Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[HAIDER]

The bigger question is that how will the s400 distinguish between a cheap dud and an actual missile? How would it even know if what it's tracking and engaging even there or not?

Its cost Israel a million dollar to shutdown Palastinian home made few dollar missile.

 

[SBD-3]

Intercepting cheap duds results in wasting of expensive interceptor missiles and valuable time in reloading the batteries during which real missiles fly thru. It's common sense.

In a war or threat, I don't think anyone can afford to trying and differentiating if the missile is a dud or active one. And TBH there's no measure for measuring the dudness of a missile from radar. So everything is a fair game.

Its cost Israel a million dollar to shutdown Palastinian home made few dollar missile.

But still to them worth the cost than having those rockets falling in Israel and loss of lives. How much does a suicide bomber spend to suit-up? not much but how many lives he can take. Not everything is about money

 

[GumNaam]

In a war or threat, I don't think anyone can afford to trying and differentiating if the missile is a dud or active one. And TBH there's no measure for measuring the dudness of a missile from radar. So everything is a fair game.


But still to them worth the cost than having those rockets falling in Israel and loss of lives. How much does a suicide bomber spend? not much but how many lives he can take. Not everything is about money

You just made my point.

But still to them worth the cost than having those rockets falling in Israel and loss of lives. How much does a suicide bomber spend to suit-up? not much but how many lives he can take. Not everything is about money

The only advantage isreal has is the adversary can't afford to made duds and thus overwhelm the isreali defenses.

 

[HAIDER]

S-400 has 4 missiles ranging from as little as 20 to as much as 400 KM. Even if 400KM is not the efficient frontier 300KM would count as a good kill zone. And the max-range stand off weapon we have is that of having 250KM still not a promising picture.

The most advance, tested and update is US made Patriot PAC3 , even that has many short coming. It recently failed to intercept Yemani centuries old scud.

In a war or threat, I don't think anyone can afford to trying and differentiating if the missile is a dud or active one. And TBH there's no measure for measuring the dudness of a missile from radar. So everything is a fair game.


But still to them worth the cost than having those rockets falling in Israel and loss of lives. How much does a suicide bomber spend to suit-up? not much but how many lives he can take. Not everything is about money

These few dollar missile causing huge defence spending for Isrealies. Because they activate there whole defence system and missile auto flew behind any incoming projectile from certain radius.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

He is right Abu Namr. No terrorism on Indian soil equates no Indian response. The S-400s and Ghauris can be given a peaceful burial and we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya.

it means you want to burry the policy of offensive defence ,thats a news but Ajit Doval might not welcome it . I can see the pain when other side uses offensive defence against you . However the policy of offensive defence is terrorism for other side . do you want to come out of it ? Resolve Kashmir issue and live peacefully .

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Its cost Israel a million dollar to shutdown Palastinian home made few dollar missile.

That is because Israel was not conducting artillery strikes against origin sites of those rockets due to international pressure. SoP in case of a rocket/artillery strike is to saturate source with counter battery fire, which if done in Gaza would mean death of every Palestinian and international sanction and condemnation that accompanies it.


All saturation fantasies assume that whole of IAF and rest of SAMs (Spyder, Pantsir, Akash, S-300, whole zoo of soviet era SAMs) and Anti-Aircrafts guns would take a day off so that PAF could have a fair fight against S-400.

In a war or threat, I don't think anyone can afford to trying and differentiating if the missile is a dud or active one. And TBH there's no measure for measuring the dudness of a missile from radar. So everything is a fair game.

A dud and working missile cost same. You could field different systems ,one costlier and one cheaper, but in that case Radar would be able to make out which is what and leave interception of 'dudder' system to cheaper interceptors or AA guns.

mtcr means and enforces that the signatories will enforce they dont export missiles or missile components will a range of 300km. india will need some kind of waiver

MTCR is a missile control regime, not even a treaty. There is no legal obligation on anyone to abide by its rule so no waiver would be required.

Also SAMs are not in export control list of MTCR as they do not satisfy criterion on MTCR.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/mtcr

The MTCR identifies five factors that members should take into account when evaluating a possible export of controlled items:

• Whether the intended recipient is pursuing or has ambitions for acquiring weapons of mass destruction;
• The purposes and capabilities of the intended recipient's missile and space programs;
• The potential contribution the proposed transfer could make to the intended recipient's development of delivery systems for weapons of mass destruction;
• The credibility of the intended recipient's stated purpose for the purchase; and
• Whether the potential transfer conflicts with any multilateral treaty.

MTCR members are asked to obtain an assurance from the intended recipient that it will only use the export for the purpose claimed when requesting the deal. Members are also to secure a pledge from the intended recipient that it will not transfer the requested item or any replicas or derivatives to a third party without permission.

Or you could take a look at whole annex:

https://fas.org/nuke/control/mtcr/text/mtcr_handbook_guide-annex.pdf

Some parts of S-400 are listed under annex-II ,which urges members to consider end use, and this is implicitely not applied on SAMs.

You don't get it, just cuz you have the range doesn't mean you'll get it. Even with height and proximity fuses, the shells have to get pretty dang close which is very difficult for an unguided aa shell against a fast moving target that is changing directions.

I think that this talk about drones need to be settled.

CH-3/Burraq has a speed between range of 120-150 Km/hr, with a maximum speed of 220 Km/hr (claimed, never observed). IAF has three AA guns in service: ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-23-2 having a muzzle velocity of 980m/s, and Bofors 40mm with muzzle velocity of 1030 m/s.

Assume that Burraq is flying at its maximum possible altitude of 4Km: Applying newton's law, following is the time AA gun shell would need to reach Burraq, and the distance Burraq would have moved, even if it is traveling at its maximum possible speed, and the degree of deflection needed by the shell:

ZSU-23-4/2 :Time= 0.01457 second, Distance moved by Burraq at 220 Km/hr = 89 cm, degree of deflection: 0.8014 seconds.

Bofors 40mm: Time= 0.0138 second, Distance moved by Burraq at 220 Km/hr = 85 cm, degree of deflection: 0.763 seconds.

As you can see, even at its best, a CH-3 is as good as a stationary target.

Moral of the story: You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If there would have been cheap alternatives to SAMs, they would not have come into existence. All countermeasures against S-400 are very costly and at this time onle USA (probably Israel?) possess them.

I love it!!!
Burraq has already been used in combat killing multiple terrorists and he calls it a school project. So much for your credibility son!

Terrorist do not even have AA guns. They could even be bombed by this:

 

[HAIDER]

That is because Israel was not conducting artillery strikes against origin sites of those rockets due to international pressure. SoP in case of a rocket/artillery strike is to saturate source with counter battery fire, which if done in Gaza would mean death of every Palestinian and international sanction and condemnation that accompanies it.


All saturation fantasies assume that whole of IAF and rest of SAMs (Spyder, Pantsir, Akash, S-300, whole zoo of soviet era SAMs) and Anti-Aircrafts guns would take a day off so that PAF could have a fair fight against S-400.




A dud and working missile cost same. You could field different systems ,one costlier and one cheaper, but in that case Radar would be able to make out which is what and leave interception of 'dudder' system to cheaper interceptors or AA guns.




MTCR is a missile control regime, not even a treaty. There is no legal obligation on anyone to abide by its rule so no waiver would be required.

Also SAMs are not in export control list of MTCR as they do not satisfy criterion on MTCR.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/mtcr



Or you could take a look at whole annex:

https://fas.org/nuke/control/mtcr/text/mtcr_handbook_guide-annex.pdf

Some parts of S-400 are listed under annex-II ,which urges members to consider end use, and this is implicitely not applied on SAMs.




I think that this talk about drones need to be settled.

CH-3/Burraq has a speed between range of 120-150 Km/hr, with a maximum speed of 220 Km/hr (claimed, never observed). IAF has three AA guns in service: ZSU-23-4 and ZSU-23-2 having a muzzle velocity of 980m/s, and Bofors 40mm with muzzle velocity of 1030 m/s.

Assume that Burraq is flying at its maximum possible altitude of 4Km: Applying newton's law, following is the time AA gun shell would need to reach Burraq, and the distance Burraq would have moved, even if it is traveling at its maximum possible speed, and the degree of deflection needed by the shell:

ZSU-23-4/2 :Time= 0.01457 second, Distance moved by Burraq at 220 Km/hr = 89 cm, degree of deflection: 0.8014 seconds.

Bofors 40mm: Time= 0.0138 second, Distance moved by Burraq at 220 Km/hr = 85 cm, degree of deflection: 0.763 seconds.

As you can see, even at its best, a CH-3 is as good as a stationary target.

Moral of the story: You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If there would have been cheap alternatives to SAMs, they would not have come into existence. All countermeasures against S-400 are very costly and at this time onle USA (probably Israel?) possess them.



Terrorist do not even have AA guns. They could even be bombed by this:

Isreal SOP.....lolzz....seriously ........look at Gaza pics. and tell the world about SOP.

 

[dani958]

Its cost Israel a million dollar to shutdown Palastinian home made few dollar missile.

what you talking about?

 

[BABA AGHORI]

A S-400 batallion consists of 1 launch vehicle and supporting systems like radars etc.. not 72 launch vehicles... you idiot...

A regular S-400 battalion consists of at least eight launchers with 32 missiles and a mobile command post

 

[dani958]

why dont pakistan buy s 400 or aster?

 

[Allen Iverson]

The most advance, tested and update is US made Patriot PAC3 , even that has many short coming. It recently failed to intercept Yemani centuries old scud.

PAC-3 is the most advanced??? You should update yourself more on that front.. Centuries old scud?? May be few decades old.. I think u got it wrong..

 

[dani958]

PAC-3 is the most advanced??? You should update yourself more on that front.. Centuries old scud?? May be few decades old.. I think u got it wrong..

david sling more advenced then that

 

[BABA AGHORI]

doesn't matter. each battalion would have say N number of radars and each radar is limited to 36 maximum targets. All we have to do is launch 37xN number of missiles/drones/whatever.

All you need to do is to invest in 37+ anti radiation super sonic missiles, if you are dreaming of drones or sub sonic missiles then better forget it.

after that also pray that India did not deploy other SAMs to give a cover to S400 system.
Radar can track 37+ number of targets but only can engage 36 of them: That means system is ready to engage next 36 targets in few seconds of the 1st batch is brought down.

 

[United]

S-400 and S-300V4 fire control radars operating in C, X and Ku bands cannot paint low observable projectiles except at very close ranges
Improvised Missiles, Strike Force, PAF decoys..........can easily be used to counter this.

@Allen Iverson, @500, @BABA AGHORI, @HAIDER, @boomslang, @Starlord, @Lankan Ranger, @Esc8781, @Zain Malik, @MilSpec, @Indus Falcon, @F-22Raptor, @salarsikander, @MaXimMaRz

 

[500]

Its cost Israel a million dollar to shutdown Palastinian home made few dollar missile.

It costs Israel 50 K to shot down Iranian Fajr-5 rocket.