Phalcon Meets Its Nemesis

[Marxist]

Nice hypothetical scenario,but unfortunately it had started war of words between Indians and Pakistani

Khalid: Crossing LoC...

ITS unfair to ask question a story,but we have Our SAM's in LOC to shoot down uR Planes

 

[gowthamraj]

btw india have eyire killer. . . novator k-100 indo-russia JV

 

[SQ8]

I got a better Idea.
Just call up the pilot of the phalcon
"hello..Kabira Speaking"

Honestly though, the distance at which Awacs operate from hostile territory and can detect aircraft makes it all pointless to try taking it out in the air. Maybe a volley of 5 or so novator long range missiles might have a chance. Otherwise if the awacs detects that it is being intercepted, it can just keep vectoring in fighters to take you out.
The only plausible way is to hit them preemptively(which basically means you are the aggressor) or time an attack on its base when it lands for crew supplies in case we assume its going to be refueled in the air and can loiter at the max say 16 hours;Even in that case it has other peers taking over its duties while its on the ground and can be warned of an impending strike, which in the case of the Indian Awacs base gives a good minimum 20 minute warning(which includes a cruise missile, ill be surprised that the IAf bought a multi billion dollar piece of equipment that doeskin have substantial ability to pick out small fast moving targets) making it a very difficult task to take it out. On the other hand, taking out the erieye might be easier using this technique due to Pakistan's lack of depth.

 

[karan.1970]

Even the US has trouble getting its BMD to work, while they face attacks from across oceans and continents. You will be facing an attack from miles away.

Even for Ballistic missiles its not going to work - then I'm suggesting a barrage of missile - then I'm suggesting mostly the use of cruise missile. Thats why the only possible defence you may have is with the use of those big laser sniping systems that the US is working on since missile based shields are useless.

2 issues I think

1. You wont know when and where it lands..
2. Range and speed may be an issue. Even with the 700 km range of Babur, if you try to hit a field 400 km away from the Babur battery, it will take the missile 30 minutes or so to reach the target(max speed 550 miles / hr). The AWACS in the air will have enough time to detect and warn the airfield being attacked to allow the AWACS on the ground to get back into air..

 

[Marxist]

Disclaimer: Please note that this is a hypothetical scenario. The names of Minhas, Alam , Khalid and Rafiqui have been chosen for their historical relevance only. All other names and characters have been chosen randomly. Any coincidence would only be by chance.

PHALCON MEETS ITS NEMESIS

Masud: Gentlemen its urgent. We have to send a mission in an hour against IAF Phalcon in the Northern Sector. We have lost element of surprise. All sorties are monitored by Phalcon right from the take-off. During dogfights, Phalcon is acting as a virtual wingman for each Su-30 and these Flankers have enough confidence to operate alone too.

Shamim: what happened to the earlier missions sent by southern command to neutralise Phalcon that is operating over their area?

Alam : So far no success. But I think our northern command should also send some mission.

Inam : We have aleady lost 4 pilots and I dont know why we are still crazy about Phalcon.

Alam: Yes but we shot down 12 of theirs.

Inam : Its impossible. The numerical superiority of the enemy is overwhelming. Continuing to fight for this objective is useless.

Masud: Our job is to find the possibilities and do the impossible. This nation depends on us. History is looking to us. I am sending Mirages to attack Phalcon.

Shamim: Why not F-16s?

Masud: Falcons will be escorting them. Rafiqui shall attack the Phalcon from above and Sajjad shall attack from beneath. Both shall go simultaneously and fire the missiles forward. Rafiqui is to pull-up after attack in a upward loop and Sajjad is to pull a split-S in a downward loop. The pattern is to repeated, if circumstances allow, to cripple the Phalcon. Dilawar and Minhas shall be wingmen to Sajjad and Rafiqui respectively. Wingman shall take the lead if leader encounters a problem. Escort will be given to you. You shall avoid any unnecessary air combat and proceed to your objective. In case of casualties, you are free to reform pairs. Remember to disengage at Bingo. Everyone is to take one flare catridge for R73 and one blinding flare catridge for Python missiles, which use IIR. For dogfights take a mix of Magic-2s and AIM-9Ms. Your escorts will be carrying AMRAAMs.

Masud: Alam! providing air cover to Mirages is your responsibility. Take Khalid as your wingman.

Masud: Any question?? If No then its time to scramble. I shall be monitoring the mission. Phalcon of the northern sector is now over Srinagar.

AFTER 20 minutes......

Controller: Sir Mirages are crossing LoC.....8 bogeys approaching in pairs, 4 Mig-29s from behind and 4 Su-30s at 60 degree angle-off,

Masud: At which range?

Controller: Mig-29s at 30 miles and flankers at 40 miles, Sir.

Masud: where is Alam? He should be somewhere near........

Controller: Not visible on scope Sir...no radio contact....

Controller: Radar lock reported on Mirages....possibly a BVR shot......releasing chaff....

Masud: Call Alam to engage.....

Controller: No response from Alam Sir...

Shamim: Sir I told you he is a maverick, he can't be trusted with orders....

Masud: May be he is in radio silence....

Controller: 2 BVR missiles launched at leading Mirages by Flankers......

Alam: Drop tanks away, going head to head with bogeys, changing from tight to battle formation.....

Sajjad: Diving for the deck,

Controller: Sir Alam and Khalid were flying very tight abreast formation with Mirages and so were a single blip on our scope.

Masud: where did the BVRs go?

Controller: Sir Alam and Khalid pulled horizontal scissors maneuvers with missiles passing in between the two.....

Alam to Khalid :dont be exactly at my tail....while horizontal, you are to fly 1000 feet above me and 1000 feet behind...whenever a Fulcrum or Flanker pulls a Cobra, you roast him....in the verticals, you are to fly at the same altitude as me but 500 feet apart towards the inner side of the loop...In horizontal, you are to release flares downwards and I shall release flares upwards...same for the chaff...In verticals, release flares directly backwards......

Alam : Two Fulcrums locked up together.....releasing two AMRAAMs......Fox 1...
Khalid : Two Flankers locked.........unleashing AMRAAMs....

Alam: 4 bogeys down...getting close now....

Alam : Zooming up on Fulcrum....closing in....impossible to take lead... Fulcrum turning too tight......Khalid he must be in your sight....

Khalid : Yes Sir, he is....giving him a dose of bullets...Fulcrum smoking and going down....

Alam: Going after the Flanker....Flanker pulling Cobra....Khalid bite him!!!!!!
Khalid : Guns thundering....Flanker dead....They would not do Cobra again....

Alam : Look right Khalid...R-73 fired from 60 degree off-boresight.........
Khalid: Deploying proximity fuse jammer and releasing R73C flares.....

Controller: Sir Alam has become PAF's second ACE after 1965....and Khalid needs one more shot to become ACE....

Khalid: 5th bogey in sight.......going in for the kill......

Controller: Khalid! break!....break immediately...there is a bogey at your tail....

Khalid: There is nothing on my RWR but breaking left.......coming around....nothing found....

Controller: perhaps that was a mistake....

Khalid: Bogeys are out of sight now......

Minhas to Rafiqui: Missile coming from 12'o clock with the launch aircraft at 20 miles...it must be a BVR..

Rafiqui: Deploying towed radar decoy...breaking right

Rafiqui : Flare catridge empty!

Masud : Rafiqui, you should disengage now....fighting in the enemy skies without flares can be fatal.....

Rafiqui : Minhas! close in...follow me through all maneuvers......release flares when I tell you.....

Controller: Sir Sajjad and wingman are engaging the Phalcon without waiting for Rafiqui.....

Sajjad : Launching 2 Sidewinders on Phalcon.....Splash One!!! Right wing destroyed. Phalcon going down......

Dilawar : But the indian fighters are still guided by AWACS.....Sir look at three'o clock, the real Phalcon is there.....it was dummy...

Masud: Were there any intelligence reports of a dummy AWACS?
Inam : No Sir, it was a surprise.

Controller to Masud: Sir a formation is heading towards Kahuta.....You must order CAP to intercept it....

Masud : Inam, you are incharge now.....

Controller : 8 more bogeys heading towards you....
Controller : Rafiqui has gone down Sir......

Sajjad : Bingo level reached! disengaging.......

Inam: Abort! Abort! Mission Aborted......All of you are ordered to abort the mission.....

Dilawar: Target is in sight but ...ok disengaging.....

Controller:Minhas! you are ordered to disengage.....

Inam: where is he now?

Controller: Sir he is heading towards Phalcon....2 miles away....

Sajjad : Entering the safe corridor for egress......

Dilawar: Crossing LoC......

Alam: Escorting Mirages and crossing LoC......

Khalid: Crossing LoC...

Inam : what are plans of Minhas? Is he going to shoot down the big Phalcon with few rounds of his gun?

Controller : I repeat Minhas......you are ordered to disengage and proceed to safe corridor over LoC......

Minhas: I have burnt my boats, there is no retreat when target is in sight. This flying suite is my coffin. I swear to the blood of Rafiqui, this Phalcon is going down....

Masud: Whats going on here.....

Controller: Phalcon going down....Minhas out of screen Sir....Indian formatin over kahuta has lost contact with AWACS and they are bugging out.

Masud: This nation shall remember Minhas forever. I am recommending NH for him.

AWACS is used for early airborne detection so how it missed the PAF'S Flights?i dont think Paf's mirages are fifth generation so feel it as biggest flaw,in usual case aWACS will pass the signals of Paf And su-30mki fill finish rest of the business.

 

[Comet]

AWACS is used for early airborne detection so how it missed the PAF'S Flights?i dont think Paf's mirages are fifth generation so feel it as biggest flaw,in usual case aWACS will pass the signals of Paf And su-30mki fill finish rest of the business.

Didn't you read? The Phalcon vectored 4 MKIs and 4 Mig29s to intercept.

 

[Waffen SS]

Well what can I say. My countrymen just tirelessly continue with this day dreaming.

God help my country and her citizens.

 

[Marxist]

Didn't you read? The Phalcon vectored 4 MKIs and 4 Mig29s to intercept.

ok my mistake but still how your old mirages overcame mki's i feel it as exagrating

 

[shehbazi2001]

ok my mistake but still how your old mirages overcame mki's i feel it as exagrating

I mentioned that Escorts fought with Fulcrums and Flankers, not Mirages. Mirages were tasked to neutralize Phalcon only. But defensive maneuvering was shown for Mirages.

There were some guys who referred to the post as " day dreaming" or so........Everybody knows that Pakistan does not want war....but if war is imposed, then every possible measure will (or can) be taken to thwart the aggressor. AWACS being a strategic asset, would certainly come under fire.

 

[shehbazi2001]

2 issues I think

1. You wont know when and where it lands..
2. Range and speed may be an issue. Even with the 700 km range of Babur, if you try to hit a field 400 km away from the Babur battery, it will take the missile 30 minutes or so to reach the target(max speed 550 miles / hr). The AWACS in the air will have enough time to detect and warn the airfield being attacked to allow the AWACS on the ground to get back into air..

The point you raised is good. But you know that a Cruise missile can be programmed to follow certain waypoints and you can change its altitude and trajectory according to your needs. So a cruise missile can follow a 'deception trajectory' to AWACS base. At start, it would seem as if its going for some other airbase, but on the last leg, it would turn towards its real target.

Then you can fly it at tree-top levels and in the natural terrain cover. Keeping in view that its RCS would be too small, I doubt that even AWACS will be able to detect incoming cruise missile at sufficient range to inform the base of impending strike well in advance. May be AWACS shall give a short warning, but not much.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Nice hypothetical scenario,but unfortunately it had started war of words between Indians and Pakistani

ITS unfair to ask question a story,but we have Our SAM's in LOC to shoot down uR Planes

Dozens of worst-case scenarios have been painted against Pakistan like militants capturing our nuclear assets and so on.......what if I presented a scenario in favor of Pakistan......and its not about war of words.....its a discussion forum and my motivation is primarily to learn and have an exchange of ideas....so we can have a debate here but not a shouting contest or misbehaviour.

 

[Mahakaya]

Take the phalcon out while its refueling on the ground. One Babur will do the trick.

Yes then watch out for the Brahmos in HUGE NUMBERS!

 

[ramu]

The point you raised is good. But you know that a Cruise missile can be programmed to follow certain waypoints and you can change its altitude and trajectory according to your needs. So a cruise missile can follow a 'deception trajectory' to AWACS base. At start, it would seem as if its going for some other airbase, but on the last leg, it would turn towards its real target.

Then you can fly it at tree-top levels and in the natural terrain cover. Keeping in view that its RCS would be too small, I doubt that even AWACS will be able to detect incoming cruise missile at sufficient range to inform the base of impending strike well in advance. May be AWACS shall give a short warning, but not much.

Totally agreed but the possibility of a hit with such deception is one in hundred. The possibility of deception will dwindle down to zero if another Phalcon is air borne. India plans to have atleast 6 Phalcons and the possibility of scan overlap and deployment for mutual cover is high.

 

[Mahakaya]

Disclaimer: Please note that this is a hypothetical scenario. The names of Minhas, Alam , Khalid and Rafiqui have been chosen for their historical relevance only. All other names and characters have been chosen randomly. Any coincidence would only be by chance.

PHALCON MEETS ITS NEMESIS

Masud: Gentlemen its urgent. We have to send a mission in an hour against IAF Phalcon in the Northern Sector. We have lost element of surprise. All sorties are monitored by Phalcon right from the take-off. During dogfights, Phalcon is acting as a virtual wingman for each Su-30 and these Flankers have enough confidence to operate alone too.

Shamim: what happened to the earlier missions sent by southern command to neutralise Phalcon that is operating over their area?

Alam : So far no success. But I think our northern command should also send some mission.

Inam : We have aleady lost 4 pilots and I dont know why we are still crazy about Phalcon.

Alam: Yes but we shot down 12 of theirs.

Inam : Its impossible. The numerical superiority of the enemy is overwhelming. Continuing to fight for this objective is useless.

Masud: Our job is to find the possibilities and do the impossible. This nation depends on us. History is looking to us. I am sending Mirages to attack Phalcon.

Shamim: Why not F-16s?

Masud: Falcons will be escorting them. Rafiqui shall attack the Phalcon from above and Sajjad shall attack from beneath. Both shall go simultaneously and fire the missiles forward. Rafiqui is to pull-up after attack in a upward loop and Sajjad is to pull a split-S in a downward loop. The pattern is to repeated, if circumstances allow, to cripple the Phalcon. Dilawar and Minhas shall be wingmen to Sajjad and Rafiqui respectively. Wingman shall take the lead if leader encounters a problem. Escort will be given to you. You shall avoid any unnecessary air combat and proceed to your objective. In case of casualties, you are free to reform pairs. Remember to disengage at Bingo. Everyone is to take one flare catridge for R73 and one blinding flare catridge for Python missiles, which use IIR. For dogfights take a mix of Magic-2s and AIM-9Ms. Your escorts will be carrying AMRAAMs.

Masud: Alam! providing air cover to Mirages is your responsibility. Take Khalid as your wingman.

Masud: Any question?? If No then its time to scramble. I shall be monitoring the mission. Phalcon of the northern sector is now over Srinagar.

AFTER 20 minutes......

Controller: Sir Mirages are crossing LoC.....8 bogeys approaching in pairs, 4 Mig-29s from behind and 4 Su-30s at 60 degree angle-off,

Masud: At which range?

Controller: Mig-29s at 30 miles and flankers at 40 miles, Sir.

Masud: where is Alam? He should be somewhere near........

Controller: Not visible on scope Sir...no radio contact....

Controller: Radar lock reported on Mirages....possibly a BVR shot......releasing chaff....

Masud: Call Alam to engage.....

Controller: No response from Alam Sir...

Shamim: Sir I told you he is a maverick, he can't be trusted with orders....

Masud: May be he is in radio silence....

Controller: 2 BVR missiles launched at leading Mirages by Flankers......

Alam: Drop tanks away, going head to head with bogeys, changing from tight to battle formation.....

Sajjad: Diving for the deck,

Controller: Sir Alam and Khalid were flying very tight abreast formation with Mirages and so were a single blip on our scope.

Masud: where did the BVRs go?

Controller: Sir Alam and Khalid pulled horizontal scissors maneuvers with missiles passing in between the two.....

Alam to Khalid :dont be exactly at my tail....while horizontal, you are to fly 1000 feet above me and 1000 feet behind...whenever a Fulcrum or Flanker pulls a Cobra, you roast him....in the verticals, you are to fly at the same altitude as me but 500 feet apart towards the inner side of the loop...In horizontal, you are to release flares downwards and I shall release flares upwards...same for the chaff...In verticals, release flares directly backwards......

Alam : Two Fulcrums locked up together.....releasing two AMRAAMs......Fox 1...
Khalid : Two Flankers locked.........unleashing AMRAAMs....

Alam: 4 bogeys down...getting close now....

Alam : Zooming up on Fulcrum....closing in....impossible to take lead... Fulcrum turning too tight......Khalid he must be in your sight....

Khalid : Yes Sir, he is....giving him a dose of bullets...Fulcrum smoking and going down....

Alam: Going after the Flanker....Flanker pulling Cobra....Khalid bite him!!!!!!
Khalid : Guns thundering....Flanker dead....They would not do Cobra again....

Alam : Look right Khalid...R-73 fired from 60 degree off-boresight.........
Khalid: Deploying proximity fuse jammer and releasing R73C flares.....

Controller: Sir Alam has become PAF's second ACE after 1965....and Khalid needs one more shot to become ACE....

Khalid: 5th bogey in sight.......going in for the kill......

Controller: Khalid! break!....break immediately...there is a bogey at your tail....

Khalid: There is nothing on my RWR but breaking left.......coming around....nothing found....

Controller: perhaps that was a mistake....

Khalid: Bogeys are out of sight now......

Minhas to Rafiqui: Missile coming from 12'o clock with the launch aircraft at 20 miles...it must be a BVR..

Rafiqui: Deploying towed radar decoy...breaking right

Rafiqui : Flare catridge empty!

Masud : Rafiqui, you should disengage now....fighting in the enemy skies without flares can be fatal.....

Rafiqui : Minhas! close in...follow me through all maneuvers......release flares when I tell you.....

Controller: Sir Sajjad and wingman are engaging the Phalcon without waiting for Rafiqui.....

Sajjad : Launching 2 Sidewinders on Phalcon.....Splash One!!! Right wing destroyed. Phalcon going down......

Dilawar : But the indian fighters are still guided by AWACS.....Sir look at three'o clock, the real Phalcon is there.....it was dummy...

Masud: Were there any intelligence reports of a dummy AWACS?
Inam : No Sir, it was a surprise.

Controller to Masud: Sir a formation is heading towards Kahuta.....You must order CAP to intercept it....

Masud : Inam, you are incharge now.....

Controller : 8 more bogeys heading towards you....
Controller : Rafiqui has gone down Sir......

Sajjad : Bingo level reached! disengaging.......

Inam: Abort! Abort! Mission Aborted......All of you are ordered to abort the mission.....

Dilawar: Target is in sight but ...ok disengaging.....

Controller:Minhas! you are ordered to disengage.....

Inam: where is he now?

Controller: Sir he is heading towards Phalcon....2 miles away....

Sajjad : Entering the safe corridor for egress......

Dilawar: Crossing LoC......

Alam: Escorting Mirages and crossing LoC......

Khalid: Crossing LoC...

Inam : what are plans of Minhas? Is he going to shoot down the big Phalcon with few rounds of his gun?

Controller : I repeat Minhas......you are ordered to disengage and proceed to safe corridor over LoC......

Minhas: I have burnt my boats, there is no retreat when target is in sight. This flying suite is my coffin. I swear to the blood of Rafiqui, this Phalcon is going down....

Masud: Whats going on here.....

Controller: Phalcon going down....Minhas out of screen Sir....Indian formatin over kahuta has lost contact with AWACS and they are bugging out.

Masud: This nation shall remember Minhas forever. I am recommending NH for him.

UFF UNREALISTIC AND BORING AT BEST:

NEEND AA GAYI YAAR - GOOD NIGHT AND HAVE FUN EVERYONE!

AND PLEASE DONT MAKE THIS GUY A REAL THINK TANK!

GOOD NIGHT EVERYONE!

 

[karan.1970]

The point you raised is good. But you know that a Cruise missile can be programmed to follow certain waypoints and you can change its altitude and trajectory according to your needs. So a cruise missile can follow a 'deception trajectory' to AWACS base. At start, it would seem as if its going for some other airbase, but on the last leg, it would turn towards its real target.

Then you can fly it at tree-top levels and in the natural terrain cover. Keeping in view that its RCS would be too small, I doubt that even AWACS will be able to detect incoming cruise missile at sufficient range to inform the base of impending strike well in advance. May be AWACS shall give a short warning, but not much.

Still, a little far fetched approach.. Too many variables.. specially the landing point. For all you know, it may do so out side the range of babbur i.e. 700 km or so if I am not wrong.

Also while cruise missile is programmable and can fly at low levels, one of the specific abilities of modern AWACS is to detect a low flying cruise missiles.. That coupled with a good CIWS / AA system around key air fields take care of this threat..

The most difficult variable for Pakistan in this scenario will be to find the time and place of the AWACS landing..