Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[帅的一匹]

Just a few words on J-31 and AZM in general. I'm sure any potential customer of Avic would be given full test data involving flight envelope/rcs/subsystem ...etc, and PAF will choose the most optimal solution accordingly be it CAC/SAC/TFX...etc.

It's not like Avic can dupe PAF into buying inferior fighter despite what some people might think. Those are just business deal, no feelings need to be involved.

PAF is very professional force, they have all the know-how and strict benchmark to select the partner they think is the best available.

They never decide upon on passionate or objective feeling.

They choose the best offer from China/Turkey/Russia/USA/UK.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The person I noted is well known on this forum and you'll just have to look it up, there is a search function that is very useful. I'm sorry you feel insulted.

You've come up with a lot of numbers, but I am not sure where those numbers are from. Suffice it to say, I'm not putting the same level of trust as you on the WS-19 (we are yet to see the WS-13 in production!).

A wing like an F-22's, is designed with a certain general parameter in mind - what altitude and speeds it is appropriate for. For instance, if you design a wing for an optimal supercruising profile at 40,000+ feet, then you put in engines that won't let the aircraft supercruise, you're creating a sub-optimal solution.

The issue becomes more complicated when you realize that, very roughly and broadly speaking, wing area is very important for high altitude flight. (the air is less dense up there, to have the same level of control authority, you need larger surfaces). However, again, oversimplifying the issue, larger the wing area, other things held constant, the greater the drag.

In this regard, if you take a look at the F-22's wings, or the Eurofighter's wings, or the Su-57's wings, and then take a look at the J-31, you can see the difference. Some of us may choose not to - because our patriotism may or may not blind us (and I mean you no insult), but there you have it.

why are you're looking at the wings of different mission profile jets, look F-22/Su-57/J-20 balance b/w speed/maneuverability/agility but the main mission for those jet are air defense/ air superiority to knock down opponents in BVR arena with minimal emphasis on CAS/Strike/SEAD/DEAD role


J-31 will going to be multi role jet, just like F-35 and other multi role jets with CAS/strike/SEAD/DEAD first priority and will have AD missions as a second priority, so your comparisons of J-31 with F-22/SU-57/J-20 is totally wrong and strike jets needs more loitering time/time on station as targets as appear less similar to those of UCAVs, that why most 3rd and 4th gen strike jets had/have swing wing/variable geometry wings Jets @Armchair
and fighter jet designed and develop on mission specification not aesthetics/beauty @Armchair

 

[Shabi1]

Came across something interesting. Apparently a more stealthy J-10D is in the works. Not much information on the internet available yet. So this could be another air frame PAF could look at for it's needs.

China never ceases to amaze.

 

[bananarepublic]

Came across something interesting. Apparently a more stealthy J-10D is in the works. Not much information on the internet available yet. So this could be another air frame PAF could look at for it's needs.

China never ceases to amaze.

Someone also posted this once here i dont remember who did but it was some Chinese member.
It seems to be a stealthy JF-17

 

[CriticalThought]

Just a few words on J-31 and AZM in general. I'm sure any potential customer of Avic would be given full test data involving flight envelope/rcs/subsystem ...etc, and PAF will choose the most optimal solution accordingly be it CAC/SAC/TFX...etc.

It's not like Avic can dupe PAF into buying inferior fighter despite what some people might think. Those are just business deal, no feelings need to be involved.

The fact of the matter is that J-31 and J-20 are both highly secretive and evolving platforms and not much is known about them except a few videos and whatever specs have been publicly shared. From what I can see, China is using J-20 to formulate its modern war fighting strategy. There will be a feedback loop of design, test, validate, repeat. This is just as expected, any proper engineering effort would be the same. To put down China using harsh, condescending language is plain rude. The person you are engaging in debate goes around opinionating on things he should not be opinionating on. He belongs to a self-reinforcing clique of mediocres on the forum and I have suspicions some of them have ulterior motives about shaping public opinion. Just understand he does not represent all Pakistanis.

 

[enroger]

why are you're looking at the wings of different mission profile jets, look F-22/Su-57/J-20 balance b/w speed/maneuverability/agility but the main mission for those jet are air defense/ air superiority to knock down opponents in BVR arena with minimal emphasis on CAS/Strike/SEAD/DEAD role


J-31 will going to be multi role jet, just like F-35 and other multi role jets with CAS/strike/SEAD/DEAD first priority and will have AD missions as a second priority, so your comparisons of J-31 with F-22/SU-57/J-20 is totally wrong and strike jets needs more loitering time/time on station as targets as appear less similar to those of UCAVs, that why most 3rd and 4th gen strike jets had/have swing wing/variable geometry wings Jets @Armchair
and fighter jet designed and develop on mission specification not aesthetics/beauty @Armchair

Just to add on your points:

J-31 represents a class of 5th gen that utilize conventional layout, and if we were to further group up 5th gen conventional layout medium/light fighters, we find the likes of J-31, F-35, TFX (C100), KFX and Shinshin.

If you compare their top view you'll find they all share very similar cropped delta wings with small variations in parameters such as sweep/aspect ration ...etc. This is no surprise as all of them are trying to optimize similar sets of parameters to offer a more balanced performance, If the designers prefer to prioritize trans-sonic and super-sonic performance they will pick small aspect ratio delta-wings instead.

F-22 is still a class of her own, she has excellent super-sonic performance while having conventional layout of medium aspect ratio, this is simply due to the powerful F119 engines. J-20 will have to wait for WS-15 to match that kind of ability.

The point to take away is that designers design their planes with requirements from air-doctrine and the capabilities of their industry in mind.

PAF is very professional force, they have all the know-how and strict benchmark to select the partner they think is the best available.

They never decide upon on passionate or objective feeling.

They choose the best offer from China/Turkey/Russia/USA/UK.

Indeed, I was just clarifying this point in case someone thinks I'm a sales representative from SAC...

Someone also posted this once here i dont remember who did but it was some Chinese member.
It seems to be a stealthy JF-17View attachment 477091

Actually it was SAC's snow owl, it was a contender against J-20 from CAC and lost the competition.

The fact of the matter is that J-31 and J-20 are both highly secretive and evolving platforms and not much is known about them except a few videos and whatever specs have been publicly shared. From what I can see, China is using J-20 to formulate its modern war fighting strategy. There will be a feedback loop of design, test, validate, repeat. This is just as expected, any proper engineering effort would be the same. To put down China using harsh, condescending language is plain rude. The person you are engaging in debate goes around opinionating on things he should not be opinionating on. He belongs to a self-reinforcing clique of mediocres on the forum and I have suspicions some of them have ulterior motives about shaping public opinion. Just understand he does not represent all Pakistanis.

Thanks man, Lets put all that behind and talk fighters!

 

[Armchair]

Fantastic designs, I like the @Shabi1 J-10-D. Though not a 5th gen, it seems to be in a class of its own, the CG looks like a Rafale / Eurofighter type.

The other design shared by @bananarepublic - one does look like a stealthy JF-17 with twin engines, and the other a stealth FLANKER.

This is a lot more exciting than the bland KFX / Shinshin / TFX / etc.

I think there are basically three possibilities:

1. A home-grown stealth JF-17 twin engined with a weapons bay.
2. The CAC equivalent of the J-31 (surely it has one, just like the contest wich yielded the J-20)
3. An updated and customized J-31.

I believe that the PAF requirement is for, first and foremost, an air-superiority platform, not a multi-role. Strike being a secondary consideration. This is how F-16s are seen in the PAF. PAF also has a healthy stable of multiroles in the JF-17. This means that the fundamental requirements and parameters are going to be different than with the F-35 wannabees.

Its also wrong to assume that the ShinShin or the TFX are meant to be F-35 type aircraft. Their basic planeform may be similar, but their role and requirements are very different.

If I were a betting man, my bet would be on 1, 2 and 3. It is also possible PAF will buy some J-31 as stop-gap. But it all depends on the engines.

 

[帅的一匹]

Someone also posted this once here i dont remember who did but it was some Chinese member.
It seems to be a stealthy JF-17View attachment 477091

It's a tri-surface designed by SAC to compete with J20 for PLAAF's 5th gen bidding, it loose to J20 in the end.
Brother, if you look carefully the fighter in the picture has two engines. So definitely it's not JF17.

Came across something interesting. Apparently a more stealthy J-10D is in the works. Not much information on the internet available yet. So this could be another air frame PAF could look at for it's needs.

China never ceases to amaze.

I think it's J10D, A semi-stealthy design. Look at the belly intake. The design experience might help to apply on JF17 evolve in the future.

The fact of the matter is that J-31 and J-20 are both highly secretive and evolving platforms and not much is known about them except a few videos and whatever specs have been publicly shared. From what I can see, China is using J-20 to formulate its modern war fighting strategy. There will be a feedback loop of design, test, validate, repeat. This is just as expected, any proper engineering effort would be the same. To put down China using harsh, condescending language is plain rude. The person you are engaging in debate goes around opinionating on things he should not be opinionating on. He belongs to a self-reinforcing clique of mediocres on the forum and I have suspicions some of them have ulterior motives about shaping public opinion. Just understand he does not represent all Pakistanis.

I think he doesn't have ulterior motives, he just doesn't know China's progress very well cause he can't read Chinese source. Too much propaganda from the west media nowadays. I suggest all Pakistanis who want to know China well, to learn Chinese language at your convenience. It will help a lot.
Lots of misunderstanding is caused by language barrier, and lacking of the proper source to get up to speed.

www.cjdby.net will be a good site to start with.

Some of the insider or experts were restricted posting here or they can't write English discussing profound and complicated things like aviation. Maybe they can use google translation. 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999+% Chinese don't know PDF.

 

[enroger]

We were discussing this back in Chinese BBS, I believe CAC is more likely to design a brand new aircraft than to modifying J-10. The Chief designer of J-20 Yang Wei once publicly state that it is extremely difficult to convert non-LO platform into stealthy platform, every rivet counts he said.

 

[帅的一匹]

We were discussing this back in Chinese BBS, I believe CAC is more likely to design a brand new aircraft than to modifying J-10. The Chief designer of J-20 Yang Wei once publicly state that it is extremely difficult to convert non-LO platform into stealthy platform, every rivet counts he said.

But a single engine stealthy fighter will not feature a stick-out IRST.

What exactly is this cockpit for?

 

[enroger]

But a single engine stealthy fighter will not feature a stick-out IRST.

What exactly is this cockpit for?

Good point, a new 5th gen is more likely to use EOTS like J-20. I don't know the answer to that.

 

[LKJ86]

Maybe just for demonstration.

 

[Shabi1]

But a single engine stealthy fighter will not feature a stick-out IRST.

What exactly is this cockpit for?

The SU-57 has a IRST sticking out.

 

[帅的一匹]

The SU-57 has a IRST sticking out.

That's partial why it has 0.5 SQM RCS.

 

[tarrar]

Is there any progress in the Project or we only going to continue reading articles?