Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[Immortan.Joe]

the only proplem if they move the s400s deep inside india is that we won't be able to use drones and regular harm missiles to take them out. Then we'll have to rely on ballestic and cruise missiles to take them out. Babur will be very useful here as it can find gaps between enemy radar coverages and navigate between them giving them a nasty surprise out of no where. But Baburs are far more expensive than cheap, disposable drones that we can build and launch in huge numbers.

Baburs could only target fixed assets, and you need to get airborne in face of SAMs to even launch HARM (You do not have that. You have Brazilian copy of HARM- MAR1), and short range missiles of S-400 (the one with 250Km range has very high hit probability), thus short range Anti-radiation missiles increases vulnerability of your aircraft.

 

[Photon]

negative. each radar can track at most 36 targets, regardless of the number of missiles it has. one radar does NOT track 288 targets simultaneusly. It is 36 max per radar. So that means 296 missiles/drones/whatever you wanna call it can be launched against each of these 8 radars. Sure, throw 50 more on top to keep the pantsirs busy as well. Nothing that we can't easily attain.

Even a small BARS radar fitted on Sukhios can engage 8 targets simultaneously, while tracking 32. Here were talking about a huge truck mounted PESA.

S 400 Radar can track about 300 targets simultaneously, while engaging 36 targets simultaneously. i.e It can guide 36 missiles to 36 target in one go.

Once first engagement is over (couple of minutes at max), next set of 36 targets can be engaged.

Thousands of drones will required to be launched simultaneously to overwhelm the radar capacity of a single S -400 battalion.

 

[GumNaam]

Well, 6000 missiles translate into 125 battalions (Russian system in which each battalion is armed with 48 S-400 missiles). There would be some out of these 125 which would be placed close to Pakistani border to take out AWACS.

And close for S-400 could mean 100 Km inside the border.




India is not buying just one Radar. For controlling 6000 missiles, you would need minimum of 16 radars.

okay, so what? It's still dooable. The closer you are to the border, the deadlier our counter measures against your radar sites will become. In war time, it'll be overwhelmed almost instantaneously in trying to track and stop deadly armed drones. It won't even get a chance to track a single aircraft let alone the AWACS. For if it does, it will open itself to our missiles and drones making it through undetected even with the surrounding defences.

 

[CriticalThought]

Even a small BARS radar fitted on Sukhios can engage 8 targets simultaneously, while tracking 32. Here were talking about a huge truck mounted PESA.

S 400 Radar can track about 300 targets simultaneously, while engaging 36 targets simultaneously. i.e It can guide 36 missiles to 36 target in one go.

Once first engagement is over (couple of minutes at max), next set of 36 targets can be engaged.

Thousands of drones will required to be launched overwhelm radars of a single S -400 battalion.

But there is a window of opportunity in between for us, while the missiles are being reloaded.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

But there is a window of opportunity in between for us, while the missiles are being reloaded.

I do not think that there is option of reloading a S-400 battery in real time. They have monster sized missiles, and most of them would be kept in ready to fire mode.

A single radar could have upto 384 missiles slaved to it.

 

[GumNaam]

Baburs could only target fixed assets, and you need to get airborne in face of SAMs to even launch HARM (You do not have that. You have Brazilian copy of HARM- MAR1), and short range missiles of S-400 (the one with 250Km range has very high hit probability), thus short range Anti-radiation missiles increases vulnerability of your aircraft.

your radar is fixed in one place and getting is position is easy through it's own radiation. It is not mobile when in use so the Babar would be the perfect weapon to take out the radars IF it is deep inside india. The closer it is to the border, the cheaper the weapon we can use to take it out. The deeper you pull it back into indian territory, the harder it becomes to take out and thus, more expensive platforms like the Babur or Raad would have to be used. But then again, if you go 400 or more km inside the border then it's no worry to us anyway.

 

[CriticalThought]

I do not think that there is option of reloading a S-400 battery in real time. They have monster missiles in size, and most of them would be kept in ready to fire mode.

A single radar could have upto 384 missiles slaved to it.

Agreed. And it fires at least 2 missiles at one target. So that is 384 / 2 = 192 aircrafts in one go. Sounds within the realms of possibility to me.

 

[GumNaam]

Even a small BARS radar fitted on Sukhios can engage 8 targets simultaneously, while tracking 32. Here were talking about a huge truck mounted PESA.

S 400 Radar can track about 300 targets simultaneously, while engaging 36 targets simultaneously. i.e It can guide 36 missiles to 36 target in one go.

Once first engagement is over (couple of minutes at max), next set of 36 targets can be engaged.

Thousands of drones will required to be launched simultaneously to overwhelm the radar capacity of a single S -400 battalion.

not thousands, 300 or so IF that. The tracked ones are irrelevant. It's the engaged ones that matter, those are the ones you'll be wasting your missiles on and before you know it, at least one drone is guaranteed to make it to each radar and detonate above it. After that, the S400 is a dead duck. No radar = useless until it is replaced. And as I said earlier, those drones are very easy and cheap to make.
Let's face it. The S400 is useful in theatre defence where there is a big ocean in between you and the enemy. It's only useful if you take it deep in indian territory to avoid surprises. Being stationed close to the border is suicide for the S400. Albeit an expensive it is an expense but effective counter measure for us running into the millions, it will result billions of dollars worth of losses for india unless they are stationed 400 or 500 miles away..

 

[Photon]

But there is a window of opportunity in between for us, while the missiles are being reloaded.

Do you think S-400 will be deployed in isolation againt everything PAF can throw against it?

That Pakistan will able to launch hundreds of aircrafts simultaneously, while IAF will sit in their basis twiddling its thumbs

There will be no IAF aircrafts covering that sector.

Or Air defence artillery guns , other Indian SAMs like Akash , Barak , Spyder , Pechoras ?

 

[GumNaam]

I do not think that there is option of reloading a S-400 battery in real time. They have monster sized missiles, and most of them would be kept in ready to fire mode.

A single radar could have upto 384 missiles slaved to it.

uhm, NO. 72 at most. The others would have to be slaved AFTER those ones are fired. Reslaving can take up precious minutes.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/factbox-russias-s-400-air-defense-missile-system-41765

Capabilities: The system can effectively engage up to 36 targets within a 400 kilometer range with up to 72 missiles as once, according to the South China Morning Post. The S-400 also has some anti-ballistic missile capabilities, though they are less capable than the S-500 missile system, which is coming up in 2016, according to news reports.

Components: An S-400 division consists of eight surface-to-air missile launchers, each equipped with 32 missiles, as well as a mobile command center and radar stations. The makeup of the division can be tailored to fit the needs of the end user with various types of radar and various support vehicles. In short, an S-400 unit is a group of vehicles and equipment that work together to create a powerful air-defense system.

 

[CriticalThought]

Do you think S-400 will be deployed in isolation againt everything PAF can throw against it?

That Pakistan will able to launch hundreds of aircrafts simultaneously, while IAF will sit in their basis twiddling its thumbs

There will be no IAF aircrafts covering that sector.

Or Air defence artillery guns , other Indian SAMs like Akash , Barak , Spyder , Pechoras ?

Well, the drone swarm isn't the only thing we'll be sending out either. The swarm acts as decoys to confuse your air defense systems in general. I'll agree that this is all mere speculation, but I guess that's what the keyboard warriors on the forum love to do LOLs

 

[GumNaam]

Well, the drone swarm isn't the only thing we'll be sending out either. The swarm acts as decoys to confuse your air defense systems in general. I'll agree that this is all mere speculation, but I guess that's what the keyboard warriors on the forum love to do LOLs

it's not just speculation. similar concepts have already been developed and deployed by the usn and usaf.

 

[Photon]

not thousands, 300 or so IF that. The tracked ones are irrelevant. It's the engaged ones that matter, those are the ones you'll be wasting your missiles on and before you know it, at least one drone is guaranteed to make it to each radar and detonate above it. After that, the S400 is a dead duck. No radar = useless until it is replaced. And as I said earlier, those drones are very easy and cheap to make.
Let's face it. The S400 is useful in theatre defence where there is a big ocean in between you and the enemy. It's only useful if you take it deep in indian territory to avoid surprises. Being stationed close to the border is suicide for the S400. Albeit an expensive it is an expense but effective counter measure for us running into the millions, it will result billions of dollars worth of losses for india unless they are stationed 400 or 500 miles away..

It is unlikely S 400 batteries will even waste a single missile against the likes of unmanned drones.

Job of bringing down subsonic unmanned drone will be taken over by IAF aircrafts and Ack - Ack guns.

 

[GumNaam]

Do you think S-400 will be deployed in isolation againt everything PAF can throw against it?

That Pakistan will able to launch hundreds of aircrafts simultaneously, while IAF will sit in their basis twiddling its thumbs

There will be no IAF aircrafts covering that sector.

Or Air defence artillery guns , other Indian SAMs like Akash , Barak , Spyder , Pechoras ?

that's what you don't understand. Regardless of what you have, only a handful of counter measures are more than enough for neutralizing your assets. At close to border, the S400 is more of a liability than an asset.

It is unlikely S 400 batteries will even waste a single missile against the likes of unmanned drones.

Job of bringing down subsonic unmanned drone will be taken over by IAF aircrafts and Ack - Ack guns.

oh trust me, our counter measures against the S400 and the rest of your air defences, be they missiles or drones, won't be subsonic.

 

[CriticalThought]

it's not just speculation. similar concepts have already been developed and deployed by the usn and usaf.

Yeah, but I am of the school of thought that says everything is speculation until and unless proven in the real world. Maybe the US has 'proven it' somehow (the performance of their systems against the Houthi rebels seems to indicate their general lack of preparedness), but they aren't giving that technology to us. So there will be a lot of unknowns when all of this gets practiced in an actual battlefield scenario using real systems.