Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[IblinI]

15 December 2010 Defense Industry Executive Board (SSIK) -
Start of contract negotiations with TAI for TFX conceptual Design Project. (Feasibility phase)

Phase 0 - Conceptual Design Period 2011 - 2014
29 September 2011 SSIK: Signing of the TFX conceptual design contract. Determination of requirements and conceptualization phase. The state contribution is about $ 20 million.

2012 - Conceptual Design Period started

2012 - Undersecretariat for defense industry ( now SSB ) agreed with SAAB for Technical Support and Assistance Provider (TSAP).

September 2013 - Different design alternatives for TFX identified; the operational concept was defined and the general requirements were shaped.

2014 - Conceptual design phase completed with a delay of 4 months.

2014 - Request for proposal document sent to Engine companies. (EuroJet, General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, Rosoboronexport and Snecma)

2015 - A Request for proposal document for the 'Foreign Cooperation Company' within the scope of preparations for the Preliminary Design Period has been released. (Saab, BAE Systems, Airbus, CASIC, Aermacchi and Sierra Nevada Corporation)

Phase-1 Stage-1 / 05 August 2016 - Signing of the Articles of Association with contractors and official implementation of the project.

January 28, 2017 - Head of Agreement was signed with BAE Systems within the scope of TF-X Development Programme Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase, which covers the design, development, production, test and certification studies of MMU/TFX prototypes. The cooperation came into force in August 2017. The deal's value $ 156 million.

2017 - Engine negotiations started with Rolls Royce.
2017 - Inter-state cooperation agreement was signed, between UK and Turkey. UK Department for International Trade brought an Open General Export License (OGEL) into effect on July 28, 2017.

July 2018 - An agreement was signed between BAE and TAI on risk reduction of project.

2018 - Wind tests started in England. (Turkey's new test site was under construction at that time.)

July 1, 2019 - Mock-up exhibited at the Paris Air Show. (The final geometry is complete and system integration will proceed through this geometry.)

March 2018 - New block High Performance Computing System (10.000-core computer) installation completed.

April 2018 - Dassault Systemes and TAI sign a cooperation agreement on software support. ( 3DEXPERIENCE platform)

May 2018 - The design phase of the TFX project was included in the Project Based Incentive System, with approximately $ 1 billion.

2018 - Negotiations with many subsystem manufacturers, especially Leonardo, started under ToT preconditions.

April 2018 - A preliminary agreement was signed between TAI and ASELSAN for some avionics packages of TFX Project , such as indigenous AESA radar, EW suites and electro-optical (IRIST) systems

2018 - Collaboration agreements of technical universities started to be signed. A guest engineer program was prepared.

August 2, 2018 - state support of approximately $ 1.2 billion was announced. In addition, VAT refund, tax deduction, interest support will be provided; half of the energy consumption expenditures will be covered by the state state.

Within the same scope, the project was legally secured for 15 years.

November 2018 - SSB and TRMOTOR have signed the next generation Indigenous Engine Development Program Framework Agreement for TFX.

November 2018 - General Electric F110-GE engine has been decided to be used in prototypes. (total 7 aircraft)

Phase-1 Stage-2 / 2020/2021 - Completion of preliminary design phase and transition to detail design phase. At the end of the preliminary design phase, a continuous transition is envisaged for the following periods and phases of the Project.

--------------------------------

2023 - According to the schedule, the Roll-Out Ceremony will be held and ground tests will be started.

2025 - Realization of the first flight.

2028 - Completion of prototype and qualification phase - Initiation of Air Force Command tests. Starting the IOC phase for TFX version 1.

2031 - Beginning of FOC phase

--------------------------------

"Scheduled Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase is expected to cost around US$1.3 Billion and to be followed by 8-year scheduled Critical Design Review and Prototype Production and Qualification Phases, which planned to cost around US$7.3 Billion. At the end of 12-year and US$8.6 Billion expenses seven flying TF-X prototypes will be manufactured for the test, evaluation and qualification purposes. Another US$14 billion is earmarked for the serial production of the TF-X fighters, bringing the total budget for the project to US$20 billion." (Taken from the Ibrahim Sunnetci's article which is published at Defence Turkey's 83rd issue.)

A question here, it takes the American 8 years after the first flight to ioc , Chinese 7 years, but Turkey 3 years?

 

[Rana4pak]

Pakistan is going to collaborate with Turkey in 5th generation programme according to media news .run at 92 news channel

 

[PakShaheen79]

If Turkey will be going to prototype phase in 2030 despite having sound economy and access to European tech, i wonder how much time Pakistan's efforts for the same would take? I think Pakistan must go for another JV with China for PAF-FGFA ... no need to repeat the mistake India made when She decided to make everything in India in LCA!

 

[Silicon0000]

Pakistan model and Turkish Model are different and have different development style. Turkish Model is more like any other country type. It's not right to relates Turkish things with Pakistan. Pakistan is going to have 5th Gen with mature Chinese (mainly) tech and other countries tech and needs few things to develop and mainly need time to master the expertise, available knowledge, skills and development process (which requires comparitively much less time). Trust me Pakistan will get 5th Gen when it need are forced by India to us. Until then pass time in defence.pk

 

[dBSPL]

A question here, it takes the American 8 years after the first flight to ioc , Chinese 7 years, but Turkey 3 years?

Well, that's right, but the company director(TAI) prof.dr. Temel Kotil explained it a couple times, in his interviews.

I think there are several factors related to this issue: 1- project modeling is going a little different from the traditional process. When the project reaches the IOC phase, it will actually be a much more mature system. In connection with this: The first project of Tusaş is Hurjet LIFT/OCU and light attack jet. Unlike a traditional training jet, the Hurjet project aims to be a product of current (4+) combat jet standards as short-range primary combat jet. The cross-platform feature will allow many of the steps required for TFX to be resolved on Hurjet.

In addition, the top companies of the Turkish aviation industry like ALP, ELMO, AYESAŞ, HAVELSAN, KALE, MIKES, TAI,underwent a major transformation within the scope of the US JSF project. Since the early 2000s, US began to be transferred the JSF-relevant machinery and operations to Turkey , according to work share. And independently of the JSF project; a number of critical projects in the structural, micro and material/metalurgy technologies, with a total value exceeding billions of dollars; It represents the pre-2016 preparation of the TFX project. In order for Turkish aviation to continue its progress in terms of its position, a project like TFX had to be launched. However, we anticipated that this would be done like South Korea, i mean gradual.

2- Turkey quite prepared, especially in the avionics field . Since the early 2000s, many indigenous work and integration projects have been carried out starting from the F-16 b30 and RF-4E platforms. The most important of one was the OZGUR program, which includes the national mission computer and related subsystems. In 2018, a preliminary contract was signed with Aselsan which includes national radar, ew suits and situational awareness systems. Products in this area are almost ready. Aselsan is becoming one of the world's leading companies, especially in GaN-based solutions.

The first generation examples of many sub-systems that will be integrated into airframe of TFX project in the future were introduced and start to using as external Pods on F-16 platforms. Or they have become matured projects, starting to take place in product catalogs.

3- Structural areas, particularly in areas where no presence of Turkey's manufacturing operations, continues a series of interviews for 2 years, mainly Italian Leonardo and british companies. The conceptual design process was carried out under the consultancy of SAAB, now the design process continues with the BAE. This shows that the BAE cooperation will continue in the further stages of the project. There are very important strategic agreements signed between the two states, related to TFX collobrations. Even if GE is the choice for prototype production, we will probably see R&R cooperation in the field of engine also.

For all these reasons, Kotil stated in many interviews that TFX achieved minumum 1-year improvement in its first flight target. Yet, even within a three-to-five-year framework, the transition from the IOC to the FOC is a very ambitious approach. Personally, I see a few years delay here.

But on the other hand, When Turkey's air force tradition and TFX's importance is considered, the state will never allow this process to turn into a black hole. Here, just like TAI's previous projects; it will create a quick solution, and after then increase the rate of domesticity over time, probably.

 

[dBSPL]

Pakistan model and Turkish Model are different and have different development style. Turkish Model is more like any other country type. It's not right to relates Turkish things with Pakistan. Pakistan is going to have 5th Gen with mature Chinese (mainly) tech and other countries tech and needs few things to develop and mainly need time to master the expertise, available knowledge, skills and development process (which requires comparitively much less time). Trust me Pakistan will get 5th Gen when it need are forced by India to us. Until then pass time in defence.pk

What if a cooperation framework is established in AZM and MMU projects, together with Chinese technical support? I mean, not a common aircraft; both dedicated for its countries unique needs , but have common logistic and training infrastructure.

So, Pakistan can work with China for new airframe, while TAI can work with BAE support. However, the common infrastructure and integration standard will make the risk management of both countries more predictable. Also, kind of cooperation like this, can improve logistic secure, during the operational periods of these aircrafts.

What will this do? aircraft industry capacity of both countries will be able to produce for both countries. In addition, both air forces will reach common standards. This will allow both countries to pursue a stronger foreign policy.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Pakistan model and Turkish Model are different and have different development style. Turkish Model is more like any other country type. It's not right to relates Turkish things with Pakistan. Pakistan is going to have 5th Gen with mature Chinese (mainly) tech and other countries tech and needs few things to develop and mainly need time to master the expertise, available knowledge, skills and development process (which requires comparitively much less time). Trust me Pakistan will get 5th Gen when it need are forced by India to us. Until then pass time in defence.pk

Getting chinese equipment is not same as manufacturing Indigenous ones. The imports of arms will always be expensive and time consuming. The repairs will be difficult without spare parts and codes. Moreover, very few countries would sell their state of the art planes as they fear reverse engineering or selling the technology to rivals for favours.

Well, that's right, but the company director(TAI) prof.dr. Temel Kotil explained it a couple times, in his interviews.

I think there are several factors related to this issue: 1- project modeling is going a little different from the traditional process. When the project reaches the IOC phase, it will actually be a much more mature system. In connection with this: The first project of Tusaş is Hurjet LIFT/OCU and light attack jet. Unlike a traditional training jet, the Hurjet project aims to be a product of current (4+) combat jet standards as short-range primary combat jet. The cross-platform feature will allow many of the steps required for TFX to be resolved on Hurjet.

In addition, the top companies of the Turkish aviation industry like ALP, ELMO, AYESAŞ, HAVELSAN, KALE, MIKES, TAI,underwent a major transformation within the scope of the US JSF project. Since the early 2000s, US began to be transferred the JSF-relevant machinery and operations to Turkey , according to work share. And independently of the JSF project; a number of critical projects in the structural, micro and material/metalurgy technologies, with a total value exceeding billions of dollars; It represents the pre-2016 preparation of the TFX project. In order for Turkish aviation to continue its progress in terms of its position, a project like TFX had to be launched. However, we anticipated that this would be done like South Korea, i mean gradual.

2- Turkey quite prepared, especially in the avionics field . Since the early 2000s, many indigenous work and integration projects have been carried out starting from the F-16 b30 and RF-4E platforms. The most important of one was the OZGUR program, which includes the national mission computer and related subsystems. In 2018, a preliminary contract was signed with Aselsan which includes national radar, ew suits and situational awareness systems. Products in this area are almost ready. Aselsan is becoming one of the world's leading companies, especially in GaN-based solutions.

The first generation examples of many sub-systems that will be integrated into airframe of TFX project in the future were introduced and start to using as external Pods on F-16 platforms. Or they have become matured projects, starting to take place in product catalogs.

3- Structural areas, particularly in areas where no presence of Turkey's manufacturing operations, continues a series of interviews for 2 years, mainly Italian Leonardo and british companies. The conceptual design process was carried out under the consultancy of SAAB, now the design process continues with the BAE. This shows that the BAE cooperation will continue in the further stages of the project. There are very important strategic agreements signed between the two states, related to TFX collobrations. Even if GE is the choice for prototype production, we will probably see R&R cooperation in the field of engine also.

For all these reasons, Kotil stated in many interviews that TFX achieved minumum 1-year improvement in its first flight target. Yet, even within a three-to-five-year framework, the transition from the IOC to the FOC is a very ambitious approach. Personally, I see a few years delay here.

But on the other hand, When Turkey's air force tradition and TFX's importance is considered, the state will never allow this process to turn into a black hole. Here, just like TAI's previous projects; it will create a quick solution, and after then increase the rate of domesticity over time, probably.

Turkey is not getting any meaningful contribution from BAE except consultancy. BAE refused to share any Technology. Italy or any other country will only give manufactured items but will not give any technology or machinery. USA has not given any technology to Turkey except manufacturing of simpler parts of airframe. Turkey only integrates avionics but can't manufacture or code avionics. This means that Turkey technology is limited to just assembling.

The main drawback is that of semiconductor. Without semiconductor wafer fabrication, there is no way any computerised equipment or parts like avionics, FBW etc can be manufactured. Secondly, Turkey has no industry to make engines or complex metallurgical items. This also reduces the speed at which Turkey can progress in its project. I wonder how will Turkey develop engines, semiconductor, avionics and then write codes in just 10-15 years. Development 9f semiconductor, even to 180nm lithography ( developed in 2000) needed for modern planes will take 15-20 years if starting from scratch.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Getting chinese equipment is not same as manufacturing Indigenous ones. The imports of arms will always be expensive and time consuming. The repairs will be difficult without spare parts and codes. Moreover, very few countries would sell their state of the art planes as they fear reverse engineering or selling the technology to rivals for favours.

For project AZM we started to doing research mainly at avionics/Radars (AESA) arena, we had have a TOT for licences production for our Mirages ROSE upgrades from Italy, the main concern about Project AZM are how to develop composite materials and engine for it, May be engine comes from China in form of WS-13 or it improve forms WS-19

 

[princefaisal]

For project AZM we started to doing research mainly at avionics/Radars (AESA) arena, we had have a TOT for licences production for our Mirages ROSE upgrades from Italy, the main concern about Project AZM are how to develop composite materials and engine for it, May be engine comes from China in form of WS-13 or it improve forms WS-19

Engine will come from outside but for composite material, Pakistan will have to ask China or other friendly country for transfer of technology.

 

[bananarepublic]

Engine will come from outside but for composite material, Pakistan will have to ask China or other friendly country for transfer of technology.

Pakistan is working on indigenous solutions for its 5th Gen plane except for engine which currently Pakistan is negotiating with Russia and Chinese.
Perhaps the most important question i think is that wether the munitions is being developed separatly so that they can be tested and used on the jf-17 early..

 

[Ultima Thule]

Engine will come from outside but for composite material, Pakistan will have to ask China or other friendly country for transfer of technology.

No we should develop it from our own it will take more time but for sure gains/increase our knowledge massively, and how about if China will gives us second/third grade composite material technology to Pakistan, they wont shares us composite material tech that used in J-20/J-31/FC-31 bro

 

[DrWatson775]

No we should develop it from our own it will take more time but for sure gains/increase our knowledge massively, and how about if China will gives us second/third grade composite material technology to Pakistan, they wont shares us composite material tech that used in J-20/J-31/FC-31 bro

Probably correct, however Pakistan would have some knowledge in material sciences gained from the Army's missile program.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Probably correct, however Pakistan would have some knowledge in material sciences gained from the Army's missile program.

Missiles have a different different composite materials than developing stealth jets, Missiles's composites materials are for basically to absorb thermals and weight managements, not specifically develop for absorbing radio waves

 

[dBSPL]

The main drawback is that of semiconductor. Without semiconductor wafer fabrication, there is no way any computerised equipment or parts like avionics, FBW etc can be manufactured. Secondly, Turkey has no industry to make engines or complex metallurgical items. This also reduces the speed at which Turkey can progress in its project. I wonder how will Turkey develop engines, semiconductor, avionics and then write codes in just 10-15 years. Development 9f semiconductor, even to 180nm lithography ( developed in 2000) needed for modern planes will take 15-20 years if starting from scratch.

The Turkish defense industry's semiconductor needs are mainly provided by YITAL, a subsidiary Lab of TUBITAK. However, even though YITAL continues its scientific studies within TUBITAK; it became an indipendent company with TUBITAK, Aselsan and SSB subsidiaries, in 2017. In other words, it is the reliable semi-conductor manufacturing house of the defense industry while efforts are continuing to increase the production scale. YITAL was established for conducting research in the fields of semiconductor technology in 1983.

After company incorporation, In the first stage, production processes in technologies critical to the country have been developed. Such as uncooled infrared detectors, radar signal processing circuits and production of national microprocessors has been ensured. In addition, the semiconductor detectors used in missile systems such as Mini Smart Ammunition (MAM-L) and CIRIT, the basic ammunition of Armed Unmanned Aerial Vehicles , were produced with YITAL's photodetector technology. Also new Goktuğ A-A missile family,which being develope using YITAL semiconductors like all other Roketsan and SAGE missiles.

YITAL currently developing the 0,25 μm 5 met al CMOS and SiGeC HBT BiCMOS processes. YITAL, which develops it’s original production processes, has reached present position by developing BIPOLAR technology, 3 μm 1,5 μm and 0,7 μm CMOS technologies and producing low-volume integrated circuits (IC).

YITAL has the infrastructure which enables to implement IC design, mask production, wafer processing, wafer probing, packaging, circuit test and aging processes.

For the first time in 1999, the ICs containing national crypto algorithms used TUBITAK UEKAE’s cryptographic devices is designed and manufactured with YITAL CMOS processes. From this date, the institute’s crypto ICs are designed and manufactured at YITAL. YITAL team has designed Turkey’s first National Smart Card IC with the use of combined power coming from extensive experience in IC design and the knowledge of secure circuit design captured through 6th Framework Programme. These ICs are currently in use. Interface Communication Card is implemented with the use of YITAL ICs. These ICs are manufactured with high volt age 24 V CMOS process which is specially developed for this work.

Additionally, radon gas and photodetector production processes are developed. Detectors produced with these processes are widely used with success in applications oriented towards Turkey’s needs. YITAL, parallel to Turkey’s objectives in the field of space, is conducting research space-grade IC manufacturing technology. Within this scope, there is an ongoing effort to develop SOI CMOS process.

YITAL is in collaboration with various universities providing support to master’s and doctoral programs which will benefit of Turkey’s semiconductor technology and electronic design capability. Developing advanced semiconductor manufacturing processes and having security products used in Turkey’s critical applications manufactured with this processes, YITAL has the capability of converting a design on paper to a packaged and tested IC with national resources.

In short, consumer market and national security needs are quite different issues. If you try to ask first rather than pontificating , we can maintain a healthier communication.

If our Pakistani brothers are not angry that I went out of the topic, I will respond to other claims which are equally deprived of knowledge..

*

However, you can start from here: No further export licences will be needed for the transfer of individual pieces of equipment or technology from the UK to Turkey

or here: The quality of the skilled Turkish engineers and technicians, alongside the incentive schemes that encourage further in-country research and development, demonstrates the nation’s increasing stature as an increasingly valued partner for knowledge-share and genuine technology transfer.

or here: Rolls Royce offer to co-develop, in collaboration with Turkish industry, a new fast jet engine for the TF-X programme will soon be agreed upon.

or here: Partnerships with UK Companies Sharpening Turkey’s Technological & Manufacturing Edge via Knowledge Transfer

or here: The Turkish defence and aerospace industry has been strengthening its position in the world market today with its turnover reaching approximately to US$6.7 billion and its exports reaching US$1.8 billion

I recommend you to come to the Turkish forum about the subsystem projects, which is the strongest part of the Turkish defense industry. Because I need to write dozens of pages.

 

[LKJ86]

May be engine comes from China in form of WS-13 or it improve forms WS-19

WS-13 and WS-19 are two completely different engines.