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Persuading China to cooperate against the North

Aepsilons

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WASHINGTON – Another North Korean nuclear test, another round of demands that China bring Pyongyang to heel. Said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry: Beijing’s policy “has not worked and we cannot continue business as usual.” Alas, his approach will encourage China to dismiss Washington’s wishes.

North Korea may be the most vexing problem for the United States and its allies. Three successive U.S. presidents have insisted that the North simply cannot, must not, develop nuclear weapons. Yet it has. So attention naturally shifts toward China, which joined Washington in criticizing the latest blast. China is the North’s most important investor and provides it with substantial energy and food assistance. Beijing also has protected North Korea by weakening past U.N. sanctions and enforcing those imposed with less than due diligence. If only China would get tough, runs the argument, Pyongyang would have to give way.

Alas, Chinese intervention is not the panacea many appear to believe. Contrary to common belief in Washington, the U.S. cannot dictate to China. Threats are only likely to make the Chinese leadership more recalcitrant.

In fact, Beijing’s reluctance to wreck the North Korean state is understandable. If the administration wants to enlist China’s aid, it must convince Beijing that acting is in China’s, not America’s, best interest.

That requires addressing China’s concerns. While unpredictable, obstinate, and irritating, so far North Korea is not a major problem for China. Economic cooperation remains profitable.

The North disrupts American regional dominance and forces Seoul and Washington to beg Beijing for assistance in dealing with North Korea. Even Pyongyang’s growing nuclear arsenal poses no obvious threat to China.

Why, then, should China sacrifice its political influence and economic interests? A Chinese cut-off of energy and food would cause great hardship in the North. But a half million or more people died of starvation during the late 1990s without any change in North Korean policy. Thus, Pyongyang may refuse to bend. The result might be a return to the 1990s, with a horrific collapse in living conditions but regime survival—and continued development of nuclear weapons.

Even worse, from Beijing’s standpoint, Russia, which recently revived its relationship with Pyongyang, might save North Korea. In either case, China would have compromised its position for nothing.

Or the North Korean regime might collapse, with the possibility of violent conflict, social chaos, loose nukes and mass refugee flows. China might feel forced to intervene militarily to stabilize the North.

Moreover, in a united Republic of Korea, China’s political influence would ebb. Chinese business investments would be swept away. Worse, a reunited Korea allied with America would put U.S. troops on China’s border and aid Washington’s ill-disguised attempt at military containment.

Overall, then, sanctioning the North appears to create enormous benefits for Beijing’s rivals but few advantages for China.

Washington, Seoul and Tokyo must make a compelling case to China. They should begin by pointing out how unstable the current situation is, with an unpredictable, uncontrollable regime dedicated to creating a nuclear arsenal of undetermined size. Much could go wrong — to China’s detriment.

At the same time, the U.S. and South Korea, along with Japan, should put together a serious offer for the North in return for denuclearization. China has repeatedly insisted that America’s hostile policy underlies the North Korean nuclear program. Beijing responded acerbically to Washington’s latest criticism: “The key to solving the problem is not China.”

The three allied countries should offer a peace treaty, diplomatic recognition, membership in international organizations, the end of economic sanctions, foreign aid, suspension of joint military exercises and discussions over ending America’s troop presence. This should be presented to China with a request for the latter’s backing.

At the same time, the U.S., South Korea and Japan should promise to share the cost of caring for North Koreans and restoring order in the case of regime collapse. The U.S. and South should indicate their willingness to accept temporary Chinese military intervention in the event of bloody chaos.

Seoul should promise to respect Beijing’s economic interests while pointing to the far greater opportunities that would exist in a unified Korea. Finally, Washington should pledge to withdraw U.S. troops in the event of unification.

Getting Beijing’s cooperation still would be a long-shot. But the effort is worth a try. The U.S., South Korea and Japan have run out of options to forestall a nuclear North Korea.

Persuading China to cooperate against the North | The Japan Times
 
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I don't think China has any leverage over NK anymore. NK is a big boy now it doesn't need a guardian. they have JUCHE they have built MRBM and even ICBMS!! they developed and detonated the atom bomb, and now claim to have the H-bomb!!

any leverage China has is now gone.


just look at this map


map-population-asia-china-india.jpg


China major urban centers are only a stones throw away from NK

2000px-North_Korean_missile_range.svg.png




the rational Chinese are facing an irrational NK
 
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I don't think China has any leverage over NK anymore. NK is a big boy now it doesn't need a guardian. they have JUCHE they have built MRBM and even ICBMS!! they developed and detonated the atom bomb, and now claim to have the H-bomb!!

any leverage China has is now gone.


just look at this map


map-population-asia-china-india.jpg


China major urban centers are only a stones throw away from NK

2000px-North_Korean_missile_range.svg.png




the rational Chinese are facing an irrational NK

Yes, it appears that North Korea could also threaten the most populous, industrialized, most developed areas of China. More of a reason for China to cooperate with South Korea, Japan and others to help contain Pyongyang. Before its too late.
 
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America contributed in a big way to NK's nuclear program. Remember Saddam? Gaddafi? No nukes equals regime change. Don't really care to point fingers, but it is what it is.

Now onto this particular topic, the author fails to address his key question, how can America offer enough to China that we help. The answer to his question is that he has no answers.

China has enough analyst in Beijing and enough intelligence in NK that we know about the key points of NK. Explaining the situation is stupid, I mean even if we don't, when was the last time you seen someone was convinced based on words alone.


The real problem for the US and the author is US interests, he wants to preserve US interests in the region, we don't. Meaning we conflict on this point, if he can take the US out of it. This is a non-problem.

China reserving the military option to solve NK means we have far better leverage should we take NK, rather than relying on an American promise. Not saying America wouldn't leave should that happens, but would the Americans in Japan? Any clumsy excuse can delay an evacuation indefinitely.

The master of these excuses that is China, won't fall for that easily.

Going about the problem alone for China is key, because China and America both thinks about what happens when NK falls, and no one is placing much thought on the North Koreans.

I don't think China has any leverage over NK anymore. NK is a big boy now it doesn't need a guardian. they have JUCHE they have built MRBM and even ICBMS!! they developed and detonated the atom bomb, and now claim to have the H-bomb!!

any leverage China has is now gone.


just look at this map


map-population-asia-china-india.jpg


China major urban centers are only a stones throw away from NK

2000px-North_Korean_missile_range.svg.png




the rational Chinese are facing an irrational NK
What do we need leverage for? To get the North to do what we want? America is doing a good enough job as it is, why should we mess up a good thing when it isn't broken.
 
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America contributed in a big way to NK's nuclear program. Remember Saddam? Gaddafi? No nukes equals regime change. Don't really care to point fingers, but it is what it is.

Now onto this particular topic, the author fails to address his key question, how can America offer enough to China that we help. The answer to his question is that he has no answers.

China has enough analyst in Beijing and enough intelligence in NK that we know about the key points of NK. Explaining the situation is stupid, I mean even if we don't, when was the last time you seen someone was convinced based on words alone.


The real problem for the US and the author is US interests, he wants to preserve US interests in the region, we don't. Meaning we conflict on this point, if he can take the US out of it. This is a non-problem.

China reserving the military option to solve NK means we have far better leverage should we take NK, rather than relying on an American promise. Not saying America wouldn't leave should that happens, but would the Americans in Japan? Any clumsy excuse can delay an evacuation indefinitely.

The master of these excuses that is China, won't fall for that easily.

Going about the problem alone for China is key, because China and America both thinks about what happens when NK falls, and no one is placing much thought on the North Koreans.


What do we need leverage for? To get the North to do what we want? America is doing a good enough job as it is, why should we mess up a good thing when it isn't broken.


you clearly like having a unstable country on your border with hundreds of missiles and adozen of nukes :flame:


but maybe you have unwavering trust in the Norks that they wouldn't black mail you for billions of dollars a year to keep their regime going, but i do know for the fact when the nuke bombs start hitting NK it's going to cause some ecological damage to China and the region for many years to come :guns:

you play with fire you get burned
 
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you clearly like having a unstable country on your border with hundreds of missiles and a dozen of nukes :flame:

Unstable is relative, I mean if all your media is to be believed, I think China was suppose to get a regime change every third week or so.

What you see as unstable, we see as quite good. A good cook can't just use low heat to avoid burns, he must be able to control the heat, and make it work for him, lots of dishes needs high heat to achieve the desired result. We are known as pretty good cooks.


but maybe you have unwavering trust in the Norks that they wouldn't black mail you for billions of dollars a year to keep their regime going, but i do know for the fact when the the nuke bombs start hitting NK it's going to cause some ecological damage to China and the region :guns:

Who's going to launch nukes? You? I think we're safe. You Americans may not give a damn about us, but you sure as hell do about Japan and Korea, guess where they are.

Trust is also relative, a rather trustworthy country like the US, I believe is very untrustworthy when it comes to Asia. For Taiwan and Philippines, I mean. Yet when it comes to us, I believe the US is to be trusted.

Trust, in real terms, is one's ability to handle the situation, any blind putting of faith is simply superstition and holds no real value. Hence, yes we do trust Kim.
 
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Unstable is relative, I mean if all your media is to be believed, I think China was suppose to get a regime change every third week or so.

What you see as unstable, we see as quite good. A good cook can't just use low heat to avoid burns, he must be able to control the heat, and make it work for him, lots of dishes needs high heat to achieve the desired result. We are known as pretty good cooks.

What!?

Gen, cut the bull and talk plainly, please.
 
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What!?

Gen, cut the bull and talk plainly, please.
Plainly? That's boring. But ok.

If North Korea is simply some small country with no issues, that's Mongolia. They may not cause trouble, but they also won't serve any purpose.

North Korea, as long as managed correctly, can be quite useful. Just like the Philippines is to the US, North Korea is to us. Except way more so. Use them to annoy the hell out of the other, and force them to act.

Don't stay in the university too much, come into the real world, it's fun. Perfectionists are losers, because we live in an imperfect world.
 
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GOOD LUCK .... China will not do it even if Japan offers China the world.
 
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North Korea, as long as managed correctly, can be quite useful. Just like the Philippines is to the US, North Korea is to us. Except way more so. Use them to annoy the hell out of the other, and force them to act.

;)
 
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WASHINGTON – Another North Korean nuclear test, another round of demands that China bring Pyongyang to heel. Said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry: Beijing’s policy “has not worked and we cannot continue business as usual.” Alas, his approach will encourage China to dismiss Washington’s wishes.

North Korea may be the most vexing problem for the United States and its allies. Three successive U.S. presidents have insisted that the North simply cannot, must not, develop nuclear weapons. Yet it has. So attention naturally shifts toward China, which joined Washington in criticizing the latest blast. China is the North’s most important investor and provides it with substantial energy and food assistance. Beijing also has protected North Korea by weakening past U.N. sanctions and enforcing those imposed with less than due diligence. If only China would get tough, runs the argument, Pyongyang would have to give way.

Alas, Chinese intervention is not the panacea many appear to believe. Contrary to common belief in Washington, the U.S. cannot dictate to China. Threats are only likely to make the Chinese leadership more recalcitrant.

In fact, Beijing’s reluctance to wreck the North Korean state is understandable. If the administration wants to enlist China’s aid, it must convince Beijing that acting is in China’s, not America’s, best interest.

That requires addressing China’s concerns. While unpredictable, obstinate, and irritating, so far North Korea is not a major problem for China. Economic cooperation remains profitable.

The North disrupts American regional dominance and forces Seoul and Washington to beg Beijing for assistance in dealing with North Korea. Even Pyongyang’s growing nuclear arsenal poses no obvious threat to China.

Why, then, should China sacrifice its political influence and economic interests? A Chinese cut-off of energy and food would cause great hardship in the North. But a half million or more people died of starvation during the late 1990s without any change in North Korean policy. Thus, Pyongyang may refuse to bend. The result might be a return to the 1990s, with a horrific collapse in living conditions but regime survival—and continued development of nuclear weapons.

Even worse, from Beijing’s standpoint, Russia, which recently revived its relationship with Pyongyang, might save North Korea. In either case, China would have compromised its position for nothing.

Or the North Korean regime might collapse, with the possibility of violent conflict, social chaos, loose nukes and mass refugee flows. China might feel forced to intervene militarily to stabilize the North.

Moreover, in a united Republic of Korea, China’s political influence would ebb. Chinese business investments would be swept away. Worse, a reunited Korea allied with America would put U.S. troops on China’s border and aid Washington’s ill-disguised attempt at military containment.

Overall, then, sanctioning the North appears to create enormous benefits for Beijing’s rivals but few advantages for China.

Washington, Seoul and Tokyo must make a compelling case to China. They should begin by pointing out how unstable the current situation is, with an unpredictable, uncontrollable regime dedicated to creating a nuclear arsenal of undetermined size. Much could go wrong — to China’s detriment.

At the same time, the U.S. and South Korea, along with Japan, should put together a serious offer for the North in return for denuclearization. China has repeatedly insisted that America’s hostile policy underlies the North Korean nuclear program. Beijing responded acerbically to Washington’s latest criticism: “The key to solving the problem is not China.”

The three allied countries should offer a peace treaty, diplomatic recognition, membership in international organizations, the end of economic sanctions, foreign aid, suspension of joint military exercises and discussions over ending America’s troop presence. This should be presented to China with a request for the latter’s backing.

At the same time, the U.S., South Korea and Japan should promise to share the cost of caring for North Koreans and restoring order in the case of regime collapse. The U.S. and South should indicate their willingness to accept temporary Chinese military intervention in the event of bloody chaos.

Seoul should promise to respect Beijing’s economic interests while pointing to the far greater opportunities that would exist in a unified Korea. Finally, Washington should pledge to withdraw U.S. troops in the event of unification.

Getting Beijing’s cooperation still would be a long-shot. But the effort is worth a try. The U.S., South Korea and Japan have run out of options to forestall a nuclear North Korea.

Persuading China to cooperate against the North | The Japan Times
Actually United States is the major cause of the tension in the Korean Peninsula. What United State wants is regime change. That is why North Korea is still on US list as the axis of evil and why US refused to sign a peace threaty with N Korea.
US do not want to see peace so that they can justify they military presence.

China policy on N Korea is the best policy. That is No war, no collapse and no nuclear weapons. Nothing else is workable.

S Korea policy is more or less the same. They also prop up the N Koreans via the large industrial zone providing millions to Kim.
 
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North Korea is just bluffing. No need to overreacting.
 
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you clearly like having a unstable country on your border with hundreds of missiles and adozen of nukes :flame:

I would think the main reason NK developing nuclear bombs is for self-protection. Without nuclear weapons, the superior leader might become next Mr. Saddam or Mr. Gaddafi. Based on NK's statement, if US can sign a peace treaty, they will abandon their nuclear program.
 
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Actually United States is the major cause of the tension in the Korean Peninsula. What United State wants is regime change. That is why North Korea is still on US list as the axis of evil and why US refused to sign a peace threaty with N Korea.
US do not want to see peace so that they can justify they military presence.

China policy on N Korea is the best policy. That is No war, no collapse and no nuclear weapons. Nothing else is workable.

S Korea policy is more or less the same. They also prop up the N Koreans via the large industrial zone providing millions to Kim.

Thanks for sharing your input, so in other words, you believe that the Korean interstate paradigm is being used as a proxy mechanism between Washington and Beijing and is in fact a tool for both powers to have control / influence in the region. I don't necessarily disagree with this analysis.
 
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Proliferation is inevitable. Japan should think about the nuclear option now, at least for deterrence. I expect a nuclear Iran & Saudi in next decade.
 
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