Proposed plans to Raise 2 new Corps in South Pakistan (Opinion)

[Sayfullah]

Sure The undying wish.

You can enlighten me with the truth if I’m wrong. It won’t hurt my ego if I’m wrong rather I’ll be happy I learned something new.
But your responses show I’m right.

 

[Signalian]

You can enlighten me with the truth if I’m wrong. It won’t hurt my ego if I’m wrong rather I’ll be happy I learned something new.
But your responses show I’m right.

You can think what you want. Im bored of repeating 80's Afghan war in different threads. Read up my old posts.
Pakistan lacks a modern gunship atm for undertaking tasks inside and outside Pakistan.

 

[araz]

You can think what you want. Im bored of repeating 80's Afghan war in different threads. Read up my old posts.
Pakistan lacks a modern gunship atm for undertaking tasks inside and outside Pakistan.

To what extent are its UCAVs going to become effective in this role?. Help appreciated in advance

 

[Signalian]

To what extent are its UCAVs going to become effective in this role?. Help appreciated in advance

UAVs are part of every Ops.

Eyes in the sky are UAV due to their low speed and high loitering time in the sky. They can pick up movement in designated area and then gunships can be sent in to take out targets. UCAV carries a limited payload which is 2-4 missiles. Gunships can pick a weapon of choice for engaging different targets. They also carry radar (FCR/MMW) apart from sensors. Gunships can also escort air assault or SF assets if the mission requires boots on ground for 30 mins or so. Against an enemy with good AD assets, the compromise would be sending a UCAV to avoid capture of pilot if gunship is shot down. Afghanistan AD assets are not modern. UAVs can also direct long range artillery fire. Laser guided or GPS guided ammo.

Modern gunships can control UAVs.

 

[prop558]

UAVs are part of every Ops.

Eyes in the sky are UAV due to their low speed and high loitering time in the sky. They can pick up movement in designated area and then gunships can be sent in to take out targets. UCAV carries a limited payload which is 2-4 missiles. Gunships can pick a weapon of choice for engaging different targets. They also carry radar (FCR/MMW) apart from sensors. Gunships can also escort air assault or SF assets if the mission requires boots on ground for 30 mins or so. Against an enemy with good AD assets, the compromise would be sending a UCAV to avoid capture of pilot if gunship is shot down. Afghanistan AD assets are not modern. UAVs can also direct long range artillery fire. Laser guided or GPS guided ammo.

Modern gunships can control UAVs.

Very well described....

Adding to your point, FC Balochistan should also improved with better gears like :

• Improved Training
• Night Vision Drones
• Night Goggles
• APC & AFV
• RPGs
• MBT T-55 & T-69
• SSG Company for FC South

Other than that, Government & NHA should speed up the On-going Development Projects and should Engage Local Elders (like what we did in Ex FATA) to maintain better Law & Order.

 

[fatman17]

2 Corps needs to be raised in South Balochistan and South Sindh,

Corp HQ in Gwadar with Divisional HQ in Turbat and Panjgur.
Corp HQ in Pannu Aqil with Divisional HQ in Tharparkar and Umerkot.


Other than that FC Balochistan (specially south) needs to be more trained and more heavily armed with Advance technology.

Such plan was made during Gen. Musharaf's Era and was about to be done during Gen. Raheel Sharif's era as COAS, but instead of that Raheel Sharif went for raising a Division for CPEC Security.

Sir I don't think this plan is financially viable. Whilst l understand the need but I would consider making the corps at Quetta more functional for CT operations because that is the need in this AOR.

 

[prop558]

Sir I don't think this plan is financially viable. Whilst l understand the need but I would consider making the corps at Quetta more functional for CT operations because that is the need in this AOR.

Modernization of the current FC Balochistan is the need of the time. Otherwise they will keep suffering.

Secondly, regarding Sindh-Rajasthan Border, it can also be done without raising any new corps.

 

[Signalian]

Very well described....

Adding to your point, FC Balochistan should also improved with better gears like :

• Improved Training
• Night Vision Drones
• Night Goggles
• APC & AFV
• RPGs
• MBT T-55 & T-69
• SSG Company for FC South

Other than that, Government & NHA should speed up the On-going Development Projects and should Engage Local Elders (like what we did in Ex FATA) to maintain better Law & Order.

Intelligence failures by Intel agencies, failure to check movement inside towns/villages/local paths/road by LEAs( Baluchistan Police, Baluchistan Levies etc) and poor border management by FC are the main reasons of failure.

The task ahead is cumbersome. Govt sitting in Quetta/Islamabad wants FC to do everything where as local Govts inside districts and towns don't participate in monitoring and cleansing anti-Pakistan elements from their areas. Baluchistan Police is the first and foremost force to tackle anti-Pakistan factions in their beats and if help is needed then Baluchistan Constabulary can be called in. Then the deployment of Levies in their designated areas should bring results in terms of information about movement of people across towns and villages. The Intel agencies like Special branch, FIA, CID, IB and ISI have to then send reports to their respective departments for an Ops. After than FC can be sent in to cordon off the area with the help of Police or Levies to attack a suspected hideout or location where BLA/BLF elements have gathered.

Lining down LEA numbers in Baluchistan:
1. Baluchistan Police - 38,000
2. Baluchistan Levies - 23,000
3. Baluchistan Constabulary - 10,000

Total = 71,000 troops ( equal to 4-5 x Infantry divisions or 2 x Corps HQs)

The ones I didn't mention are (4) ANF and (5) Railway Police, both of which directly operate with Baluchistan Police and Intel agencies under MOI. Due to the railway sabotage incidents, the Railway Police has an important role to play inside Baluchistan.

Then of course there is FC divided into North and South, totaling ~ 40,000 troops.

So all the above forces, around 1 lac troops are under command of MOI in Baluchistan.

Next, there is 12 Corps HQ which has around 35,000 troops. Then 44th LID is there which has 7,000 Army regular troops and some (3-5) FC wings. That makes around 42,000+ regular Army troops. PAF has no ground forces apart from QRF on air bases. Then there are Pakistan Navy, Marines and Coast Guard troops deployed on the Baluchistan coast. SSG (N) can be called in if the incident requires. PMSA is a very small force so it plays almost a negligible role in Baluchistan. Another force under GHQ is NG, primarily Janbaz force, but it is mostly deployed in Punjab and Sindh, recruited from local areas to provide defense during war with India. I don't know if Janbaz force is deployed in Baluchistan,

Just to let you know, FIA has CT department and CID is now known as CTD as its committed towards counter-terror role. Still ISI has to go ahead and conduct most of the Ops. Intelligence agents numbers are classified so its hard to get number of agents deployed in Baluchistan for all intel agencies.

FC bears the brunt of all attacks because all the burden of Baluchistan security has been thrown on shoulders of FC. and you have just chosen FC to be equipped with the bells and whistles. BLA/BLF doesn't attack Police, Levies or Constabulary or even Railway Police. and somehow BLA/BLF always makes its way towards FC after passing through all check points of above mentioned LEAs. It seems that Police, Levies and Constabulary don't exist in Baluchistan where as they form the most number of troops combined.

So, What about the other LEAs ? and What about intel agencies ?

What are they doing in Baluchistan.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Budget includes acquisition for FC ?

Such things are forwarded by those on ground,what to acquire and how much to acquire,MoI has nothing to say here,MoI never makes any policy for FC.

IG FC sent the helicopters back ?

US provided 9 helos mainly refurbished one's in 2002 for manning Afg-Pak border primarily for Anti-Narco and border security.
Along with helos came training,assistance,spare parts and funding for operational usage of machines,In 2016 US withdrew above mentioned package and offered Pakistan transfer of those machines which Pakistan didn't took due to age of airframes.
That whole episode just started around CSF debacle.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Intelligence failures by Intel agencies, failure to check movement inside towns/villages/local paths/road by LEAs( Baluchistan Police, Baluchistan Levies etc) and poor border management by FC are the main reasons of failure.

The task ahead is cumbersome. Govt sitting in Quetta/Islamabad wants FC to do everything where as local Govts inside districts and towns don't participate in monitoring and cleansing anti-Pakistan elements from their areas. Baluchistan Police is the first and foremost force to tackle anti-Pakistan factions in their beats and if help is needed then Baluchistan Constabulary can be called in. Then the deployment of Levies in their designated areas should bring results in terms of information about movement of people across towns and villages. The Intel agencies like Special branch, FIA, CID, IB and ISI have to then send reports to their respective departments for an Ops. After than FC can be sent in to cordon off the area with the help of Police or Levies to attack a suspected hideout or location where BLA/BLF elements have gathered.

Lining down LEA numbers in Baluchistan:
1. Baluchistan Police - 38,000
2. Baluchistan Levies - 23,000
3. Baluchistan Constabulary - 10,000

Total = 71,000 troops ( equal to 4-5 x Infantry divisions or 2 x Corps HQs)

The ones I didn't mention are (4) ANF and (5) Railway Police, both of which directly operate with Baluchistan Police and Intel agencies under MOI. Due to the railway sabotage incidents, the Railway Police has an important role to play inside Baluchistan.

Then of course there is FC divided into North and South, totaling ~ 40,000 troops.

So all the above forces, around 1 lac troops are under command of MOI in Baluchistan.

Next, there is 12 Corps HQ which has around 35,000 troops. Then 44th LID is there which has 7,000 Army regular troops and some (3-5) FC wings. That makes around 42,000+ regular Army troops. PAF has no ground forces apart from QRF on air bases. Then there are Pakistan Navy, Marines and Coast Guard troops deployed on the Baluchistan coast. SSG (N) can be called in if the incident requires. PMSA is a very small force so it plays almost a negligible role in Baluchistan. Another force under GHQ is NG, primarily Janbaz force, but it is mostly deployed in Punjab and Sindh, recruited from local areas to provide defense during war with India. I don't know if Janbaz force is deployed in Baluchistan,

Just to let you know, FIA has CT department and CID is now known as CTD as its committed towards counter-terror role. Still ISI has to go ahead and conduct most of the Ops. Intelligence agents numbers are classified so its hard to get number of agents deployed in Baluchistan for all intel agencies.

FC bears the brunt of all attacks because all the burden of Baluchistan security has been thrown on shoulders of FC. and you have just chosen FC to be equipped with the bells and whistles. BLA/BLF doesn't attack Police, Levies or Constabulary or even Railway Police. and somehow BLA/BLF always makes its way towards FC after passing through all check points of above mentioned LEAs. It seems that Police, Levies and Constabulary don't exist in Baluchistan where as they form the most number of troops combined.

So, What about the other LEAs ? and What about intel agencies ?

What are they doing in Baluchistan.

Terrorism issue in Baluchistan is more complex than you think,our Intel setup is old school,incompetent and very rigid.
Baluchistan is huge area, very thinly populated with no sustainable source of income and having complex tribal and regional dynamics.

 

[Sine Nomine]

A Baluchistan Government transport plane was gifted to AJK Government last week. The jet was parked at Quetta airport and not airworthy. The old VIP transport jet had been mothballed after the purchase of a new plane by the Baluchistan government. Now why wasn't this aircraft handed over to FC instead with all the intel apparatus installed ?

How much ops value this jet would have in COIN ops?

 

[tman786]

We need to reduce army size so we can spend more on modernization.

We need to reduce army size so more money can be looted by PDM.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

2 Corps needs to be raised in South Balochistan and South Sindh,

Corp HQ in Gwadar with Divisional HQ in Turbat and Panjgur.
Corp HQ in Pannu Aqil with Divisional HQ in Tharparkar and Umerkot.


Other than that FC Balochistan (specially south) needs to be more trained and more heavily armed with Advance technology.

Such plan was made during Gen. Musharaf's Era and was about to be done during Gen. Raheel Sharif's era as COAS, but instead of that Raheel Sharif went for raising a Division for CPEC Security.

I'd rather have these changes,
> One GPS phone with large chowkis to avoid any radio jamming through noise.
> Higher protection vehicles for squads.
> Abandonment of 2.5 ton multipurpose troop carriers.
> Use of surveillance blimps where possible.
> Higher response time via MALE UAVs.
> Phasing out of all short wheel based Land cruisers.(absolutely useless)
> No new staff cars before 25 years service of previous model. And only replaceable by locally manufactured solutions.

 

[Signalian]

Such things are forwarded by those on ground,what to acquire and how much to acquire,MoI has nothing to say here,MoI never makes any policy for FC.


US provided 9 helos mainly refurbished one's in 2002 for manning Afg-Pak border primarily for Anti-Narco and border security.
Along with helos came training,assistance,spare parts and funding for operational usage of machines,In 2016 US withdrew above mentioned package and offered Pakistan transfer of those machines which Pakistan didn't took due to age of airframes.
That whole episode just started around CSF debacle.

Terrorism issue in Baluchistan is more complex than you think,our Intel setup is old school,incompetent and very rigid.
Baluchistan is huge area, very thinly populated with no sustainable source of income and having complex tribal and regional dynamics.

How much ops value this jet would have in COIN ops?

You are just arguing for sake of arguing and you have no idea what so ever about MOI, FC and related development. I hate to participate in such kind of arguments. I can hand you the "trophy" as winner of the argument and step aside after this as my last reply to you.

Firstly, MOI tells FC what to do, where to deploy, how many troops to deploy etc. IG FC does as he is told by MOI, not GHQ. These plans are drawn up during meetings with NACTA, and other departments like National Internal Security Operations Centre (NISOC), Intelligence and Analysis Centre (IAC), Directorate of Internal Security (DIS) etc which formulate a threat matrix for entire Pakistan and then provincially. Then MOI makes up policy for FC, sets up tasks for FC to support local law enforcement in maintaining law and order when requested by the Federal government. The reports of Ops undertaken by FC are then sent back to MOI who shares them with NISOC etc to analyze and formulate further plans for deployment of FC and set up further operational tasks for FC to be conducted.

Secondly, the reason I mentioned helicopters was because I wanted to see if you have any idea what is the 2022 update on status of helicopters for FC. Clearly, you are not updated since you are just arguing for sake of argument. Even I know the timelines when USA assisted UH-1s were returned and I wrote extensively on that in a thread last year or so. Now the update for 2022 is that Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) approved grants of Rs. 60 million for Ministry of Interior within sanctioned budget for purchase of spare parts for Helicopter maintained by HQs Frontier Corps Baluchistan North and Rs. 3 million equivalent to $ 17,133.06 within sanctioned budget for Ministry of Interior for purchase of spare parts for helicopter maintained by HQs Frontier Corps KP (North) early in 2022. There was a requirement for 8 x helicopters for MOI, go ahead and check the status for that. Rest of MOI helicopters are NV equipped for Ops but they are not with FC.

Thirdly, in Afghanistan there was EW and other jamming equipment installed on various USAF aircrafts to help with COIN Ops on ground. Since there are no UAVs deployed for FC Ops, conversion of a transport aircraft for ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance) could have been the first step. MOI has 3+4 operational airfields while the ones under PN/PAF can be used also like Shamsi AF(Bhandari Airstrip) or the new one in Nasirabad. Also, FC provides medical assistance all over Baluchistan and a dedicated transport aircraft for medical evac is a necessity. Have a look in to FCH (FC hospital) as well as FC assistance in BHUs (Basic Health Units), RHCs (Rural Health Centers) and DHQs (District Headquarters Hospitals in Baluchistan.

Fourthly, Yes the terrorism issue in Baluchistan is more complex than I think. Perhaps I bothered for a few mins towards this write up, so maybe somebody benefits from it and then again maybe not.

 

[Reddawn]

You are just arguing for sake of arguing and you have no idea what so ever about MOI, FC and related development. I hate to participate in such kind of arguments. I can hand you the "trophy" as winner of the argument and step aside after this as my last reply to you.

Firstly, MOI tells FC what to do, where to deploy, how many troops to deploy etc. IG FC does as he is told by MOI, not GHQ. These plans are drawn up during meetings with NACTA, and other departments like National Internal Security Operations Centre (NISOC), Intelligence and Analysis Centre (IAC), Directorate of Internal Security (DIS) etc which formulate a threat matrix for entire Pakistan and then provincially. Then MOI makes up policy for FC, sets up tasks for FC to support local law enforcement in maintaining law and order when requested by the Federal government. The reports of Ops undertaken by FC are then sent back to MOI who shares them with NISOC etc to analyze and formulate further plans for deployment of FC and set up further operational tasks for FC to be conducted.

Secondly, the reason I mentioned helicopters was because I wanted to see if you have any idea what is the 2022 update on status of helicopters for FC. Clearly, you are not updated since you are just arguing for sake of argument. Even I know the timelines when USA assisted UH-1s were returned and I wrote extensively on that in a thread last year or so. Now the update for 2022 is that Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) approved grants of Rs. 60 million for Ministry of Interior within sanctioned budget for purchase of spare parts for Helicopter maintained by HQs Frontier Corps Baluchistan North and Rs. 3 million equivalent to $ 17,133.06 within sanctioned budget for Ministry of Interior for purchase of spare parts for helicopter maintained by HQs Frontier Corps KP (North) early in 2022. There was a requirement for 8 x helicopters for MOI, go ahead and check the status for that. Rest of MOI helicopters are NV equipped for Ops but they are not with FC.

Thirdly, in Afghanistan there was EW and other jamming equipment installed on various USAF aircrafts to help with COIN Ops on ground. Since there are no UAVs deployed for FC Ops, conversion of a transport aircraft for ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance) could have been the first step. MOI has 3+4 operational airfields while the ones under PN/PAF can be used also like Shamsi AF(Bhandari Airstrip) or the new one in Nasirabad. Also, FC provides medical assistance all over Baluchistan and a dedicated transport aircraft for medical evac is a necessity. Have a look in to FCH (FC hospital) as well as FC assistance in BHUs (Basic Health Units), RHCs (Rural Health Centers) and DHQs (District Headquarters Hospitals in Baluchistan.

Fourthly, Yes the terrorism issue in Baluchistan is more complex than I think. Perhaps I bothered for a few mins towards this write up, so maybe somebody benefits from it and then again maybe not.

Brilliant posts! I found them to be very informative. Re the LIDs. Are these formations for internal security only or can they be used to mount offensive operations against Indian formations? Are they a part of the regular PA orbat?