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Originally posted by tphuang@Nov 23 2005, 06:17 AM
miroslav, original Talwar and Delhi are not considered to be stealthy at all. Their original hulls were not designed with stealth in mind, but putting the most potent weapon systems on their.

As for detecting enemy ships, do you have any proof that IN ships have radars that powerful? Club and Brahmos are both 300 KM or under due to MTCR.

The upgraded Talwar and Delhi are considered to be more stealthy, but still cannot be considered stealthy. If you want to know what's stealthy, take a look at Lafayette.

PN definitely cannot withstand an IN attack, but you are overstating the capabilities of IN.
[post=3495]Quoted post[/post]​

Mr.TPHUANG,

in my entire post I haven't mentioned that Delhi's are stealthy. Did I?
Please enlight me.

I was mentioning the Type 15A Banglore Class stealth destroyers. Delhi's are technically Type 15 Destroyers, so please do not get confused.

Also TALWAR CLASS FIRGATES of the Indian Navy are originally modified KRIVAK-III class firgates which has stealth features.

Now regarding the weaponary radar guidence.

Delhi's

Radar: Air Surveillance; One MR-775 Fregat MAE (NATO: Half Plate) planar array radar.

Surface Surveillance; One Bharat RAWL (Dutch Signaal LW08) radar, operating at D-band frequency. INS Mysore also has SRA-01 IFF equipment atop the radar antenna.

Navigation; Three MR-212/201 navigation radars, operating at I-band, are mounted on the foremast. JRC SATCOM (Satellite Communication) equipment is standard on these vessels. INS Mumbai can be visually differentiated from INS Mysore by it's cylindrical SATCOM antenna.

Sonar: The first two vessels in the series - INS Delhi and INS Mysore - have a Bharat APSOH (Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull) hull-mounted sonar, which provides active search with medium frequency and a Garden Reach Model 15-750 variable depth sonar, also known as HUMVAAD, which is mounted in a Canadian Indal-designed 'fish' deployed from a ramp in the transom. INS Mumbai features more advanced sonar systems, namely a Thales ATAS (Advanced Towed Array Sonar) system and a Bharat HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) system.

Weapons and guidence systems: Sixteen 3M-24E (Kh-35 Uran or NATO: SS-N-25 Switchblade) AShMs, housed in four quadruple KT-184 launchers, angled at 30º, two on either side of the bridge superstructure. Equivalent to the Harpoon Block 1C AShM, these missiles have active radar homing (ARH) out to a range of 130 km at 0.9 Mach, with a 145 kg warhead. All 16 missiles can be ripple-fired in 2-3 second intervals. The Delhi Class will be retrofitted with the GLONASS-steered, land-attack 3M24E1 Uranium AShM at a later date. The 3M24E1 AShM - export variant of the 3M24M1 - has more fuel, which extends range to 250 km.

Fire control for the missiles, is provided by a Garpun-Bal FC (NATO: Plank Shave) radar, mounted atop the bridge. This radar combines active and passive channels and in the active target designation mode, it operates in X-band (I/J-band) and can handle up to 150 targets at ranges between 35 - 45 km, although it is possible to obtain ranges of more than 180 km in wave-guide propagation conditions. The passive channel operates in the ESM mode searching for pulse and CW signals, and accurately identifying the bearing of hostile emitters from a built-in classification library of up to 1000 signatures. The maximum range of the passive channel is over 100 km depending on the frequency.

In the air defence role, a pair of 3S-90 launchers - one installed forward of the bridge and the other atop the dual helicopter hangar - are fitted with the Shtil SAM system. The Shtil system comprises of the 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine. The launchers elevate up to 70º but have a limited firing arc of 30º within the centreline. The launcher groups require a crew of 20 men and weigh about 50 tons. Target tracking data is provided by the MR-775 Fregat MAE planar array radar which can engage up to 12 targets at ranges of 32 km. Target illumination and semi-active homing is provided via six MR-90 Orekh (NATO: Front Dome) illuminators, four mounted forward and two aft.

The 9M38M1 SAM, designated as Kashmir by the Indian Navy, is armed with a 70 kg high-explosive warhead, has a maximum speed of Mach 3 (830 m/s) and can manoeuvre up to 20 g. The missile can handle target aircrafts traveling at 420 to 830 m/s and incoming missiles moving at 330 to 830 m/s. The reaction time is 16 to 19 seconds and the advertised kill percentage is 81 to 96% for a two-missile salvo. Ranges against aircraft are 3 km to 32 km with altitudes from 15 metres to 15 km. Ranges against incoming missiles are 3.5 km to 12 km with altitudes from 10 metres to 10 km. The missile probably has a secondary anti-ship capability.

One 100mm AK-100 single-barrelled, water-cooled gun, for use against ship and shore targets. The AK-100 can engage aerial and surface targets at a rate of fire of 30 to 50 rds/min and the turret can traverse through an arc of 220º. Fire control for the gun is provided by the T91E radar, a part of the MR-145 or MR-184 (NATO: Kite Screech) fire control radar system along with a turret mounted Kondensor optical sight. Each shell weighs 16 kg.

Four multi-barrelled 30mm AK-630 Gatling guns, two on either beam, to shoot down incoming anti-ship missiles, at 3000 rounds per minute to 2.5 km. Fire control is provided by two MR-123-02 (NATO: Bass Tilt) directors at the H/I/J-band frequency incorporating EO sensors (including laser rangefinder attachments) along with a manual backup sight for each pair of guns. Each gun can throw up a defensive wall of lead at 5500 to 6000 rounds per minute out to about 2.5 to 5 km. Unlike Western CIWS like Phalanx or Goalkeeper, this is not a closed loop system.

INS Delhi and INS Mysore have been refitted with the Barak SAM system and the pair of MR-123-02 (NATO: Bass Tilt) directors have been replaced by two EL/M-2221 STGR radars, in addition to deckhouse modifications. Two of the four AK-630 guns aboard INS Delhi and INS Mysore have been removed, to place vertical launchers for the Barak system. As of July 2005, INS Mumbai has not been fitted with the Barak system and still has its original equipment fit.

Five 533mm PTA 533 quintuple torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships. The launchers are of modular construction and can fire different types of heavyweight torpedoes such as wire guided or wake homing types. The Delhi Class destroyers are armed with the SET-65E; anti-submarine, active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead and the Type 53-65; passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead.

Anti-submarine armament comprises of two 12 barrelled RBU-6000 AS rocket launchers mounted in front of the bridge. These weapons are controlled by the Purga ASW fire control system. The RBU-6000 fires RGB-60 depth charge rockets to engage submarines at depths of 500 metres at a maximum range of 6000 metres The system may carry up to 192 rockets, each with a 31 kg warhead. It is likely that the new RE-91 ASW rockets could be retrofitted to these vessels in due course. They use the same RBU launcher complex.

The vessels reportedly have the capability to fire the SS-N-15 or the SS-N-16 AShM. The former can be fired from 533mm torpedo tubes, while the latter needs a 650mm torpedo tube due to its large size. It is not known if these vessels are fitted with 650mm torpedo tubes.

Talwar's

Radar: Surface Search; One 3Ts-25E Garpun-B radar at I-band frequency, using both active and passive channels, provides long-range surface target designation. One MR-212/201-1 radar at I-band frequency is used for navigation and a separate Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A radar set is used for short-range navigation and surface surveillance. Also fitted with a Ladoga-ME-11356 inertial navigation and stabilisation suite supplied by Elektropribor.

Air/Surface Search; One Fregat M2EM (NATO: Top Plate) 3D circular scan radar at E-band frequency, provides target indication to the Shtil-1 missile system. Featuring continuous electronically scanned arrays, the radar rotates at 12 or 6 rpm and has an instrumented range to 300 km.

Fire Control; Features a Ratep JSC 5P-10E Puma fire control system, comprising of a phased array and target tracking radar along with laser and TV devices. The system - fitted above the bridge deck - features in-flight course correction updates via data links, has a maximum detection range of 60 km, operates autonomously and is capable of automatically locking on to four targets and tracking them.

Sonar: Some reports indicate that the BEL APSOH (Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull) hull-mounted sonar is fitted on the vessels. The APSOH sonar performs active ranging, passive listening, auto tracking of targets and classification. Other reports indicate that the BEL HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) sonar is fitted. The HUMSA is a panoramic medium-range active/passive sonar system developed by the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL).

Information released from the Severnoye Design Bureau (SDB) indicate that French towed array sonars (TAS) are also fitted. This is very plausible given that many Indian Navy ships now use French TAS, however INS Talwar shows no signs of such a system. The vessel may also have a SSN-137 VDS (Variable Depth Sonar), providing active search with medium frequency.

Weapons: In the main strike role, an eight-cell KBSM 3S14E vertical missile launcher is fitted, which accommodates the Klub-N ASCM. The Agat Research and Production Enterprise has supplied the 3R14N-11356 shipborne fire-control system associated with Klub-N. Jane's Defence Weekly reported in April 2004, that IN sources indicated that INS Tabar would be the first vessel in the Talwar series to be armed with the supersonic BrahMos (PJ-10) ASCM, which DRDO of India and NPO Mashinostroyeniya of Russia, have co-developed. The other two vessels (Talwar and Trishul) will also subsequently be equipped with the BrahMos ASCM.

In the air defence role, a single 3S-90 missile launcher is fitted forward of the bridge and is armed with the Shtil-1 SAM system. The system comprises of the 9M317 (SA-N-11, navalised SA-17) missile and 24 such missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine. Guidance and target illumination for these missiles is provided by four MR-90 Orekh (NATO: Front Dome) radars, which are connected to a command and control post.

Manufactured by the Dolgoprudny Research and Production Enterprise, the 9M317 missile uses a combination of inertial guidance and semi-active radar homing (the 70 kg blast fragmentation warhead is triggered by a radar proximity fuze) to its maximum range of 45 km. The missile can engage the following targets irrespective of the intensive jamming and minimal altitude; tactical ballistic missiles; aircraft manoeuvring at acceleration up to 12 g; cruise and antiradar missiles; helicopter gun ships; remotely piloted aircraft; anti-ship missiles; and radar-contrast water-borne and ground targets. The missile's control system and warhead can be adjusted to a specific target (ballistic, aerodynamic, small-size, water-borne, ground, helicopter) following target recognition, which increases hit probability. Eight Igla-1E (SA-16) portable air defence missiles are also carried.

One 100mm A-190(E) gun, for use against ship and shore based targets, is fitted forward. The A-190(E) uses a lightweight gun mount with an automatic gun and fuze setter. The mounting is fed from separate port and starboard magazines and uses three different rounds: a high-explosive shell with an impact fuze; an anti-aircraft shell using an electronic fuze; and an inert practice round. An automatic control and monitoring system prepares the gun for firing, selects the appropriate ammunition, conducts continuous diagnostics and computes firing corrections. Fire control is provided by the 5P-10E Puma FCS. The gun can fire 60 rounds a minute out to a range of 8.2n miles; 15 km. Weight of each shell is at 16 kg.

The A-190(E) gun is based on innovative technological and layout solutions, which features relatively low weight-size characteristics. The gun leads to a more than three-fold increase in the combat effectiveness of surface combatants, as compared to those fitted with the AK-176M (fitted in the Khukri Class), owing to: increase in the range of fire (roughly twofold); 1.8 times growth in the lethality of projectiles at a target; doubled accuracy of fire; and reduced reaction time as a result of automated operations, such as preparation of the gun for firing, selection of ammunition, monitoring of mechanisms' operation during firing, and display of data on the operator's monitor.

The A-190(E) gun is also superior to the AK-100 gun (fitted in the Delhi Class) in terms of basic performance characteristics: the rate of fire (approximately 1.5 times); accuracy (about three times); weight; dimensions; and operating characteristics. The gun also features higher automation of fire preparation and control and employs advanced guided and rocket-assisted long-range and enhanced-lethality projectiles fitted with dual-mode impact / proximity fuses set to operate over the target area. Together with the use of the muzzle velocity meter, it is designed to produce ever increased combat capability of the system in fire against sea- and shore-based point and area targets. In addition, the gun hull features stealth technology to minimize the radar signature of a ship.

For the CIWS (Close In Weapon System) role, two Kashtan Air Defence Gun/Missile Systems are used.

Features the RPK-8 system, which uses a 12 barrelled RBU-6000 ASW launcher to fire the 212mm 90R anti-submarine missile or RGB-60 depth charges. The firing range is from 600 to 4300 metres, and the depth of engagement is up to 1000 metres. Two twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 fixed torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships and fire the SET-65E/53-65KE torpedoes. The Purga anti-submarine fire-control system - a product of the Granit Central Scientific Institute - provides control for both the RBU-6000 and DTA-53 launchers.


Please feel free if you want to know any other info or if you have any comments.

Thank you,
Miro
 
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Yes, I have been to bharak many times and also read that again. It makes no mention of a sensor that has 300 nautic mile range. I'm not say that it doesn't have it, because plenty of navies in the world has it, but rather I don't know if IN has it.

As for type 15A, that's what I meant by improved Delhi. As you said, stealth features. A lot of ships have stealth features, but they are not necessarily stealthy. In terms of stealthiness, Talwar simply cannot match with Lafayette or even 054. And I have talked with numerous Indians on this. You seemed to be the first one to associate stealth with Talwar. Now, the improved Talwar is a different story. Type 17 is claimed to be "stealthy", but then again, compared to what? Anyway, get me some RCS number of the different type of ships, then we can talk about stealthiness.
 
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JF-17,F-16 and J-10 please talk some reality for God's sake you are a webby.

Then what do you think will be replacing Mirage PA III? Isn't it the reality?

Or will Indian Navy lease its retired Russian aircraft carrier to us on the deck with Mig-29K?
 
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Originally posted by WebMaster@Nov 23 2005, 09:42 PM
Then what do you think will be replacing Mirage PA III? Isn't it the reality?

Or will Indian Navy lease its retired Russian aircraft carrier to us on the deck with Mig-29K? 
[post=3544]Quoted post[/post]​

We should replace our Mirages with Naval version of the JF-17 and the j-10C.I heard that the J-10c is a carrier naval version of the J-10 but I dont think its confirmed.
 
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Originally posted by WebMaster@Nov 24 2005, 02:42 AM
Then what do you think will be replacing Mirage PA III? Isn't it the reality?
[post=3544]Quoted post[/post]​

Webby what I mean by reality?????

F-16

Please enlight me.

1) Purchase plan
2) Number of A/C and their versions.
3) Year of Procurement
4) Year of first aircraft Delivery
5) Naval warfare assets (Since we are talking about their naval role)

JF-17

1) AF prototype/aircraft induction in PAF
2) Naval version of JF-17??? Whats that??
3) Naval Warfare assets of JF-17 (Since we are talking about their naval role)

J-10

Tell me whatever you can.

and please avoid using words like will/can/could/would etc.

I am really in learning mood so give me some knowledge.

Or will Indian Navy lease its retired Russian aircraft carrier to us on the deck with Mig-29K?

Na! Na!

I am a realistic person.

I don't expect that from a nation who refuse to take a help of our helicopters at the worst tragedy. We are talking about an AC with MiG-29K at war scenario................

Then what do you think will be replacing Mirage PA III?

You keep it or scrap it dosent make any difference.

# 1 They are old/fatigued airframes.
# 2 They are outnumbered
# 3 They are no match against MiG-29K and upgraded harriers. Jaguar-IM's can have a good fight.

Thanks,

Miro

P.S: - I am not here for fight or flamming. But when I tried to recall about when it was the last time PAF provided it's aircrafts for the navy or to protect naval assets??? I go blank. May be you will guide me.

Also keep few points in mind for future discussion.........

# 1 You are having a kind of an enemy here to discuss the things and share some knowledge; not for fighting.
# 2 Smart enemy hits you exactly where you think you are safest.
 
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Originally posted by tphuang@Nov 24 2005, 02:13 AM
Yes, I have been to bharak many times and also read that again. It makes no mention of a sensor that has 300 nautic mile range. I'm not say that it doesn't have it, because plenty of navies in the world has it, but rather I don't know if IN has it.
[post=3543]Quoted post[/post]​

How if the Ka-31/28/Seakings and/or D0-228/Tu-142 flying advance on patrol and providing guidence for the Club's/BrahMoS and Uran's????

As for type 15A, that's what I meant by improved Delhi.

I meant Banglore Class. TYPE 15A Banglore Class.

Construction of the first Bangalore Class (Project 15A) destroyer commenced on 12 March 2003.

<div class='bbimg'>
1f14b0c7ecd9b27bc27956673b6967db.jpg
</div>

A preliminary line drawing of the Project 15A destroyer.

<div class='bbimg'>
15977f713ed8dd3e43c65fa525bf4679.jpg
</div>

A model of the Project 15A destroyer at a Def Expo in South Africa.

A lot of ships have stealth features, but they are not necessarily stealthy. In terms of stealthiness, Talwar simply cannot match with Lafayette or even 054. And I have talked with numerous Indians on this. You seemed to be the first one to associate stealth with Talwar.

Ya I did it bçoz of these........................

The Severnoye (Northern) Design Bureau developed the Project 1135.6 vessel using an earlier Project 1135.1 design, which dated back to the early 1980s. The extensive scope of redesign and re-engineering for these vessels has realised a multipurpose surface combatant of about 4,000 ton displacement (this increase being attributed to additional weapon systems and the replacement of light alloys with steel), tailored to meet the Indian Navy&#39;s specific mission and performance requirements.

The ship&#39;s redesigned topside & hull has considerably reduced radar cross-section and this feature alone, clearly separates the Project 1135.6 from its predecessors. While the superstructure sides are sloped and relatively clean, the very cluttered topside of the ship cannot be remotely described as having any signature reducing features. However, these frigates will be the first Indian Navy warships to incorporate some stealth features and a vertical launch missile system. The ship&#39;s hull is characterised by outward flare and tumblehome, while the superstructure (which forms a continuous junction with the hull) has a large fixed tumblehome angle.

On 17 November 1997, Russia and India signed a &#036;1 billion contract, for three Krivak III Class multi-purpose frigates. The Indian Navy wanted to fill the gap created by the decommissioning of the Leander Class frigates and until the Project 17 Class frigates enter service. An option for another three vessels is also on the cards.

After the signing of the contract, Severnoye Design Bureau began a detail design layout and the shipbuilder, Baltisky Zavod of St. Petersburg began preparations for their construction. The project involved around 130 suppliers from Russia, India, Britain, Germany, Denmark, Belarus, Ukraine and other countries including over 30 St. Petersburg-based naval design organizations and institutes. VT Halmatic of the UK has supplied a pair of Pacific 22 Mk.I rigid inflatable boats (RIBs), for use as general ship boats. These RIBs are designed primarily for ASW warfare and for the air defence of naval task forces. There are also a considerable number of Indian component suppliers. According to the original contract schedule, the Talwar was intended for handover in May 2002, with the Trishul to follow in November that year and the Tabar being accepted in May 2003.

The Talwar commenced engine sea trials in November 2001 and immediately ran into major problems with the machinery, hull, equipment integration and weapons systems. Media reports indicated that as of December 2002, the Shtil-1 SAM system had been unable to hit any airborne targets during trial firings. This was due to integration problems between the combat management and weapons systems. This resulted in the Indian Navy not taking delivery of the vessel and the commissioning crew was flown back to India because of the extent of problems, and the time needed to fix them. This had set back the scheduled delivery dates very considerably - from May 2002 to mid-2003 for the Talwar. The first vessel was finally handed over to the Indian Navy in St. Petersburg in a formal commissioning ceremony on 18 June 2003, after all problems were indentified and remedied. INS Talwar arrived home at Mumbai&#39;s Naval DY on 12 August 2003, after a long journey from St. Petersburg. Her sister ships also charted a similar route home, with INS Trishul and INS Tabar arriving in Mumbai on 23 September 2003 and 31 July 2004 respectively.

The crest of a ship, akin to the &#39;Coat of Arms&#39; of the Army or an &#39;Insignia&#39; of the Air Force, epitomises the spirit and ethos of the ship. Talwar was the most commonly used sword in Indian martial history. The blades varied in size, curvature and temper. According to Gatka - the Shastra from ancient Indian literature - Talwar is one of the Ten Weapons of the Gods. In lore, the Gods (embodying all that is Good) used these weapons in their numerous fights with the demons or &#39;Asuras&#39; (embodying all that is evil). Talwar proved to be the foremost of them all and has been held in great esteem ever since. Through the ages Talwar has been the pride of India&#39;s many warrior classes, notable among them being the Rajputs, Sikhs and Marathas. "They are as careful of their swords and take as much pains to keep them in order as the Japanese do with their samurai," a British historian recorded. It is a common saying that a really objectionable act is as disgraceful as having a blunt sword. To the Indian Navy, the new Talwar represents the cutting edge of technology in stealth, reach and punch.

The word Trishul finds its origin from the Sanskrit word &#39;Tri&#39; meaning three and &#39;Shul&#39; meaning a spiked weapon. Consequently, this three-edged spiked weapon resembles a trident. Indian mythology has it that the Trishul was a powerful and all pervasive weapon of the Lord Shiva, that was effectively used by him to ward off evil. The Trishul as a weapon has been used ever since then to symbolise the victory of truth and righteousness over evil. According to mythology, surviving the onslaught of the Trishul is impossible. The crest of the ship depicts a strong arm rising out from under the sea, holding the powerful Trident. The mythological truth of this feared weapon, when extended to the INS Trishul makes the ship powerful in all three dimensions - air, surface and sub-surface. A warship that will be feared for her lethality and brutal power. The last vessel in the series is called Tabar - means Battle Axe in Sanskrit - and is aptly named for role, as she serves as an all-powerful weapon platform of the sea. The crest of the ship depicts a pair of battle axes, in a &#39;X&#39; layout, rising out from under the sea.

Type 17 is claimed to be "stealthy", but then again, compared to what? Anyway, get me some RCS number of the different type of ships, then we can talk about stealthiness.

Type 17A (Stealth??) Guided Missile Frigates

Future Commissions:

Shivalik; Laid Down - 11 July 2001, Launched - 18 April 2003, Commissioning - 30 June 2006.
Satpura; Laid Down - 2002, Launched - 04 June 2004, Commissioning - 29 December 2006.
Sahyadri; Laid Down - 17 March 2003, Launched - 27 May 2005, Commissioning - 30 March 2007.

Displacement: 4600 tons - standard displacement. 5000+ tons - full load.

Dimensions: Length - 143 metres. Beam - 17 meters. Draught - 4.5 metres. Moulded Depth - 9.2 metres.

Maximum Speed: 30 knots for GT operations. Maximum cruising speed of 22 knots on diesels.

Complement: 257 (incl. 35 officers)

The Project 17 (P17) standard frigate will be the Indian Navy&#39;s (IN) new stealthy multi-role surface combatant for the 21st century. The program calls for 12 units. Cabinet approval for this project was given in 1997, followed by a Letter of Intent (LoI) to the ship&#39;s builders, Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) in February 1998. The IN formally ordered the first three units in early 1999. However, production commenced about two years later due to delays resulting from specification changes to the hull steel and protracted delivery schedule of the Russian-sourced D-40S steel along with the non-availability of design inputs from the Naval Design Bureau (NDB) for the weapons suite. Construction of the first P17 frigate commenced with plate cutting on 18 December 2000, the keel laid on 11 July 2001 and the launch on 18 April 2003. The other two units will then be delivered at regular intervals and subsequent units - twelve planned in all - will likely be built in progressively modified batches. The vessel adopts a compartmental-design and is planned to be built using 172 modules.

The P17 is an enlarged and modified version of the Russian P1135.6 Talwar {Krivak III} Class frigates. It was jointly designed by the NDB and Russia&#39;s Severnoye Project Design Bureau (Severnoye Proyektno-Konstruktorskoye Bjuro - SPKB), the designers of the P1135.6 frigate. SPKB has been a consulting partner to the IN for quite some time now and its design influence is clearly seen in the Type 15 Delhi Class destroyers and Type 25/25A Khukri / Kora Class corvettes. More recently, France&#39;s DCN International (DCNI) has been involved in this project as a consultant undertaking signature management studies amongst other things. CAE of Canada will act as the overall platform functional integrator, which is landmark since this is the first time a Western company has been put in charge of a vital IN project. So far, the program is more or less on schedule and it is understood that design work has already started on an improved version, the P17 Alpha (P17A).

In appearance and layout, the P17 is very similar to the Talwar Class frigate although the aft end is more like the Delhi Class destroyer. It is possible that the superstructure may yet be altered to resemble the Lafayette design depending upon DCNI&#39;s input. The P17 is approximately 143 meters long with a beam of 17 meters, a standard displacement of 4600 tons (5000+ tons full load) and a maximum speed of 30 knots. With respect to the P1135.6 design, the P17 is about 17 metres longer, 2 metres wider and displaces about a thousand tons more. Other important differences are in the propulsion system (CODOG vs. COGOG), number of embarked helicopters (two vs. one) and in the weapons and sensor suite. The ship will feature modular construction techniques using around 172 modules. This should, in theory, speed up the pace of construction considerably. The vessel&#39;s complement is estimated to number 257 (including 35 officers), which is a considerable improvement over present IN surface combatants of similar tonnage and results from the use of increased automation of many shipboard equipment and systems.

Signature Reduction

While it is does not feature extreme stealthy or low observable features like the Swedish Visby or even the French Lafayette, the P17 will have far more signature reducing features than has previously been the case on IN warships. Canada&#39;s Davis Engineering provided Infra-Red Suppression System (IRSS) design tools & training to the IN for the P17 ships and this will help the ships in having a lower IR (infra-red) signature. The Canadian IRSS is the most effective IR signature reduction device in service today. An Italian Radar Cross Section (RCS) prediction software may also have been used for this design. As is common practice, all machinery will be mounted on noise and vibration proof mounts to reduce acoustic and vibration signatures.

Propulsion & Machinery Systems

The vessel will feature a CODOG (COmbined Diesel Or Gas Turbine) propulsion plant featuring two General Electric LM 2500 IEC (Integrated Engine Controls) Marine Gas Turbines and two S.E.M.T. Pielstick 16 PA6 STC diesel engines driving two Controllable Pitch Propellers (CPP) through two Renk gearboxes. The CPP and associated shafting are being supplied by John Crane-LIPS (Netherlands) through their Indian partner, Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL). The LM2500 plant is rated at approximately 18,000 kW (24,000+ hp) and would be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The Pielstick 16 PA6 STC is a sequentially turbo-charged 16 cylinder engine rated at a maximum power of 5700 kW (7600+ hp) at 1084 rpm while fulfilling strict requirements in terms of environmental conditions, ship attitude, shock, noise, vibrations and emissions. The order for the first three ship sets of two 16 PA6 STC engines was placed by MDL to the Pielstick Indian licensee, Kirloskar Oil Engines Ltd. (KOEL) at the beginning of 2000. The first two engines will be manufactured in France by S.E.M.T. Pielstick, while the subsequent engines will be manufactured in India by KOEL in their Nasik engine plant. Steering gear and stabilizers are supplied by Veljan Hydair.

Renk of Germany will supply the gearboxes through their Indian partner, Elecon. This is understood to be a breakthrough for Renk since the IN uses gearboxes from their competitor, MAAG. Designed to reduce the structure borne noise levels to evade sonar detection, this is the first gearbox built in India with such high accuracy and low structure borne noise. The revolutionary CODOG marine dual powered gearbox transmits 22.37 MW from gas turbine in combat mode and transmits 5.18 MW from diesel engine in cruising mode. All machinery will be mounted on noise and vibration proof mounts to reduce acoustic and vibration signatures. Each frigate will have four WCM 1000/5 DG sets (providing four megawatts of power) comprising Cummins KTA50G3 diesel engines and one Kirloskar AC generator (providing 1 MW of power), mounted in IACL supplied acoustic enclosures. These plants will be considerably more sophisticated than the Talwar Class and as in the Talwar Class, Wartsila supplies the diesel generator (DG) sets for the P17 frigates as well. Wartsila India Limited was awarded a contract by MDL for twelve 1 MW DG sets with enclosures for the three frigates. The scheduled delivery plan to MDL is as follows:

• 1st Shipset: 31 October 2002

• 2nd Shipset: 31 October 2003

• 3rd Shipset: 31 October 2004

The DG sets will be assembled at Wartsila Khopoli Plant. All the components of the DG sets are bought-out items. Engines are being procured from Cummins&#39; Pune plant, alternators are from KEC Bangalore plant and acoustic enclosures are being procured from IAC Limited, U.K. Other peripherals are being procured from Wartsila Denmark. The integration, assembly and &#39;Factory Acceptance Test&#39; will be done at Khopoli under Wartsila Denmark&#39;s supervision. The assembled sets then will be shipped to MDL. These DG units will be housed in special acoustic enclosures supplied by IAC Ltd. In addition to containing the noise emissions of the diesel generators sets, the enclosures have an exceptionally lightweight design and are fully able to withstand severe shock loadings - both essential features in a military environment. Rapid, all-round access to the diesel generators is another key requirement. IAC has therefore developed an ingenious new captive sliding assembly to support all of the enclosure&#39;s side wall panels, allowing them to be removed and stowed safely to one side in just a few seconds.

IAC worked closely with Wartsila (Denmark and India), the IN itself and MDL for this program. Switchboards for the machinery and electrical systems are being supplied by G.E. Power Controls in Bangalore. Larsen & Toubro Engineering provides the helicopter land grid for the vessel, which is a local derivative of the French Samahé helicopter handling system. In October 2001, CAE of Canada was awarded a contract by MDL and the IN to act as the overall platform functional integrator and supplier of the Integrated Machinery Control System (IMCS) for the three P17 Class frigates. CAE India and CAE Montreal will jointly manage this program jointly. One hopes that MDL will use this opportunity to acquire state-of-the-art technologies and methods and use them well for the next generation of warship designs.

The IMCS uses CAE&#39;s Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS) technology to monitor and control the platform machinery of a ship, including propulsion, electrical, damage control and auxiliary machinery and other systems. It also provides advanced automation for enhanced operational effectiveness and survivability of the ship. It also provides advanced functionality such as on-board training, equipment health monitoring and comprehensive automation for enhanced operational effectiveness and survivability of the ship. CAE&#39;s IPMS is the world&#39;s first and leading digital control system for naval ships. The state-of-the-art system represents a significant step for the IN. In the meanwhile, CAE has recently delivered an electronic Gas Turbine Controller to HAL to test the General Electric LM 2500 IEC Marine Gas Turbines.

The Battle Damage Control System (BDCS) is a functional part of the IPMS although the actual hardware may not quite be on a par with the latest Western warships. However, the Damage Control system will be much improved over current IN combatants. It is clear that considerable effort has been made to transfer technologies from foreign partners to Indian companies. However, one must take statements regarding the level of indigenization on board the P17 frigates with a grain of salt. The figure of 60 -70% of the ship as having indigenous components is usual. In any project of this magnitude, it is helpful to keep in mind that the process of indigenization is a gradual one and is certainly dependent on how one defines &#39;Indian made equipment&#39;. If one were to adhere to the definition of indigenous equipment as &#39;designed & made in India&#39;, then very little of the equipment would qualify as such.

Armament

The weapon details are speculative and based on various reports and inputs. Unlike the Talwar Class, which will feature a 100mm A-190E gun, the main gun on the P17 will very likely be a 76mm Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM) made under license from OTO Melara of Italy. In the air defence role, a combination of missiles and guns will be used. For medium range anti-air coverage, a single 3S-90 launcher mount for the Kashmir SAM system with 24 missiles is employed. The Kashmir SAM system fires the 9M38M1 missile or the improved 9M38M2 missile. The 9M38M1, which is also known as the SA-N-7 by NATO or Shtil in Russian Navy service, is a navalised SA-11. The 9M38M2, which is also known as the SA-N-12 by NATO, is a navalised SA-17. The 9M38M1 missile is reported to have a range of 3.5 to 25 km, while the 9M38M2 has a range of 32 km or more. For anti-ship missiles, the maximum engagement range is reduced to 10 to 12 km. About six targets can be simultaneously engaged. The Kashmir missile is soon becoming the standard medium-ranged SAM in the IN.

For the CIWS (Close In Weapon System) role, the Kashtan Air Defence Gun/Missile System, comprising two mounts, will be fitted. These mounts will be on either side of the helicopter hangar. In addition, separate AK-630 Gatling gun mounts may also be used. Some reports also indicate the Israeli-made, vertically-launched, Barak SAM system may be used. This, however, is to yet to be confirmed from reliable sources. As with the Talwar Class, long range strike weapons will be carried in eight vertical launch cells for the Klub-N ASCM or the PJ-10 BrahMos ASCM. There are indications that the BrahMos is earmarked for the Project 15A Bangalore Class destroyers. For ASW, a single RBU-6000 launcher firing 90R missiles is employed. For launching torpedoes, either the Russian DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers or an Indian system would be used. Given the flexibility of the Klub system, it is entirely possible that 91RE2 ASW missile may be employed for anti-submarine operations. Two Naval HAL Dhruv or Sea King Mk.42B helicopters will be embarked for ASW and ASuW duties.

Sensors

The sensor suite is varied. The main air search and targeting radar for the SAM system is a foremast-mounted MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D air search radar that is employed in concert with the Kashmir SAM system. Fire control guidance and target illumination for the Kashmir SAM system is provided by three or four MR-90 Orekh (NATO: Front Dome) radars. Fire control for the 76mm SRGM is provided by the BEL Shikari (based on Contraves TMX tracker) mounted atop the bridge. Fire control radar for the SSMs will very likely be the BEL APARNA (Active and PAssive Radar for Navigation and Attack) or a Russian system ala the Talwar Class. The BEL APARNA is a local development of the Garpun-Bal FC radar. The BEL RAWL02 (Signaal LW08) antenna will be mounted on the main mast. The communication grid is built around a Gigabit Ethernet-based integrated ship borne data network, with a fibre optic cable backbone running through the vessel.

The sonar suite will very likely comprise BEL made derivatives of the HUMSA (Hull Mounted Sonar Array) and ATAS, which may be a derivative of the Thales Sintra towed array systems. Composite engineering defence contractor W & J Tod Limited of the United Kingdom secured a second major contract in 2004 from the Indian Navy to build keel-mounted sonar domes for the Project 17 frigates. This latest contract is a follow-up to the Shivalik contract awarded in January 2003. The company announced that it was awarded two separate contracts to build sonar domes, fairings and directing gear for the P17 frigates. The company is also working with the Indian Navy on feasibility programs for the development of future composite and stealth components.

Electronic warfare (EW) suites will be an evolution of the BEL Ajanta system comprising the usual mix of components and equipment from India, Israel, Italy and elsewhere. Navigation systems will very likely comprise the Decca Bridgemaster radar, the BEL RASHMI (Radar Aid for InSHore and Harbor Manoeuvring in I-band) or the BEL RANI (Radar Aid for Navigation in I-band) units. The Combat Management System (CMS) could be an evolution of the locally developed EMCCA or possibly French systems like TAVITAC or SENIT or a hybrid. It appears that DCNI would be the CMS integrator. A large portion of the communications system will be of Indian origin with equipment coming from BEL and elsewhere.

All in all, this is a very capable warship. It will be more than adequate to counter regional threats and to protect India&#39;s vital sea lanes. This project represents a very positive step for the Indian naval industry and one hopes that the Indian Navy will provide steady funding to keep the project on track without further delays.

For more info on Type-17A please Click Here

Thanks,

Miro
 
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I don&#39;t expect that from a nation who refuse to take a help of our helicopters at the worst tragedy.

This was done due to security reasons, we simply dont trust the nation who have hit us hard in the time of insecurity. Also if you dont know, we accepted the helicopters, but no personales.

You keep it or scrap it dosent make any difference.

Ever heard of an aircraft called Mirage ROSE upgraded?

# 3 They are no match against MiG-29K and upgraded harriers. Jaguar-IM&#39;s can have a good fight.

Ridiculous, in your first sentence, and in the second your sure getting real now. How many Mig-29Ks are in IAF service? and what is so called important upgrades that Harrier&#39;s have gotten?

P.S: - I am not here for fight or flamming.

Better that your not here for it. I am too a realistic person, and i dont expect to win in every Indian and Pakistani military discussion for Pakistan, because its very unrealistic, due to a very well known fact that Pakistan Navy and Air Force are not well equipped. Besides its a pleasure to have a realistic mature indian like you to discuss and gain knowledge in a better environment.

But when I tried to recall about when it was the last time PAF provided it&#39;s aircrafts for the navy or to protect naval assets???

PAF has always provided its aircrafts so called Mirage 5PA/PA2/DPA/DPA2 aircraft & even ROSE.
 
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Originally posted by WebMaster@Nov 27 2005, 05:19 AM
Ever heard of an aircraft called Mirage ROSE upgraded?
5PA/PA2/DPA/DPA2 aircraft & even ROSE.
[post=3827]Quoted post[/post]​

Yeah many times but not impressed.

Thats me and my personal opinion.

Anytime PAF even buy a new screw for their planes we the IAF personnel are being briefed with the Advantages if any over IAF and disadvantages if any to PAF.

as a smart enemy we are always well aware nof the PAF.

Ridiculous, in your first sentence, and in the second your sure getting real now. How many Mig-29Ks are in IAF service?

16 MiG-29K will be in the Indian Navy Service by 2007. They all will be stationed at INS Vikramaditya (Ex-Gorshkov).

If you want to see the technical stats of Both IAF and IN MiG-29&#39;s then Click Here

and what is so called important upgrades that Harrier&#39;s have gotten?

In July 1999, a mid-life upgrade package worth &#036;200 million was reportedly announced by the Indian Navy. Afterwards this upgrade package was cancelled in favour of purchasing the MiG-29K air defense fighter, for deployment on the Vikramaditya (formerly Admiral Gorshkov) and the Air Defence Ship. It was planed that the Sea Harriers would retire by 2010 along with the decommissioning of aircraft carrier INS Viraat in the same year. Surprisingly in March 2005, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the upgradation of 14 Sea Harriers. Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee stated that the aircraft will be upgraded at a cost of Rs 476.69 crore and will be carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. He also stated that the upgradation will involve the installation of new radars (Elta EL/M-2032 multimode fire control radar), new air-to-air missiles (Derby BVRAAM) from Israeli firm Rafael, combat manoeuvring flight recorders and digital cockpit voice recorders.

A formal contract, worth &#036;25 million, was signed with the Rafael Armament Development Authority in February 2005 for the Derby BVRAAM and includes an initial batch of 20 missiles and six training rounds. Under the proposed contract, officials from Rafael will be stationed at the Sea Harrier base in Goa to train Navy personnel on the operation & maintenance of the missiles and will also supply trolleys and racks to load & handle the missiles. Delivery of the missiles are expected to begin 30 months after the signing of the contract and will be completed within one year thereafter.

Thanks,

Miro
 
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Pakistan shouldnt purchase Nuclear Submarines which are difficult to maintain and which wouldnt fit into pakistan&#39;s overall strategy. U.S. keeps Nuclear submarines so that they can travel deep in the Atlantic ocean and stay there for many months, Why?? Because of the MAD theory of deterence. (Mutually Assured Destruction). The Russians have so many ICBM nuclear missiles that a massive first strike on nuclear facilites on the U.S. mainland would destroy U.S. ability to deliver a second strike. Therefore the U.S. deploys significant nuclear missiles on nuclear submarines far away from U.S. mainland where it can stay for months and deliver second strike capability.

pakistan doesnt have any ballistic missiles that can be launched from submarines and therefore no sense for nuclear submarines to deliver the non existant ballistic missiles.

The Kilo class Russian submarine is an electro-diseal submarine which i believe is a brilliant submarine which Pakistan should acquire. Its very quiet, low maintenance can be modified to fire cruise missiles is excellent for mining and defensive strategy. Iran and India both have this excellent sub.
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Nov 27 2005, 04:34 PM
The Kilo class Russian submarine is an electro-diseal submarine which i believe is a brilliant submarine which Pakistan should acquire. Its very quiet, low maintenance can be modified to fire cruise missiles is excellent for mining and defensive strategy. Iran and India both have this excellent sub.
[post=3871]Quoted post[/post]​

Out of 10 Indian Kilo class submarines 5 are capable to fire Club missile and SAM from under the water.

Kilo&#39;s are also in the service of PLAN.

Russia won&#39;t sell Kilo&#39;s to Pakistan bçoz they have an understanding with the Indian for not selling hi tech Russian stuff to Pakistan.

Thanks,

Miro
 
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Originally posted by miroslav@Nov 27 2005, 06:38 AM
Out of 10 Indian Kilo class submarines 5 are capable to fire Club missile and SAM from under the water.

Kilo&#39;s are also in the service of PLAN.

Russia won&#39;t sell Kilo&#39;s to Pakistan bçoz they have an understanding with the Indian for not selling hi tech Russian stuff to Pakistan.

Thanks,

Miro
[post=3872]Quoted post[/post]​

Like we will ask the Russians.

Miro you heard about the possible submarine procurement from Germany?? They are to be similar to Kilo. Very similar hull i say.
 
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Originally posted by WebMaster@Jan 3 2006, 01:09 PM
Like we will ask the Russians. 

Miro you heard about the possible submarine procurement from Germany?? They are to be similar to Kilo. Very similar hull i say.
[post=4997]Quoted post[/post]​

I keep lising a lot of possile this and that about the Pakistan Armed Forces.

Miro
 
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According to BITS and GeoPowers.com citing the newspaper "Neues Deutschland" (all sources german) the budgetary commission of the German "Bundestag" (parliament) finally has been presented with a request by the German government to guarantee for about 1 billion &#8364; (total value about 1.2 bln &#8364;) for the sale of 3 U-214 class submarines to Pakistan. This is seen as a sign that the German government supports the sale and that negotioations have entered an advanced state. It is speculated that pre-assembled submarine sections will be delivered from 2011 for final assembly in Pakistan.:victory:

Australia, Pakistan, Bulgaria: DCN hopes to obtain two contracts out of three

t the time of the presentation of the results of the company, last Friday, Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, president of DCN, indicated that its group intended to currently gain at least two of the three contracts being negotiated. In Australia, DCN, combined with ADI (subsidiary of Thales) is in competition with Navantia for the construction of two helicopter carriers attack (1 billion dollar). The French proposes an increased version of the building of projection and Mistral command, with a displacement increased to 27.000 tons. Opposite, Spain aligns its Buque de Proyección Estratégica (BPE), of which the first specimen, Juan Carlos I, is in the course of construction for Armada. After the handing-over of the commercial offers at the end of 2006, Australia must choose the prize winner this year.

To Pakistan, DCN fights a savage battle with German TKMS in order to modernize the underwater fleet of the country with buildings of the type Scorpène or Marlin. Islamabad wishes to acquire four new submarines to replace the Daphne, now disarmed. Currently carrying out for this country the program Agosta 90B, DCN seems to have charts to play, the more so as the third submarine of the series, first to being equipped with the system with anaerobic propulsion MESMA, will begin its tests sea this year. The German commercial pressure remains nevertheless very strong

Lastly, the French group hopes for a good news on the side of Bulgaria. The country could buy four corvettes of the Gowind type, to which possibly two units for Georgia would be added. The ordering of these buildings, if it is concretized, will be done nevertheless in exchange of an industrial partnership. With this occasion, DCN could sub-contract with the Bulgarian building sites the realization of sections intended for the frigates multi-missions (FREMM).

Just for the Scarborough situation it was few Indians that were trying to score points against Pakistan.disgusting
 
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The PN is seeking 6 used Oliver Hazard Perry Class ships from the U.S. Latest news about it said that the first of these will not be available for transfer for at least another two years from now. However the U.S Navy Chief said that as they become available, top priority for transfer will be given to Pakistan. It seems to me that the PN will directly replace the 6 Type-21s with 6 OHPs. It is possible (if not very likely) that the OHPs in their current form will be given to PN under the EDA program (free of cost) - and Pakistan will have to pay for the upgrades/refits to bring them up to FFG status.

Beyond this the PN will seek 4 new-built frigates which are of larger displacement and more capable than the F-22Ps. I imagine that the new frigate requirement will be sent or formally announced sometime in 2009-2010 after the new submarines and new corvettes are settled. A German news source reported that if TKMS wins the PN U214 deal, the PN may show interest in the MEKO A-200 FFG. Besides this, Kanwa reported that the PN was interested in the Type-054 class FFG. Active consideration for a proper frigate has already begun.

As to where the F-22P would stand in PN. Well I think the F-22Ps will take over from the retired Leander Class and primarily become patrol, training and coastal or littoral combatants. IMO the 6 OHPs or used frigates of that capability will be used for out going missions - and will ultimately be replaced by the 4 new-built frigates (MEKO A-200 or Type-054). The 4 corvettes sought will likely augment the F-22P in littoral defence and act as ASW vessels.

Armed Forces Future Development Program - 2019 (AFFDP-2019) may have listed the PN fleet as the following by 2019:
4 new-built frigates (Type-054 or MEKO A-200)
4+ new-built corvettes (Milgem, Gowind 120 or MEKO A-100)
4 F-22P light frigates/corvettes
3-4 submarines (U214, Marlin or Scorpene)
3 AIP-equipped Agosta-90B
8 MRTP-33 FAC
4 Shujaat Class FAC
3 P-3B(?) Hawkeye 2000 AEW&C
10 P-3C Orion MPA
6 Z-9EC helicopters
8-12+ helicopters (Seaking variant, NH-90NFH?)
9~12 light helicopters (Alouette III, Fennec?)
5? mine countermeasure vessels
2-3 auxiliary tankers/support vessels
?? Coastal patrol boats?
Overall I think it is a good defensive fleet being planned. A strong sub-surface and aviation fleet as well as a decent surface fleet. The PAF will likely have a couple of F-16 squadrons on the maritime role as well, they will likely data-link (through Link 16) with the Hawkeye 2000 and surface vessels
 
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Well since many rumours are surfacing again and again that Pakistan is interested in buying/producing nuclear submarines. Well, it may be is. Other option would be if modifications can be done with the VLS of the U-214 to make it to be able to launch nuclear tipped Babur naval version of the cruise missile.
 
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