Patent analysis shows how PAK-FA differs from F-22 in air combat philosophy

[egodoc222]

I wouldn't give too much on the estimated price now. We know that such fighter developments get more costly than estimated, that is even more likely for a Indo-Russian fighter development and if we take to account that FGFA is meant to be an improved version, not like the early Pak Fa, logic tells us that it will result into further cost increases too.
So lets wait and see on that.

would we get some pak fa before or we have to wait for fgfa???

 

[sancho]

would we get some pak fa before or we have to wait for fgfa???

Personally, I would had chosen 40 x early Pak Fa instead of the 40 x MKIs and at least in a leasing contract, but IAF officials had stated that they want the FGFA with all NG capabilities.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

It has always been a fight between the sword and the sheild. One makes a sharper sword then the other makes a sheild to stop it. This has been going on for years and the technology advanced.

 

[egodoc222]

Personally, I would had chosen 40 x early Pak Fa instead of the 40 x MKIs and at least in a leasing contract, but IAF officials had stated that they want the FGFA with all NG capabilities.

that would delay things for sure...iaf should've opted for at least 2-3 sqd of pak fa off shelf or knocked down kits!!!
i dont see fgfa cmnd before 2025

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

'No first use' is only applicable to nuclear weapons, not to any trigger. Aircrafts violating our airspace will most probably be shot down, without waiting for them to shoot first. Atlantique...

Atlantique has the size of an airliner and BVR .. Shooting a plane like tht in Pak waters ... And than boasting about it .. That's pathetic and utterly disgusting to say the least..

 

[janon]

Atlantique has the size of an airliner and BVR .. Shooting a plane like tht in Pak waters ... And than boasting about it .. That's pathetic and utterly disgusting to say the least..

The point was not to boast about ability, but to talk about intent - whether we will fire at intruding aircrafts without being fired at first or not. So all those excuses about RCS are unnecessary, save your breath.

The only pathetic thing here is your inability to understand the context of a post.

 

[duhastmish]

Death of a pilot is not a joke or laughing matter.
Pakistan with almost no budget can still give some tough replies now that's something.

And every single indian pilot respect **** pilot.

Don't forget the addon system such as weapons, number of jet, satellites, AWACS India posses where Pakistan lack. They still reply well.

 

[janon]

Death of a pilot is not a joke or laughing matter.
Pakistan with almost no budget can still give some tough replies now that's something.

And every single indian pilot respect **** pilot.

Don't forget the addon system such as weapons, number of jet, satellites, AWACS India posses where Pakistan lack. They still reply well.

Pak has more AWACS than India does, and had them before India did.

 

[gambit]

Rather, passive detection will be more headache for 5th Jen fighters than conventional radars. What do you say?

Radar detection is a two-parts process: Transmit (active) and Receive (passive).

In the majority of the world's radars in use, civilian and military, one antenna does both jobs. The antenna will transmit for X amount of time, then be silent for equal amount of time to see if any reflections are available. What this means is that there is one owner for both processes: YOU.

YOU control the operating freq, the direction of operation, the duration of operation, the intensity of operation, etc...So as long as you know those parameters, your data processing will be more accurate and precise.

In a purely passive detection system, there must still be an active process somewhere generating signals to (hopefully) reflects off bodies. The problem now is that you are not the owner/originator of those signals. You have no control over those parameters. Your data processing codes must now be written to compensate for as wide a variety of signals characteristics as possible, or more like as much as you can guess that might be in the area.

Generally, these systems are of the bi-static radar concept where at least two antennas are available and they must be physically spaced apart in order to prevent the transmission signals contaminating the receiver antenna. The bi-static radar is the greatest threat to 'stealth' but precisely because of the need for at least two antennas, the system is cumbersome to deploy and have limited mobility.

You can see an example of such a system here...

52E6MU Struna-1MU / Barrier E Bistatic Radar

But in such a system, you are still the owner/originator of the transmission signals while in a purely passive detection system, the bi-static concept is still necessary but you are not in control of the transmission signals. You can try to use TV or cell phone signals that are plentiful in the sky but again, precisely because you are not the owner/originator of those signals, there will be gaps in coverage. Gaps that a clever adversary -- like US -- can exploit. It is not that the US have no experiments with this concept, Lockheed is working on the Silent Sentry system. Another vulnerability is what if that adversary destroy or severely damage the central power station that those TV and cell phone towers relies upon to operate? Now you will have even greater coverage gaps or worse: no transmission signals at all.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

History of PAF says that even if we shoot down your airliner-sized targets full of people, you
won't dare shoot our's down, even if we intrude.

It's called professionalism ... Shooting down planes in peace time... Special slow moving giant patrol aircrafts... Nope...

Although we just force them to land... Last one was a heli a year or so back... The pilot forced to land ... Interrogated and released.. But data taken..

The PAF fiasco of 1971 still haunts you.

You mean a fiasco in whih PAF opened a can of whoopass like always.. And zapping your top gun?

No like a professional officer.

Yes landing his aircraft when forced by the enemy..

No ask the Atlantique pilot who wet his pants like hell when MiG-21 got him spiked. Oh wait...
you can't ask him. He's dead.

But according to you guys he did t give a damn when warned by the chicken fried iaf pilot.. Who probably shit his pants when he was deep fried ? Karma bites in the ***.. Karma is a Hindu concept u believe right????


Talk shit about our martyrs .. I tried my best not to reply in the same tone ... but couldn't control myself after your repeated bitching .. But dipshits like you deserve it..

@Aeronaut

F-16 didn't dare cross the border, just came close, and ran away after -29 locked it. If it crossed over it
would be shot.

Did mig 29 cross the border ???

This is where the difference lies. F-16 did not cross border, but MKI did!
MKI retreated after crossing many kms into Pakistan, your F-16 ran even before touching our
border.

Lmao no son it tried but failed n ran with its tails between its legs.. Didn't want a AMRAAM up its ***..

and just for info...we flew our planes all over your land day & night collecting info and clicking
pictures, and I'm talking about peacetime sorties only.

You funny ..


Unfortunately India cries abt PAF violations all the time.. So no cookie..for you..

Remember the FOXBAT ? Or should I remind you?

IAF MiG-25 incursion over Pakistan in 1997

Came right over Islamabad...gathered intel and returned safe and sound.

Let me see you flying your jets over Delhi, lol.

No we just raped pathankot ,ambala and hellalot of other bases. and sonic booms over India during war.. And all u can do is talk about a sonic boom decades ago...

Even 8 Pass Charlie used to make you shit bricks..

Whatever...your shit got shot down in peacetime, and all because you didn't know how to follow the
rules...hence we showed you the ground. Hit it!

Lmao bitching about shooting an unarmed prop patrol craft in Pak territory .. While getting shit canned in war.. I salute you..

Not many can be this shameless ..

Pak has more AWACS than India does, and had them before India did.

Nope I think India got them first..

 

[banvanaxl]

So say with the appearance of each generation of fighters. Reality refutes this idea.

Totally agree with that. Would like to point out that every time NATO (read as USAF trained pilots) downed a MiG, they were flying against poorly trained pilots from 3rd world countries with little or no training on sims and modern air combat doctrines.

Result .. it has been a fashion to debunk the russian air combat philosophy and take it for granted that whatever the western doctrines preaches about air combat is the last word.

We could not be more incorrect, history teaches us so. Take the vietnam war for example. The Sabres and the phantoms where downed by the dozen by the MiG 17s and MiG 21s being piloted by jocks freshly trained by Russians. The 1971 bangladesh war brings memories of air combat which stamped the superiority of the Russian air doctrine irrevocably in the sub continent. So much so that Western air experts wrote books about how flawed the American ideas of dogfighting was till that date.
ref. Coggins, Ed. Wings That Stay on. Nashville, Kentucky: Turner Publishing Company, 2000.

Another spinoff of that comprehensive air victory came about when Iraq immediately paid India a yet undisclosed sum of money to train 120 young iraqi pilots to use their newly acquired MiG 21 FLs which were later used during the Iran Iraq war with overwhelming success.

The USAF or the NATO air forces have never till date faced off against a modern air force with trained pilots flying russian machines. The victories they've had till now over them russian machines look very good on paper. But they know thats exactly all there is to it until the day they've faced a modern fighting force with all the assorted paraphernalia, a victory on paper.

 

[SQ8]

Not on all fields, but the early Pak Fa will surly set the benchmark of 5th gen fighters in overall 5th gen capabilities, since it combines what divides F22 and F35. Even if it would not be as stealthy as the F22, it offers better flight performance, sensor and most likely even load capabilities. Compared to the F35 it most likely will be even superior in stealth let alone most other 5th gen capabilities. So only because people tend to downplay the capability of Pak Fa, one shouldn't be honor the innovations and capabilities the Russians came up with, ALTHOUGH everybody said they couldn't after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Well, it may be a Jack of all trades in flight characteristics but I have a difficult time believing the RCS figures. Its not about downplaying the capabilities, its about putting them in their place. The whole article starts off with an advertisement pitch, then a bit humble to lower your guard.. and then shoots of amazing conclusions out of nowhere.

 

[gambit]

Totally agree with that. Would like to point out that every time NATO (read as USAF trained pilots) downed a MiG, they were flying against poorly trained pilots from 3rd world countries with little or no training on sims and modern air combat doctrines.

The Soviets had their version of 'modern air combat doctrines'. You have a false understanding of 'doctrine' to start.

doctrine:
a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group.

We knew even before the defection of MIG-25 pilot Viktor Belenko that the Soviets had a different set of beliefs on how to conduct an air war: centralized control and command. Belenko confirmed our suspicions and even refined what we lacked in our suspicions.

So when a country buy fighters from another country, guess what doctrine will accompany those fighters?

We could not be more incorrect, history teaches us so. Take the vietnam war for example. The Sabres and the phantoms where downed by the dozen by the MiG 17s and MiG 21s being piloted by jocks freshly trained by Russians.

Yes, let us take the Vietnam War, for example. The MIG-21s were flown by Vietnamese pilots trained by Soviets/Chinese pilots and along with those fighters, the North Vietnamese Air Force conducted mostly hit-and-run attacks against heavily laden fighter-bombers on their way to targets. That was the doctrine.

Keyword search for you: Operation Bolo.

In one day, half of the MIG-21s were shot down by American fighters operating under a different air combat doctrine, that of fighters detached from ground control. It was not that the North Vietnamese pilots were not adequately trained. They were very well trained, at least in the operation of an combat aircraft, and in that aspect, they were just as well trained as their American opponents and better than their South Vietnamese counterparts. But doctrine is not about how to operate an aircraft but how to use the aircraft to accomplish a war goal and in this the Soviet way of engaging fighter-to-fighter air combat doctrine served their clients poorly. In the Korean War, MIGs with Chinese markings were flown by Soviet pilots but when they engaged Americans, in order to survive, they had to abandon the Soviet doctrine and use their personal skills to fight, skills that came from WW II.

 

[banvanaxl]

You mean a fiasco in whih PAF opened a can of whoopass like always.. And zapping your top gun?

Nope like the time when PAF was cowering in the caves with their tails between their legs while the Vajras (Indian Mirage 2000's) were unloading tons of whoopass on their brothers in Kargil.

No we just raped pathankot ,ambala and hellalot of other bases. and sonic booms over India during war.. And all u can do is talk about a sonic boom decades ago...
Even 8 Pass Charlie used to make you shit bricks..

PUHLEESSEE, I know the truth stings. even hurts some.. but admitting it is way better then living in state of ignorant bliss.

COMBAT KILLS - 1971 INDO-PAK AIR WAR

Keyword search for you: Operation Bolo.

Thank you. That was indeed an eye opener.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That's what we do if intruding aircraft don't listen to what we say. We bury them

Yeah my 23£.. Bury em .. Lmao

No, the fiasco where PAF started the air war and then sat inside it's hangars shamelessly while IA marched
on to Dhaka.

The lone sqd of old sanctioned f86s shit canned iaf in E.P..fork look at the losses on indian airforce before crying..

...no what was I saying???!!! Professionalism means flying blindly into enemy territory and
killing themselves and everyone onboard your aircraft - and for what purpose? Nothing.

That's called professionalism.

The atlantique was in Pak airspace and it's wreckage proves the fact.. Firing at an unarmed prop patrolling plane .. Very professional... And landing after being forced by the enemy damn thts impressive..

Ofcourse he didn't give a damn about the warnings. As I said, they seem to think Pakistanis are invincible
and that they are made of special material. A result of listening to too much of zaid hamid radio.

Keep pushing your shit .. Facts are for all to see.

But as usually, reality is a b!tch (for the delusional), and hits you hard when it comes. That's what happened
when the Atlantique crew saw a missile coming towards them and no way to evade. What can anyone do
except wet the pants?

Just because indian pilots shit their pants during combat and even land like good little boys when forced doesn't mean PAF follows the same guidelines or mentality .. A proven fact.

It's funny when atheists talk about the vedas. Your troll nature is well known in the forum. What I gave
you is exactly what a troll deserves.

Lmao my troll nature .. Must be me insulting dead pilots n boasting about shooting down am the atlantique...I just return the favour when needed ..

No it was on routine patrol, it's job was to keep PAF aircraft from coming close to border. There is also a
minimum distance from the border that -29 needed to maintain in order to follow (and enforce) rules. F-16s tried
coming close to border...but mig-29 locked them with BVR missiles from long range...off they ran.

No PAF didn't engage because it would have caused a total war.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http://www.grandestrategy.com/2008/12/3948390109291-indian-fighter-planes.html&ei=2njdUuHnDI2h7AbCj4CoBQ&usg=AFQjCNGAlZ6ty-SzmBs5QwUJ80oSQZEoTQ

IAF jets had clearly "violated Pakistani airspace", PAF jets scrambled like shit to intercept them.

Wonderbar a forum !!

Su30 flew 3 miles .. Got locked on and ran with its tails tucked innnnnn.....Later India claims technical error..

In Kargil, we locked your birds before they even came near our airspace.

And we shot them down..

The last time you fired an AMRAAM, it went up the *** of your own aircraft

(research F-16 fratricide in PAF, I'm not sure if it was AMRAAM or not though)

Ask u soviet friends .. Even their former Vice President was gifted a side winder.. 1 case of fracticide due to error...

Few days back indian airforce dropped bombs on its own airbase.. .. Planet drones .. Birds as enemy jets.. <--recent examples...And a bad combat record seals the deal..

When was the last time PAF aircraft had violated Indian airspace? And how deep did they come?

Google it baby.

In 1997, our MiG-25s went so deep they even crossed your capital city...PAF couldn't do shit about it.

Source brat ratshit forum..

PAF just bombed the shit out of your airbases .. 1 jet making several sonic booms during war time..

1 B52 making you shit bricks...Nough said..

Unfortunately your posts no longer speak any facts in context, hence they don't have that STING no more.

Lmao truth hurts...

In war time, you HAVE to violate enemy airspace to complete your objectives. In peacetime, you
violate airspace either as show of strength, to intimidate opponent, or gather intel. PAF not capable
of such.

Yet iaf fails on every account.. Nor could protect itself in its own airspace in war.. And getting locked on during peacetime and making excuses like technical error..

Ironic..

Ahem...which nation had a half of it removed in war? Which nation thew up 93,000 soldiers at enemy's
mercy? Dude don't even talk of war history, it doesn't suit a failed military like you.

A nation always occupied by men .. Taking advantage of a proxy civil war happening thousands of miles with its landmass in between .. And a vast superiority in numbers n tech .. Bragging about its flawed sense of victory ?? After a housand years of occupation ... Against 30k + soldiers,govt officials etc bragging ... I'm amused..

Lmao..

P.S nice way to divert the topic after getting owned.