Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[RAMPAGE]

Exactly. However, we have a habit of setting unrealistic expectations that cause us to compromise and fail later.

The al-Khalid MBT, Agosta 90B, etc all fell to this issue.

I would rather we run a true indigenization program with a consistent and healthy stream of funding across 20-30 years without any pressure on deadlines, expediency, etc, and actually get our own fighter (+ critical inputs, CNCs, jig manfuacturing, etc, etc) by 2040, than to never get it because we lost heart failing due to not setting the right expectations early.

The induction of a stop-gap fighter may become a possibility depending on the pace at which the Rafale is inducted by the IAF. I think the PAF will wait and watch for now whilst focusing on inducting JF17 BLK3s in numbers and on the AZM project - relying on foreign input where it is needed to expediate the work. Alternatively, the PAF may opt for a more mature project, the FC31 or the TFX, if it suspects that the IAF will swiftly induct the Rafale in numbers. I cannot say I know if the PAF fears this possibility. What do you think?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Sorry if I offended You, it was never my intention ... as I said I'm a German and my first language is German.

You did not offend me, my friend. I am deeply obliged to your country. I mistook you for a Chinese member.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Exactly. However, we have a habit of setting unrealistic expectations that cause us to compromise and fail later.

The al-Khalid MBT, Agosta 90B, etc all fell to this issue.

I would rather we run a true indigenization program with a consistent and healthy stream of funding across 20-30 years without any pressure on deadlines, expediency, etc, and actually get our own fighter (+ critical inputs, CNCs, jig manfuacturing, etc, etc) by 2040, than to never get it because we lost heart failing due to not setting the right expectations early.

By separating immediate requirements from in-house R&D and domestic production, we can safely remove our generals from leading such posts (and instead leave leadership to engineers and scientists from those entities). There's no need for 'prudent administration' or 'completing X in only 5% the time' nonsense.

Let's take AZM and the FGFA for example.

AHQ can delegate the development of AZM to the R&D community. From now to 2040, AHQ can focus on inducting the FC-31. If it adds a few economists to the negotiating team, we can even construct an offset agreement with the Chinese. Yes, we may not even build a single part of the FC-31 in Pakistan, but we might get 33% (or even 99%) of the contractual cost return to Pakistan via target investments, barters and other benefits from China. So we can maintain our macroeconomic balance while supporting defence. We may even channel offsets to supporting our private sector aerospace industry by giving them revenue, investment, etc to set-up capacity for later.

From 2040, AHQ can go to AvRID and ask, "can we develop an indigenous fighter?" And with now 20+ years of solid R&D work under its belt, AvRID can give a solid plan on how to do it. No more worrying about critical inputs, we'll know how to either develop them or how to integrate them without relying on a foreign supplier. Once we get the fighter ready, PAC can subcontract the manufacturing work to the private sector (which by then would have the capacity to support the work thanks to the offsets via FC-31).

I am a patient man, and yet I am horrified by your timeline. Imagine the sheer scale of accumulating disappointment resulting from opening the AZM thread over a course of 30 years. Proposal rejected! We make it up as we go along.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I am a patient man, and yet I am horrified by your timeline. Imagine the sheer scale of accumulating disappointment resulting from opening the AZM thread over a course of 30 years. Proposal rejected! We make it up as we go along.

The thing about the 30-year timeline is that from now and until we manufacture a 'Made in Pakistan' fighter, we will have revolutionized our industry.

Every R&D step we take from now to then will involve creating copious amounts of IP, creating a range of exportable products, developing other indigenous solutions (for defence and civilian usage), etc. It will drive exports, create jobs, and create new areas of interest for our people, especially the youth. Forget this forum, they'll be working on actual projects that'll develop skills and qualifications for them to (1) boost our tech exports in some form and (2) earn a great living before they even learn how to drive.

By the time we get AZM, I would hope that (relatively speaking) we have kids whose dreams, lives and livelihoods don't orbit around joining the armed forces (and building a weird quasi-celebrity/TMZ culture around it as we now see on Facebook, Instagram, etc), but other great sectors of the economy. And if they do want to join the military, they do it because they want to be true warriors, not for anything else (e.g., the prestige, livelihood, etc).

 

[RAMPAGE]

The thing about the 30-year timeline is that from now and until we manufacture a 'Made in Pakistan' fighter, we will have revolutionized our industry.

Every R&D step we take from now to then will involve creating copious amounts of IP, creating a range of exportable products, developing other indigenous solutions (for defence and civilian usage), etc. It will drive exports, create jobs, and create new areas of interest for our people, especially the youth. Forget this forum, they'll be working on actual projects that'll develop skills and qualifications for them to (1) boost our tech exports in some form and (2) earn a great living before they even learn how to drive.

By the time we get AZM, I would hope that (relatively speaking) we have kids whose dreams, lives and livelihoods don't orbit around joining the armed forces (and building a weird quasi-celebrity/TMZ culture around it as we now see on Facebook, Instagram, etc), but other great sectors of the economy. And if they do want to join the military, they do it because they want to be true warriors, not for anything else (e.g., the prestige, livelihood, etc).

I agree. When I used to say this seven years ago on this forum, the "TTs" would tell me why build something in-house when it can be imported cheap. After all, we are a poor country. I'm glad you've been championing local manufacturing while I've been on my hiatus. In the end there is just one sin in the world: immediate gratification. Pakistanis, like other developing nations, are very adept at this.

 

[Tipu7]

It's a random concept made by @Tipu7

Not my work.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I would rather we run a true indigenization program with a consistent and healthy stream of funding across 20-30 years without any pressure on deadlines, expediency, etc, and actually get our own fighter (+ critical inputs, CNCs, jig manfuacturing, etc, etc) by 2040, than to never get it because we lost heart failing due to not setting the right expectations early.

This will only lead to failure and no results. No pressure for deadlines or expediency will mean nothing getting done. A healthy stream of funding should only come on the back of stream of results.

 

[F86 Saber]

Turks showed no interest and turned us away when some time ago pre AZM we approached them.

for them we had no technological base or the resources to bring on the table to be their partner.
red faced we returned and decided our own program. only recently we got favourable Turkish curiosity.

these are words from a PAF officer.

Actually Turkey did not turn us away, the share that they asked us to pay was too high so we turned the offer down. We then completed the initial design phase work at fraction of the cost ourselves and showed it to them which got their interest.

We also went to China for J-20 and they told us to first complete the JF-17 program upto Block 3 and then they would think about it.

 

[Figaro]

Why do I have that bad feeling it is nothing but a fan-made concept?

Not a poor concept too be honest ... drew quite a lot of influence from the J-20 and F-22.

 

[Deino]

Not a poor concept too be honest ... drew quite a lot of influence from the J-20 and F-22.

I never said a "poor or stupid concept" - in fact I won't complain if it would look like this - but the overall way it is presented looks most fan-made!

 

[PakShaheen79]

Sometimes I wish that AZM will come out as a surprise as was with Babur and Raad. But then a realization begins to set in that this is not a missile but a 5th generation aircraft project ... I agree with @Quwa 's point of view on separating FGF and AZM. We are not ready. Not ready by a long distance. There are too many complex systems for which we don't have industrial base neither required poll of human resource.

 

[GreyHat]

It's a random concept made by @Tipu7

Barring the Canards-ish thing . It seems a mere implementation of YF-23 "Black Widow"
The wing Canards seems from the same pivot too.
I only wonder though, Is there no chance that We can have Northtop Grumman can join in Aviation Industry Buildup(Majorly Focusing on this project though).
We did had a joint venture(had it not been the situation) that was going fine. PAK-US relation are pretty good at this point and it's not like we want the F-35 or something.It's a venture of sorts.
I wonder if they have tried it?

 

[Tamiyah]

Not my work.

Oh. My bad.

 

[The Raven]

Surely not since I'm Deino from PDF, but more based on common sense... by the way, aren't we all playing a role here?

And I'm the always sceptical, supercritical nasty German, who only believes in facts.
I know it is annoying for some but still better than shamefully admitting afterwards that all the hype on "we get J-15s, J-16s, J-10Cs and even J-20s ..." was nothing but a hype.

I think this forum definitely needs some Germanic no-nonsense rationality Deino

 

[Akh1112]

Barring the Canards-ish thing . It seems a mere implementation of YF-23 "Black Widow"
The wing Canards seems from the same pivot too.
I only wonder though, Is there no chance that We can have Northtop Grumman can join in Aviation Industry Buildup(Majorly Focusing on this project though).
We did had a joint venture(had it not been the situation) that was going fine. PAK-US relation are pretty good at this point and it's not like we want the F-35 or something.It's a venture of sorts.
I wonder if they have tried it?

AZM is not about the short term. If it was, we can buy off the shelf. US PAK relations are fine for now, but that is for now. AZM is meant to be ITAR free, it cannot be if Grumman is onboard.