.htm

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/the-needles-eye/cleaning-up-india-with-gandhiji/

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.ODFC.ZS

https://washwatch.org/en/countries-list/

50 billions is less than 2% of Indian Economy.

May be cause our definitions are terrorists aren't selective.

You're only good giving statements from perfection of Pakistan juvenile. Nothing better.

It's you who isn't able to do reasoning and just giving statement after statement. Not me.
After bumping thread with off topic rants & crying because a small rocket was going to throw 0.7 tonnes in orbit, do you actually think that you worth more than a layman?

Post whatever you have on SUPARCO thread and tag me please. I'd love to know about that damn bird which I'm waiting for since 2017. All talk and hot air backed by excuses on being smaller but no real substance.

Just like after testing implosion based nukes against thermonukes, having just 4 basic reactors against India's 26 HWRs, testing Nasr in response to Mangalyaan and declare their missile tech better than India after a few short range ballistic & cruise missiles, Pakistanis will declare themselves ahead of ISRO immediately after launching 50kg in 100 kilometers orbit.

I hope these guys will reply to remove your misconception.
@CriticalThought @Myth_buster_1

 

[Indx-techs]

and have you maded a engine?

How old are you?

Vikas liquid fuel engine was developed from France's viking

& rest of derivatives? Sourcing a bit of design from overseas isn't an issue, even China's almost every tech has its base sourced from USSR and from USA during Loral era after Sino Soviet split. They didn't even give that straight that because Asia's low cost manufacturing could screw and has screwed Western industry. They knew it since start.

In December next year, a new rocket engine is going to take off from India. It's the base of upcoming ULV & HLV and will eliminate current rocket fleet of India and will further pave way for India's space station goals.

kaveri and manik are being developed with help of france
renaming Turbomeca TM 333 to shakti for your dhuruv chopper wouldn't make it indigenous at all.

I've explained the difference between designing & metallurgy dozens of times.

How'd you judge difference between renamed and collaborated? India's aerospace industry and R&D is large in size.
What about rest of technologies except engines? How much of them are possessed by Pakistan? Dual arm motors, IR seekers, pneumatic actuation systems, targeting pods or even basic techs like landing gears?

I've worked with HSL and have witnessed how much of "consultancy" Russians provide. It's suggestion at its best.

If copying things are so easy or you think other countries are willing to leak their technology that easily when even IPRs of an AAM cost billions, why a Pakistani would taste time on this thread?

Get from west, India was actually alienated by west for 3rd quarter and later by both West and East block in fourth quarter of previous century amid nuclear crisis.

So again 'Ulta chor kotwal ko dante'.You indiots are prime example of these words.

Comparing taking design basis or test beds and getting stuff directly is stupid. China, India and Iran made efforts to understand what they got.

I never said Pakistan copied anything or even bothered to do empirical reverse engineering to find anything from scratch. I said you got the technology as it is.

I hope these guys will reply to remove your misconception.
@CriticalThought @Myth_buster_1

LOL, first do with your own. Your acting kinda so helpless that even in a war of words.
Kindly make a list of my misconceptions you deem, I'll do with yours in a couple of hours.
Your incapable brain is too small and fragile for the stuff you are arguing with this "indiot" you idiot.
Regards

 

[Goku-kun]

& rest of derivatives? Sourcing a bit of design from overseas isn't an issue, even China's almost every tech has its base sourced from USSR and from USA during Loral era after Sino Soviet split.

In December next year, a new rocket engine is going to take off from India. It's the base of upcoming ULV & HLV and will eliminate current rocket fleet of India and will further pave way for India's space station goals.

Even our projects aren't indigenous and we never claim them to be indigenous.Even the words 'JF' from JF-17 say that it is a 'joint fighter' but problem is when india troll us that their stuff is indigenous while we borrow China's input to troll us although it's true but YOU ARE NOT RIGHT PERSON TO SAY THIS when you yourself are having 90% foreign input and 10% your own input.You take multiple ideas from different sources and integrate it with western technology and call it indigenous.
Great detail on your hal dhurv:
Indian helicopters for Myanmar: making a mockery of embargoes?

LOL, first do with your own. Your acting kinda so helpless that even in a war of words.

I do lack proper words as of now to explain you that's why tagged those guys.You shouldn't have any problem and one thing more and that's your knowledge is indeed commendable bro but you will find those guys's information even more worthy if they replied.

 

[Darwin]

What do you think? I login only for gems like him coz I won't find them anywhere else. A few Think Tanks are even more pathetic.

Anyways, let's keep it straight. He says that our tech is sourced from overseas while theirs is their own.
I say ours have initial IPR exchanges and rest by ourselves while Pakisani BM tech initiated from DF-11 missiles. Countries with BMs usually have SLVs.

1. Case I: Pakistan sourced its missile tech from China not SLV tech. That's why it couldn't conduct any orbital launch which is totally understable.
2. Case II: Pakistan's missile technology is homegrown. Still it couldn't develop any SLV. Means IQ of Pakistani Scientists is lower than their American, Russian, Chinese, European, Japanese, Indian, Iranian and Korean counterparts.

He can choose to agree with whichever one he finds suitable but shouldn't mix the two. Either Pakistanis didn't actually develop tech they have or they are exceptionally primitive that they could not develop at further.

Pakistan has zero GMs in chess. Even Bangladesh Nepal have GMs. India has 60 GMs. Pakistanis are really different from the rest of the subcontinent. They are definitely not iranian as Iran has quite a few GMs. Wonder from where the paks got their intelligence from ??

 

[Indx-techs]

Even our projects aren't indigenous and we never claim them to be indigenous.Even the words 'JF' from JF-17 say that it is a 'joint fighter'

No you did, you've brought "our JF17* in every thread you don't belong to when Indians weren't even talking about Pakistan.
That's why I chose to "quantify" aerospace technology because India's imports were big because India uses more stuff. Pakistan doesn't have DDGs or FFGs so it doesn't have to have so much armament to equip them.
Debunking other rant regarding for engines, if India was actually able to get French to transfer tech, India's turbofan would have been as successful as rocket engines.

A rocket engines flies and bursts at once but an aircraft engine has to take off 1,000-5,000 or sometimes even 10,000 times in its life cycle which accelerates corrosion and hot creep in engine. That's the reason why a dozen of countries have space rockets but only 4-5 have aircraft engines.

It further elaborates how much foreign support India actually got.

but problem is when india troll us that their stuff is indigenous while we borrow China's input to troll us although it's true but YOU ARE NOT RIGHT PERSON TO SAY THIS when you yourself are having 90% foreign input and 10% your own input.

Ghanta 90%, what's your source? It's 40% by value and even lower in terms of volume given maximum heavy engineering is native in India.
List up items what Pakistan makes and India doesn't and vice versa.

You take multiple ideas from different sources and integrate it with western technology and call it indigenous.

What else others do? Seriously, its a part of engineering.

I do lack proper words as of now to explain you that's why tagged those guys.You shouldn't have any problem and one thing more and that's your knowledge is indeed commendable bro but you will find those guys's information even more worthy if they replied.

This is desperation.

Instead of bumping every thread starting flame baits, choose a topic of your interest like I'm for space tech.

1. Small Arms
2. Special Forces Tactics
3. Aerospace
4. Naval Tech
5. Material science and semiconductors

Or whatever else you want. Keep studying on Google books, Wikipedia or whatvever your find to gain knowledge. Make sure that you don't bump anywhere where you don't have any material.
You shouldn't have a specific agenda of nationalistic chest thumping and country bashing. Don't stay on PDF alone and travel around forums.
Russian Military Forum isn't that active, American Military Forum was disbanded due to low crowd, Sino Defence takes long time for verification and Defence Forum India has become radically anti Pakistani since Uri base camp attack. Still, subsequent relevant sections on any forum have a pool of knowledge. Great knowledge!

 

[Goku-kun]

Debunking other rant regarding for engines, if India was actually able to get French to transfer tech, India's turbofan would have been as successful as rocket engines.

Safran Ardiden - Wikipedia which is used in haal dhuruv and you call it 'shakti' engine.Open the link and read 'development' heading or I should just simple copy/paste it for you over here:
The Safran Ardiden is a 1,400–2,000 hp (1,000–1,500 kW) turboshaft designed and produced by Safran Helicopter Engines for 5–8 t (11,000–18,000 lb) single and twin-engine helicopters. Launched in 2003 as a more powerful TM 333, it first ran in 2005 and was introduced in 2007. The Ardiden 1 Shakti powers the Indian HAL Dhruv, Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter.
DEVELOPMENT:
In 1961, Turbomeca granted Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) a manufacturing license for the Artouste turboshaft engine to equip the Indian Alouette III Chetak and Alouette II Cheetah helicopters.

By September 2000, HAL had contracted with Turbomeca to develop a more powerful version of the LAH's TM 3332B2, from 747 to 800 kW (1,002 to 1,073 hp). By January 2002, Turbomeca had begun developing the 1,200 hp (890 kW) Ardiden TM3332C2 for 5–6 t (11,000–13,000 lb) helicopters, launched at the Paris Air Show for the LAH as the Shakti, co-developed and assembled by HAL, as the US lifted India's 1998 nuclear tests sanctions. The TM3332B2 first two axial stages were replaced by a centrifugal compressor, and the power turbine went from one to two stages, while the two channel FADEC came from the TM3332E. Then expected to enter service in 2005, its estimated market was 1,500 engines over the first 15 years.

By July 2002, Turbomeca was ready to launch the 900 kW (1,200 hp) engine development with HAL for 11% for the ALH, then renamed Dhruv. The TM333 was derated from 800 to 765 kW (1,073 to 1,026 hp) for the Dhruv, and the Ardiden 1H Shakti would be derated from 1,070 to 900 kW (1,430 to 1,210 hp). The Ardiden 1A was designed to for the Eurocopter EC155HP+, and the Ardiden 2K for the Agusta-Bell AB.139. It would slot between the 485–740 kW (650–992 hp) Arriel and the 1,240–1,565 kW (1,663–2,099 hp) Makila for 5-6 t (11,000-13,250lb) medium twins. At $500,000, it would be 40% cheaper than 900kW competitors like the Honeywell/Rolls-Royce LHTEC CTS800 and the MTU/Turbomeca/R-R MTR390. The first test run was then expected in early 2004, flight-testing by the end of the same year, certification by the end of 2005 and entry into service by 2006. It was launched in February 2003 at the Aero India show with a large order from HAL, to be used in 6-6.5 t (13,200-14,300lb) helicopters. HAL was to supply one-tenth of its components.
By October 2005, Turbomeca ran the first example in Tarbes, planning a July 2006 first flight. HAL has an 11% stake in development and 21% of the manufacture: the gearbox, power turbine and part of the HP compressor. The design include the single-crystal HP turbine blades and new ceramic coatings to run without cooling, for 20% of growth potential.

Developed by India for 19%, the Shakti made its first test flight on the Dhruv on 16 August 2007.By late 2007, HAL started fitting the Shakti for Dhruvs produced from then.

The Ardiden 3G was certified in June 2017 and by 2018, 250 Ardiden 1 were in service.

What else others do? Seriously, its a part of engineering.

but then they don't claim it to be indigenous.

Instead of bumping every thread starting flame baits, choose a topic of your interest like I'm for space tech.

1. Small Arms
2. Special Forces Tactics
3. Aerospace
4. Naval Tech
5. Material science and semiconductors

Or whatever else you want. Keep studying on Google books, Wikipedia or whatvever your find to gain knowledge. Make sure that you don't bump anywhere where you don't have any material.
You shouldn't have a specific agenda of nationalistic chest thumping and country bashing. Don't stay on PDF alone and travel around forums.

I do appreciate you replying appropriately and our discussion is not going to abusive comments.

 

[Indx-techs]

Safran Ardiden - Wikipedia which is used in haal dhuruv and you call it 'shakti' engine.Open the link and read 'development' heading or I should just simple copy/paste it for you over here:
The Safran Ardiden is a 1,400–2,000 hp (1,000–1,500 kW) turboshaft designed and produced by Safran Helicopter Engines for 5–8 t (11,000–18,000 lb) single and twin-engine helicopters. Launched in 2003 as a more powerful TM 333, it first ran in 2005 and was introduced in 2007. The Ardiden 1 Shakti powers the Indian HAL Dhruv, Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter.
DEVELOPMENT:
In 1961, Turbomeca granted Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) a manufacturing license for the Artouste turboshaft engine to equip the Indian Alouette III Chetak and Alouette II Cheetah helicopters.

By September 2000, HAL had contracted with Turbomeca to develop a more powerful version of the LAH's TM 3332B2, from 747 to 800 kW (1,002 to 1,073 hp). By January 2002, Turbomeca had begun developing the 1,200 hp (890 kW) Ardiden TM3332C2 for 5–6 t (11,000–13,000 lb) helicopters, launched at the Paris Air Show for the LAH as the Shakti, co-developed and assembled by HAL, as the US lifted India's 1998 nuclear tests sanctions. The TM3332B2 first two axial stages were replaced by a centrifugal compressor, and the power turbine went from one to two stages, while the two channel FADEC came from the TM3332E. Then expected to enter service in 2005, its estimated market was 1,500 engines over the first 15 years.

By July 2002, Turbomeca was ready to launch the 900 kW (1,200 hp) engine development with HAL for 11% for the ALH, then renamed Dhruv. The TM333 was derated from 800 to 765 kW (1,073 to 1,026 hp) for the Dhruv, and the Ardiden 1H Shakti would be derated from 1,070 to 900 kW (1,430 to 1,210 hp). The Ardiden 1A was designed to for the Eurocopter EC155HP+, and the Ardiden 2K for the Agusta-Bell AB.139. It would slot between the 485–740 kW (650–992 hp) Arriel and the 1,240–1,565 kW (1,663–2,099 hp) Makila for 5-6 t (11,000-13,250lb) medium twins. At $500,000, it would be 40% cheaper than 900kW competitors like the Honeywell/Rolls-Royce LHTEC CTS800 and the MTU/Turbomeca/R-R MTR390. The first test run was then expected in early 2004, flight-testing by the end of the same year, certification by the end of 2005 and entry into service by 2006. It was launched in February 2003 at the Aero India show with a large order from HAL, to be used in 6-6.5 t (13,200-14,300lb) helicopters. HAL was to supply one-tenth of its components.
By October 2005, Turbomeca ran the first example in Tarbes, planning a July 2006 first flight. HAL has an 11% stake in development and 21% of the manufacture: the gearbox, power turbine and part of the HP compressor. The design include the single-crystal HP turbine blades and new ceramic coatings to run without cooling, for 20% of growth potential.

Developed by India for 19%, the Shakti made its first test flight on the Dhruv on 16 August 2007.By late 2007, HAL started fitting the Shakti for Dhruvs produced from then.

The Ardiden 3G was certified in June 2017 and by 2018, 250 Ardiden 1 were in service.

Again you are putting solely one component of one project here. I never denied that India lags in engine development but the assumption of foreign support to India is overplayed simply. Aero engine is the most complex thing. Simply put, how much of engine stuff is there in Pak either?

BTW, Indian HTFE has been materialized from the experience gained.
But again its one component of one project (Light Helicopter). There are hundreds of projects at naval, army, air force & strategic forces context. There is a thread on DRDO PSU News & Discussion elaborating most of successful projects. They aren't very famous because they weren't delayed, didn't receive criticism and have become an "obvious" part of Indian capabilities, specially from aerospace sector.

but then they don't claim it to be indigenous.

They don't bother either. Even F-35 has sourced a lot from Europe. USAF has lot of foreign made & even Russian stuff in its inventory. There was a time when Indian Subcontinent was very backward and our imports of technology were too high.
That's why we are obsessed with indigenization now.

The car running in UK which was made in India could be built by a Korean company which would have sourced all parts from other automobile companies in India but engine from China at cheaper price. Its precision parts like pistons & spark plugs may be made in Germany and complex electrical circuits from Japan. Smart Technologies may be programmed inside imported chips fron Taiwan which would have been designed by an Indian or even a Pakistani at some instance sitting in Bangalore or Silicon Valley.

Credit must go to the company who envisaged the idea, not India's cheap labor, China's cheap steel or Germany & Japan's high tech systems. This "total indigenization" is a meaningless pursuit because cost factors and availability would screw your business.

In Defense Industry only, we try to do indigenization so that we don't have to suffer during wartime and nothing else.

Now, comes to India, if India would have remained stubborn of not putting imported equipment, development of every single thing, projects would never have ended.

China has already killed its 2-3 fighter aircraft projects in this attempt in 80s. India had a 4G fighter project similar to F-15 screwed in this way simply.

India has more projects than Pakistan because of its budget and West, China & Japan are ahead of India because of their larger budgets. Plus their experience in this stuff since first world war has to count unlike India who forced to jump into a high bypass advanced turbofan project in first attempt without having any earlier experience.
Now, France is a declining power, Europe's aerospace giant who is losing prominence around the globe. India is emerging and gaining some ground but needs a technological stop gap. France is willing to sell, why not get it?

I do appreciate you replying appropriately and our discussion is not going to abusive comments.

It won't go either but we've tilted from title a bit.

 

[Goku-kun]

Aero engine is the most complex thing. Simply put, how much of engine stuff is there in Pak either?

'Viking' engine used in agni missile is being renamed to 'vikas' so what effort have you put in developing even an aero engine.We have our missiles engine being developed by SUPARCO and if you think that we have got it from somwhere too than just place the source.

BTW, Indian HTFE has been materialized from the experience gained.

Of course they do like in this safran ardiden engine case as indian engineers were going to france at the company headquarters and their they received training to build engine components and assembling.

They don't bother either. Even F-35 has sourced a lot from Europe. USAF has lot of foreign made & even Russian stuff in its inventory. There was a time when Indian Subcontinent was very backward and our imports of technology were too high.

Plzz bro don't fool yourself.We all know that still USA alone has 90%+ contribution and if it was a joint project then Turkey was one of the partners in developing the jet but still US congress putted hurdles in delivering them to Turkey than later delivered 2-3 jets then again blocked the delivery and since that day it is still blocked today.

The car running in UK which was made in India could be built by a Korean company which would have sourced all parts from other automobile companies in India but engine from China at cheaper price. Its precision parts like pistons & spark plugs may be made in Germany and complex electrical circuits from Japan. Smart Technologies may be programmed inside imported chips fron Taiwan which would have been designed by an Indian or even a Pakistani at some instance sitting in Bangalore or Silicon Valley.

but that's not the case with HAL Dhruv of yours..
I think you didn't read the link I give you of amnesty international.If you read it you will find out that 90%+ of the helicopter is made through foreign components and help.
Indian helicopters for Myanmar: making a mockery of embargoes?

 

[Indx-techs]

'Viking' engine used in agni missile is being renamed to 'vikas' so

Ultimate garbage, Agni has directly nothing to do with Vikas. Vikas was designed by ideas from already produced Viking under licensed production and later further money was put for upgrades. Much like Chinese copycat system. So, orbital launch systems were in place before missiles.

India then tried to develop same into missiles by name of Project "Valiant" for a 10,000-16,000 kms ICBM in first attempt which failed miserably. In due course of time, sounding rocket and sub orbital technology matured and a synchronized program called IGMDP was started which is still going on.
Base was Viking indeed but not anything more than base. They gave limited tech and charged money for it.

what effort have you put in developing even an aero engine.

We have been doing for decades since era of Marut but limited success with prototypes and designs only. As told before, Turbofans suffer accelerated corrosion and hot creep which rocket engines don't at most. This metallurgy is the reason why India has rocket but not aircraft engine.

Instead of putting so many references, I'd put Wikipedia here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Turbine_Research_Establishment
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri
For update, three spool core Kabini was improvised to minimize creep. Engine is still not good enough.

French have that's why elevated cost highly Rafael deal inside deal offsets to "rectify the problem in Kaveri".

We have our missiles engine being developed by SUPARCO and if you think that we have got it from somwhere too than just place the source.

This is one for missile, I can put more:
https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/hatf-1/
For more, the base comes from Nike Cajun used in Rehbar program leading to subsequent indigenization of ballistic missiles & Ghaznavi resembles M11 for same season. Clear is that Pak got missile systems or actually sounding rocket technology which it somehow managed to use as long range artillery and then missile.

Turbofan engines from NPO Saturn were purchased in bulk from Soviet Union in 80s which are used in Pakistani cruise missiles now.

Of course they do like in this safran ardiden engine case as indian engineers were going to france at the company headquarters and their they received training to build engine components and assembling.

Obviously but to what extent they actual got knowhow to make it will be presented by timeline or HTFE 1200 itself. My experience with foreign consultants isn't very good. They just give us directions & clues to do the work in right way, they don't utter the kind of details I'd wish.

I'm more concerned with superalloys. Two developed by DMRL & MIdhani, DMD3 & 4 have not been fit

Plzz bro don't fool yourself.We all know that still USA alone has 90%+ contribution and if it was a joint project then Turkey was one of the partners in developing the jet but still US congress putted hurdles in delivering them to Turkey than later delivered 2-3 jets then again blocked the delivery and since that day it is still blocked today.

Exactly, US has forayed into so many projects where India hasn't so comparison isn't good. So is between India & Pakistan given that the gap between diversity in kinds of items they produce and use.

The statement above too mainly applies for aerospace sector as other industries have outta US to great extent.
Although, my response was in other context when you said:
"They don't call it indigenous."
And I said:
"They simply don't bother with it".

Interesting for all haters bashing Asians for copying things, US was similarly importing and assembling European aircrafts to gain tech for decades before developing this industry.

but that's not the case with HAL Dhruv of yours..
I think you didn't read the link I give you of amnesty international.If you read it you will find out that 90%+ of the helicopter is made through foreign components and help.
Indian helicopters for Myanmar: making a mockery of embargoes?

Already aware and agreed here but the CAG report Amnesty is quoting was from 2010. I can't find figure for now.

Regards

 

[Goku-kun]

Ultimate garbage, Agni has directly nothing to do with Vikas. Vikas was designed by ideas from already produced Viking under licensed production and later further money was put for upgrades. Much like Chinese copycat system. So, orbital launch systems were in place before missiles.

But you got help in the first place and then you built it on your own.Yeah Vikas was last used in 2nd stage of GSAT 6A of yours and I am forgetting it but it is definitely used in some missile of yours if not agni.

We have been doing for decades since era of Marut but limited success with prototypes and designs only. As told before, Turbofans suffer accelerated corrosion and hot creep which rocket engines don't at most. This metallurgy is the reason why India has rocket but not aircraft engine.

Instead of putting so many references, I'd put Wikipedia here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Turbine_Research_Establishment
For update, three spool core Kabini was improvised to minimize creep. Engine is still not good enough.

French have that's why elevated cost highly Rafael deal inside deal offsets to "rectify the problem in Kaveri".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri
Yeah you are but you are again in one way or other getting help from France in it too but yeah your R&D is definitely more in this field than us.But if we could arrange some funds and get assistance from China than it won't take much time for us too to built one.

Obviously but to what extent they actual got knowhow to make it will be presented by timeline or HTFE 1200 itself. My experience with foreign consultants isn't very good. They just give us directions & clues to do the work in right way, they don't utter the kind of details I'd wish.

Even if it's a know-how because we don't have even this know-how so if we begin to develop it from scratch today than it will take a lot of time for us to gather even the know-how of it.

 

[Indx-techs]

But you got help in the first place and then you built it on your own.Yeah Vikas was last used in 2nd stage of GSAT 6A of yours and I am forgetting it but it is definitely used in some missile of yours if not agni.

It's not missile at least mate. We miniaturized and modified it for making missiles. Small boosters and solid rocket motors and thrusters used in our rockets today are basis of missiles. Rockets have liquid fuel, missiles have solid.

Assembly of such stuffs takes weeks and war would have ended till then. This technology can't be used as it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri
Yeah you are but you are again in one way or other getting help from France in it too but yeah your R&D is definitely more in this field than us. But if we could arrange some funds and get assistance from China than it won't take much time for us too to built one.

Depends how much China gives you here, specially with metallurgy. China itself did it low bypass engine only very recently while Kaveri is a high bypass design. Pakistan too needs high bypass one.

Even if it's a know-how because we don't have even this know-how so if we begin to develop it from scratch today than it will take a lot of time for us to gather even the know-how of it.

The kind of technologies our respective countries are working on or receiving foreign help and totally different in nature and extent.
Our goals too are different. As we have not succeeded completely and you haven't started completely, we don't know what'd have happened other away. And if we both don't know about it, we shouldn't make India vs Pakistan out it.
Peace
Regards