Palestinians give Egypt mediators Gaza truce demands

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Hazzy997
why would you think that we can tell the isrealis what to do we cant negotiations will be effected by how things go in ground operations and maybe the US from what i see the Egyptian role is to end the war as soon as possible and if you look at things you shall see Egypt have a lot of problems economy and extremists insurgents in sainai and libya

 

[Falcon29]

Hazzy997
why would you think that we can tell the isrealis what to do we cant negotiations will be effected by how things go in ground operations and maybe the US from what i see the Egyptian role is to end the war as soon as possible and if you look at things you shall see Egypt have a lot of problems economy and extremists insurgents in sainai and libya

Anonymous Egyptian:

We have lived with the nightmare of the massacres every day and every night for the past 6 months. The Muslim Brotherhood have nothing to do with Afghanistan or Obama or terrorism. The Muslim Brotherhood are the middle class professionals of Egypt, the doctors, the engineers, the teachers, the scientists, the farmers, the lawyers. They want democracy, have always dreamed of democracy, they dream of an Islamic constitution where equal rights and dignity and justice reside. They dream of a freedom of voice and a freedom of choice. They dream of going to pray in the mosque at dawn and not getting arrested. Of a life of equality.
Islam our religion provides all that. For sixty odd years the country has been through socialism-capitalism and now frank bankruptcy all under the umbrella of a secularity that will 'save the day' secularity may work in the West, but it creates corruption in the Middle East.
You wonder when this will end? Not until the army have murdered all 90 million Egyptians. They've killed so far 7000 all of them pro-democracy.
The fight has never been about Morsy, its all about the ability of a people to choose a president and not have the military interfere.
How can we ever trust the army? How do we know that the next president will remain? unless he has blessings from the army.
Backwards? No, we're not backwards. Terrorists? God help me, no, we aren't terrorists, a real terrorist is the police and army thugs who write on their facebook accounts of what fun it is to kill islamists and how many they killed and burned in Rabaa and Nahda.
I don't know what Mubarak did for 30 years to the Egyptian army, but it no longer holds allegiance to Egypt. A general cameout on TV and said, the enemy of the army changes according to changing conditions! What condition changes to change the enemy of the state?

How will it all end? The way Morsi and the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood didn't want it to end. They wanted to finish creating the country institutions before the military struck them, but perhaps all revolutions must go the same way, we have to enter hell drop down to the deepest gallow to rise again.
We're falling now, with the country announcing bankrupticy any day, with the gulf countries hesitant to continue to support the coup, with more and more people realising the truth behind the relationship between the thugs and the police and that the Muslim Brotherhood have never killed anyone, with more and more people taking to the streets, with the kids at college learning absolutely nothing in class but how to stop a gas canister from exploding and how to throw it right back at the police and military. of how to stop the bleeding from bird shot wounds and live bullets, of doctors learning of exploding bullets and how forensic classes failed to teach them the dirty weapons of war. Of the military using the money that Morsi had assigned for Sinai to be renovated and for hospitals to be built, that money has been long spent on bullets to kill the Sinai people because all of Egypt are terrorists and only the elite upper classes are the non terrorists. Why is it that terrorists carry balloons and carry rulers to school with the Rabaa sign on them and are beaten( oh yes, teachers beat up kids at our schools) and then sent to the police to continue the beatings, of how to live with 30 people inside an Egyptian jail and how to get rid of the cockroaches and other insects inside the jail cell.

What fun times we Egyptians are having, but where will it all end? With democracy.
I know it and believe it because 7000 people do not die for nothing.

 

[Falcon29]

Unless Hamas or Israel have made further demands as a result of the broken ceasefire and dead it does not matter to the mediator what happened or what the narrative is. The mediator is there to ensure there is a ceasefire, full stop.

To ensure an agreed upon truce, whether through putting conditions on the table or allowing some negotiations to reach that end result.

That simply isn't true, if Islamic Jihad was aware of it then Hamas was definitely aware. This point just illustrates my point, if you or Hamas believe Egypt to be at the side of Israel in this conflict then it will not accept Egypt as a mediator nor will it trust it, that so far hasn't happened as Hamas still sends delegations to Cairo and is willing for Egypt to be a mediator.

Islamic Jihad was not aware of anything, where do you even get such a thing? Everyone believes the current military upper class regime in Egypt is with Israel due to their rhetoric and misinformation campaign for the last year or so.

OK.

So? Egypt's military regime is not as 'grateful' as you've made it out to be. It doesn't want a solution.

It's true Egypt did not want the involvement of Qatar and Turkey due to the recent history between the two nations. Those talks failed as was expected, Qatar and Turkey were not viewed by as Israel as neutral mediators and IJ/Pali delegation was looking for a better deal according to France 24. Israel also thought the proposal included too many of Hamas' demands.

Israel/US/Egypt/Tony Blair aren't neutral either, are they. The latest proposal has four demands. The whole world believes those are legitimate demands. Besides Israel and you.

Your point does not include how the US can flip things around. It for the past decade has failed to stop Israel form building settlements, getting seriously involved in the peace process, and conducting operations in Gaza, how will it successfully
pressure Israel in to a ceasefire when it has been unable to pressure Israel into doing anything whatsoever before?

Because it doesn't really care about pressuring Israel right now. Stop acting like I have to baby feed you everything. You are familiar with politics, it's the professional thing to do to appear as a fair broker. In reality, there are other things that matter.

I read it, I just don't understand how you think simply telling the US to pet pressure on Israel in much the same way it is doing now is going to change anything, it historically has not and it doesn't seem likely. Israel knows relations would be normal with surrounding states if it commits to the peace process which results in an eventual Pali state, so far it has not committed itself
to that, which means either of two things, it does not see any benefits in normalising relations with the Arab states or they prefer the status quo.

Well then you don't understand the Middle East as it is today. They can't afford to lose another ally, especially in Egypt. Israel would be forced into two options. It would prefer slightly appeasing its allies. Or we could see a new movement in the region.

Really? so politicians do not want to retain their seats in parliament and parties do not want to maintain their power. If this war was unpopular Israeli politicians would have been calling for its end, because their constituents who ultimately dictate whether they stay in power or in government would demand it of them, no Israeli politician would ignore that nor would any politician in the world risk losing his seat. Whether you like it or not it is the Israeli citizens that can pressure their government the most, Israeli politicians will not risk their positions because the yanks told them to do something (as has been clear over the past decade).

The vast majority of Israeli people are fed daily propaganda that has polluted their physique in which if Israel doesn't occupy more Palestinian land they will be slaughtered like cows. My point had nothing to do with the Israeli public. In 2012 Israel didn't go as far its public wanted it to. You will probably attribute that to other reasons. Most people will agree that it was due to local Arab pressure.

Never claimed they did. Would you admit that your beliefs and opinions do not represent the majority of the Arab world as well?

You first need to define my beliefs. Opinions are irrelevant here. If I was an atheist and made it appear as if the Arab world shares my views I would be wrong. Being an atheist wouldn't make any less supportive of Palestine. You might link your atheism with more 'objective' views as you perceive them but they aren't so.

I have never made fun of your religious beliefs yet you see it fit to make fun of mine (quite badly) for no apparent reason. You seem to be confused here, I am not talking about any majority opinions or any opinions for that matter, I am simply stating how nations (states) have to conduct themselves in order to become effective mediators.

I don't care about your beliefs. I'm telling it's difficult for you to have your beliefs influence the reality in the Middle East. Mine beliefs do influence my views because they can. You are looking at perspectives from Western political science. Do less of that.

 

[Frogman]

To ensure an agreed upon truce, whether through putting conditions on the table or allowing some negotiations to reach that end result.

If it is in a position which it can set demands to come to a truce. It can not when neither side is on the same page, with one calling for disarmament and the other calling for the lifting of a siege. Mediating between both sides until compromises are
made by both sides is all Egypt can actually do.

Islamic Jihad was not aware of anything, where do you even get such a thing? Everyone believes the current military upper class regime in Egypt is with Israel due to their rhetoric and misinformation campaign for the last year or so.

(links will be provided upon editing due to 2 link policy)

Your favourite news outlet says otherwise.

Egypt 'intentionally' ignored Hamas on Gaza ceasefire | Maan News Agency

Even though the article says Egypt only talked with IJ that just isn't true.

Avigdor Lieberman said the reports were "as of now incorrect", and Hamas, which controls Gaza, said talks in Egypt were ongoing.-BBC 17/07/2014

BBC News - Israel-Gaza ceasefire deal denied


Hamas, which dominates Gaza, formally confirmed on Wednesday that it had rejected the initiative.-BBC Wednesday 16/07/2014

BBC News - Gaza deaths pass 200 as Israel and Hamas trade fire

Hamas, which controls Gaza, is still discussing the plan, but its armed wing has rejected it as a "surrender".

Under the terms, the ceasefire should begin immediately, followed by a series of meetings in Cairo with high-level delegations from both sides.

For now, Hamas sources are saying its attacks will "increase in ferocity and intensity" unless Israel releases prisoners and co-operates with Egypt to lift economic restrictions on Gaza. -BBC Tuesday 15/07/2014

BBC News - Israel accepts Egypt proposal to end Gaza conflict

The excuse that Egypt did not consult or tell Hamas and is bogus when the BBC clearly states that on Tuesday the 15th of July Hamas' political wing was still discussing it but its armed wing had rejected it (not a cohesive movement are we?).

Khaled al-Batch, a senior leader of the Islamic Jihad armed group, said that the group welcomed "Egypt's role and efforts to end the Israeli aggression and defend the Palestinian people" but will not accept the ceasefire without conditions.- Aljazeera

Hamas rejects Egypt ceasefire plan for Gaza - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

Would you critcise Islamic Jihad's view of Egypt. Are they not an integral part of the resistance? Why would IJ say things such as this if Egypt was on the side of the Israelis?

So? Egypt's military regime is not as 'grateful' as you've made it out to be. It doesn't want a solution.

Everyone want's a solution. A solution will not happen if one side wants disarmament and the other wants a siege lifted. So in reality there was nothing to amend and if there was any amendments would have been meaningless.

Israel/US/Egypt/Tony Blair aren't neutral either, are they. The latest proposal has four demands. The whole world believes those are legitimate demands. Besides Israel and you.

I have reiterated many times that the Gazan demands are justified (pay attention), what I'm arguing is that they are not realistic given the Israelis want to completely disarm Gaza while maintaining the siege (or installing the PA and lifting the siege).

The Israeli demands are also not realistic as Hamas wants to continue its rule over the Gaza strip and keep its arms and lift the siege.

If Egypt was not neutral it wouldn't be the go to mediator. No one has argued Israel is neutral (?) or that the US or Tony Blair are, and guess what they aren't mediating and any attempt the US made at mediating historically has failed.

Well then you don't understand the Middle East as it is today. They can't afford to lose another ally, especially in Egypt. Israel would be forced into two options. It would prefer slightly appeasing its allies. Or we could see a new movement in the region.

The only two Arab nations that have relations with Israel have them as a result of peace treaties, the only way diplomatic relations with these nations would be lost is if Israel breaches those treaties. It's aggression on Gaza does not endanger
those peace treaties.

The vast majority of Israeli people are fed daily propaganda that has polluted their physique in which if Israel doesn't occupy more Palestinian land they will be slaughtered like cows. My point had nothing to do with the Israeli public. In 2012 Israel didn't go as far its public wanted it to. You will probably attribute that to other reasons. Most people will agree that it was due to local Arab pressure.

What point? you did not make one, all you wrote was "no".

Whether they are being fed with propaganda or not is irrelevant (the same happens in Gaza). If there is significant Israeli public pressure against war and towards peace it will happen.

You first need to define my beliefs. Opinions are irrelevant here. If I was an atheist and made it appear as if the Arab world shares my views I would be wrong. Being an atheist wouldn't make any less supportive of Palestine. You might link your atheism with more 'objective' views as you perceive them but they aren't so.

Your beliefs are well known, you want the overthrow of all Arab state regimes, to be replaced with conservative Islamist regimes by either using force or through a democratic process (although those regimes and you are by no means democrats).

You believe that these regimes will usher in a new independent Muslim era and a united Arab world, a world which has pushed out 'bad' Muslims, liberals, secular people, or anyone else who differs from you either politically or religiously. Your beliefs are
not shared by the majority of Arab of Muslim people.

I do not make it appear like the Arab world shares my views, I have never written or said that the Arab world shares my views nor will they share my views unless there's an extremely drastic change in Arab society. I do not link my Atheism with anything, that's the whole point, you need not be religious or irreligious to be objective.

I don't care about your beliefs. I'm telling it's difficult for you to have your beliefs influence the reality in the Middle East. Mine beliefs do influence my views because they can. You are looking at perspectives from Western political science. Do less of that.

You obviously do care about my beliefs, if you did not you wouldn't have brought it up for no reason whatsoever when you're grasping at straws, what my personal beliefs are completely irrelevant in this argument, as are yours.

We have lived with the nightmare of the massacres every day and every night for the past 6 months. The Muslim Brotherhood have nothing to do with Afghanistan or Obama or terrorism. The Muslim Brotherhood are the middle class professionals of Egypt, the doctors, the engineers, the teachers, the scientists, the farmers, the lawyers. They want democracy, have always dreamed of democracy, they dream of an Islamic constitution where equal rights and dignity and justice reside. They dream of a freedom of voice and a freedom of choice. They dream of going to pray in the mosque at dawn and not getting arrested. Of a life of equality.
Islam our religion provides all that. For sixty odd years the country has been through socialism-capitalism and now frank bankruptcy all under the umbrella of a secularity that will 'save the day' secularity may work in the West, but it creates corruption in the Middle East.
You wonder when this will end? Not until the army have murdered all 90 million Egyptians. They've killed so far 7000 all of them pro-democracy.
The fight has never been about Morsy, its all about the ability of a people to choose a president and not have the military interfere.
How can we ever trust the army? How do we know that the next president will remain? unless he has blessings from the army.
Backwards? No, we're not backwards. Terrorists? God help me, no, we aren't terrorists, a real terrorist is the police and army thugs who write on their facebook accounts of what fun it is to kill islamists and how many they killed and burned in Rabaa and Nahda.
I don't know what Mubarak did for 30 years to the Egyptian army, but it no longer holds allegiance to Egypt. A general cameout on TV and said, the enemy of the army changes according to changing conditions! What condition changes to change the enemy of the state?

How will it all end? The way Morsi and the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood didn't want it to end. They wanted to finish creating the country institutions before the military struck them, but perhaps all revolutions must go the same way, we have to enter hell drop down to the deepest gallow to rise again.
We're falling now, with the country announcing bankrupticy any day, with the gulf countries hesitant to continue to support the coup, with more and more people realising the truth behind the relationship between the thugs and the police and that the Muslim Brotherhood have never killed anyone, with more and more people taking to the streets, with the kids at college learning absolutely nothing in class but how to stop a gas canister from exploding and how to throw it right back at the police and military. of how to stop the bleeding from bird shot wounds and live bullets, of doctors learning of exploding bullets and how forensic classes failed to teach them the dirty weapons of war. Of the military using the money that Morsi had assigned for Sinai to be renovated and for hospitals to be built, that money has been long spent on bullets to kill the Sinai people because all of Egypt are terrorists and only the elite upper classes are the non terrorists. Why is it that terrorists carry balloons and carry rulers to school with the Rabaa sign on them and are beaten( oh yes, teachers beat up kids at our schools) and then sent to the police to continue the beatings, of how to live with 30 people inside an Egyptian jail and how to get rid of the cockroaches and other insects inside the jail cell.

What fun times we Egyptians are having, but where will it all end? With democracy.
I know it and believe it because 7000 people do not die for nothing.

If the MB are democrats then I'm the tooth fairy.

 

[Falcon29]

Your favourite news outlet says otherwise.

Egypt 'intentionally' ignored Hamas on Gaza ceasefire | Maan News Agency

Even though the article says Egypt only talked with IJ that just isn't true.

Must not be true because you say so, sure.

Hamas, which dominates Gaza, formally confirmed on Wednesday that it had rejected the initiative.-BBC Wednesday 16/07/2014

No one is arguing over that, we are mentioning that it was no 'initiative' rather a vile attack on Hamas and proposal for surrender.

BBC News - Israel accepts Egypt proposal to end Gaza conflict

The excuse that Egypt did not consult or tell Hamas and is bogus when the BBC clearly states that on Tuesday the 15th of July Hamas' political wing was still discussing it but its armed wing had rejected it (not a cohesive movement are we?).

Khaled al-Batch, a senior leader of the Islamic Jihad armed group, said that the group welcomed "Egypt's role and efforts to end the Israeli aggression and defend the Palestinian people" but will not accept the ceasefire without conditions.- Aljazeera

Hamas rejects Egypt ceasefire plan for Gaza - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

Would you critcise Islamic Jihad's view of Egypt. Are they not an integral part of the resistance? Why would IJ say things such as this if Egypt was on the side of the Israelis?

IJ is saying so to try to sooth relations between Hamas and General Sisi. But, Sisi hates them for no reason. And it has shocked IJ.

I have reiterated many times that the Gazan demands are justified (pay attention), what I'm arguing is that they are not realistic given the Israelis want to completely disarm Gaza while maintaining the siege (or installing the PA and lifting the siege).

Some things have been agreed upon in initial ports. Hamas went back on demands for an airport or release of prisoners. The main issue is the seaport. And a seaport will benefit Egypt as well. It would Egypt wouldn't need to use Rafah as commercial border but only for crossing.

The Israeli demands are also not realistic as Hamas wants to continue its rule over the Gaza strip and keep its arms and lift the siege.

Hamas isn't the obstacle, no armed faction will give power to people who call for disarmament for the sake of Israel. Which is why the Palestinians created a unity government so all factions would have a say on who rules Gaza.

If Egypt was not neutral it wouldn't be the go to mediator. No one has argued Israel is neutral (?) or that the US or Tony Blair are, and guess what they aren't mediating and any attempt the US made at mediating historically has failed.

Bro, just agree with me that the current administration in Egypt isn't neutral. They want to make Hamas suffer as much as they could.

Your beliefs are well known, you want the overthrow of all Arab state regimes, to be replaced with conservative Islamist regimes by either using force or through a democratic process (although those regimes and you are by no means democrats).

My beliefs are much more complicated than that. I support anyone who fits in a certain criteria. Arab regimes unfortunately don't for the most part. If they did people would support them. The reason there is little apparent opposition in the majority of the Arab world is because opposition is persecuted. Just yesterday a popular scholar in Kuwait was stripped of his citizenship because he spoke publicly about Gaza.

Those who support force and the Arab regimes and their supporters. In Egypt over a thousand people were killed in one day in hopes MB would pick up arms. That didn't happen. Force is used by the Arab regimes. The measures they take to prevent any opposition from forming is undemocratic.

You believe that these regimes will usher in a new independent Muslim era and a united Arab world, a world which has pushed out 'bad' Muslims, liberals, secular people, or anyone else who differs from you either politically or religiously. Your beliefs are
not shared by the majority of Arab of Muslim people.

Not true. If it makes you feel better to believe that than do so ya basha.

If the MB are democrats then I'm the tooth fairy.

Your idea of democrats are secular Western liberals. Which has no basis in the Arab world. What matters is democratic elections.

................

@Frogman

You see, you say Egypt is just meditating. And the US said there could be a waterway fro Gaza from Cyprus. And then the building of a seaport. But, Israel and Egypt don't want that. So now Egypt changes the proposal into some shitty 'minor relief' over time truce deal.

Egypt Presents Proposal to End War in Gaza - ABC News

 

[Frogman]

Must not be true because you say so, sure.

I have brought you the article from Ma'an, your single most used source on the main Gaza-Israel conflict thread. If you are unwilling to believe what it has written here then how can the rest of us have any confidence in what was reported by them
and posted by you in that thread is the truth. They knew, and it is not according to me but from them directly in Gaza.

No one is arguing over that, we are mentioning that it was no 'initiative' rather a vile attack on Hamas and proposal for surrender.

No, you are not. Hamas and you have systematically tried to undermine the Egyptian state by saying Hamas was not consulted when the BBC article on the 15th of July clearly states that Hamas' armed wing rejected the ceasefire plan but it was still being discussed by the political wing. Want to call it a surrender do so, want to say you will negotiate first then do so, but don't lie, especially when you end up agreeing to a 72 hour ceasefire then negotiate in Cairo like what was originally proposed at the start.

IJ is saying so to try to sooth relations between Hamas and General Sisi. But, Sisi hates them for no reason. And it has shocked IJ.

Show me one sentence released by IJ which says anything about them being shocked by the Egyptian regime's actions.

Hamas isn't the obstacle, no armed faction will give power to people who call for disarmament for the sake of Israel. Which is why the Palestinians created a unity government so all factions would have a say on who rules Gaza.

Agree with the first sentence, not the second.

Bro, just agree with me that the current administration in Egypt isn't neutral. They want to make Hamas suffer as much as they could.

They may not like Hamas, but that just isn't true if it was these statistics would not exist:-

قال الدكتور / باسم الريماوى مدير عام الإسعاف و الطوارئ بوزارة الصحة الفلسطينية وم سئول غرفة العمليات التى تتعامل مع الأحداث الجارية فى المحافظات الشمالية و الجنوبية أن ما أدخل عن طريق معبر رفح من خلال التنسيق و المتابعة مع الهلال الأحمر المصرى و بتنسيق مباشر من الحكومة المصرية بلغ حتى اللحظة ( 1416 ) طنا من الأدوية و المستلزمات الطبية والمواد الغذائية، إضافة لعدد من مولدات الكهرباء و الخيام.

و أوضح أن القوات المسلحة المصرية وحدها ساهمت بنسبة ( 66 % ) من المساعدات المصرية التى بلغت ( 75 % ) من حجم المساعدات التى دخلت إلى قطاع غزة عبر معبر رفح.

و أوضح الدكتور / باسم الريماوى أن القوات المسلحة المصرية أدخلت حتى اللحظة ( 936 ) طنا من المواد الغذائية و الأدوية و المستلزمات الطبية.

الإسعاف الفلسطينى: القوات المسلحة المصرية أدخلت 936 طن مساعدات لغزة اليوم السابع

My beliefs are much more complicated than that. I support anyone who fits in a certain criteria. Arab regimes unfortunately don't for the most part. If they did people would support them. The reason there is little apparent opposition in the majority of the Arab world is because opposition is persecuted. Just yesterday a popular scholar in Kuwait was stripped of his citizenship because he spoke publicly about Gaza.

There is little apparent opposition because their is little opposition, the requirements of Arabs are the same as that of humanity. Bread, security, education, healthcare, jobs and basic necessities to live comfortably are all afforded to in the more affluent Arab nations, no matter who is in charge people will not massively oppose a regime that affords this.

Those who support force and the Arab regimes and their supporters. In Egypt over a thousand people were killed in one day in hopes MB would pick up arms. That didn't happen. Force is used by the Arab regimes. The measures they take to prevent any opposition from forming is undemocratic.

Spare me the victim talk. The MB were just as easy with using violence against dissent under the SCAF and when they were in power, there are no victims in Egypt other than the innocent people who have been killed.

Not true. If it makes you feel better to believe that than do so ya basha.

So, you would be OK with a Maghrebi Jew leader in Maghrib? or a Copt president in Egypt? if they 'fit' your criteria, somehow I doubt it. You slander different sects, religions, people, and ideas daily, you showcase an enormous amount of bigotry yet you want me to believe you are tolerant of others, it is laughable. In Hazzy world simply being in the minority would effectively see you sidelined and ignored if not persecuted if your views or beliefs are unpopular.

Your idea of democrats are secular Western liberals. Which has no basis in the Arab world. What matters is democratic elections.

Democratic elections themselves have no basis in the Arab world, they are only a recent addition yet somehow that's logical to you. The MB are not democrats nor will they ever be, the implementation of democratic mechanisms only was not one of the calls of the 2011 revolution. If what matters is democratic elections to you then you would have no problem accepting Elsisi since he actually came out on top in the last one, however, I doubt you would do that, and when you try explain why he is illegitimate you would use arguments formed by 'western liberals'.

There is no point replying I have made my points and you yours, either way you're both at the negotiating table in Egypt under a ceasefire, as was proposed at the start.

 

[Falcon29]

I have brought you the article from Ma'an, your single most used source on the main Gaza-Israel conflict thread. If you are unwilling to believe what it has written here then how can the rest of us have any confidence in what was reported by them
and posted by you in that thread is the truth. They knew, and it is not according to me but from them directly in Gaza.

Dude, your article is from March of 2014.

No, you are not. Hamas and you have systematically tried to undermine the Egyptian state by saying Hamas was not consulted when the BBC article on the 15th of July clearly states that Hamas' armed wing rejected the ceasefire plan but it was still being discussed by the political wing. Want to call it a surrender do so, want to say you will negotiate first then do so, but don't lie, especially when you end up agreeing to a 72 hour ceasefire then negotiate in Cairo like what was originally proposed at the start.

Rejected it after hearing about it in the media. No arrangements were made for any delegations to travel and negotiate. They wanted Hamas to accept Israeli conditions and nothing was proposed. Just a halt of fire, which is a trap.

Show me one sentence released by IJ which says anything about them being shocked by the Egyptian regime's actions.

Egypt distances itself from Gaza war - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Al-Monitor learned from well-informed Palestinian and Egyptian sources that on July 4 Egyptian intelligence asked Ramadan Shalah, head of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, to communicate with Hamas to extend the truce that was concluded after the 2012 war. However, he refused to play the role of the mediator between Egypt and Hamas since he is in the same trench with Hamas, a situation that angered Egypt and made it no longer interested in upholding its efforts for the truce.
...........


What more do you need to see? Instead of trying to put off an honest blessed honorable man as a liar you should accept the reality. I am honorable, I don't prefer lying. I prefer truth and justice.

They may not like Hamas, but that just isn't true if it was these statistics would not exist:-

That is due to public pressure and Arab pressure. I wonder how much of the aid came from elsewhere. They have done anything to make Hamas suffer. Allowing aid through during war time doesn't change that. The border was closed for the majority of the year and tunnels were being targeted.

There is little apparent opposition because their is little opposition, the requirements of Arabs are the same as that of humanity. Bread, security, education, healthcare, jobs and basic necessities to live comfortably are all afforded to in the more affluent Arab nations, no matter who is in charge people will not massively oppose a regime that affords this.

There has been solidarity in all Arab nations except those monarchies I mentioned which will strip you of citizenship if you demonstrate. Demonstrations are illegal there.

Spare me the victim talk. The MB were just as easy with using violence against dissent under the SCAF and when they were in power, there are no victims in Egypt other than the innocent people who have been killed.

There's no victim talk, it's funny how you keep bringing up the MB which has nothing to do with my legitimate point.

So, you would be OK with a Maghrebi Jew leader in Maghrib? or a Copt president in Egypt? if they 'fit' your criteria, somehow I doubt it. You slander different sects, religions, people, and ideas daily, you showcase an enormous amount of bigotry yet you want me to believe you are tolerant of others, it is laughable. In Hazzy world simply being in the minority would effectively see you sidelined and ignored if not persecuted if your views or beliefs are unpopular.

Stop asking me meaningless questions, I support any who fits criteria, has nothing to do with their background. I don't want to have to repeat this again.

Are you coptic? Why do you keep trying to make it like coptics are persecuted in Egypt or that Morsi was anti-coptic? Stop fooling people, coptics have more freedom than regular Egyptians and most of them own some of the largest corportations in Egypt. They are part of the elite in Egypt.

I am not against coptics, I don't why you believe so. It's about time you stop being shy and tell me you're coptic. I won't hold it against you and not sure why you believe that.

What bigotry are you speaking of toadman?

 

[Frogman]

Dude, your article is from March of 2014.

My bad, a more up to date article. 15th of July, they knew about it.

Islamic Jihad rejects Egyptian ceasefire initiative

Rejected it after hearing about it in the media. No arrangements were made for any delegations to travel and negotiate. They wanted Hamas to accept Israeli conditions and nothing was proposed. Just a halt of fire, which is a trap.

Hamas, which controls Gaza, is still discussing the plan, but its armed wing has rejected it as a "surrender".- BBC July 15th

When one wing is still discussing it and the other has outright rejected it as a surrender, when they wouldn't even know what the terms were from the media, it means that they knew what it entailed.

As for negotiations:- Under the terms, the ceasefire should begin immediately, followed by a series of meetings in Cairo with high-level delegations from both sides.-BBC July 15th

Ceasefire followed by negotiations in Cairo, exactly what is happening right now.

What more do you need to see? Instead of trying to put off an honest blessed honorable man as a liar you should accept the reality. I am honorable, I don't prefer lying. I prefer truth and justice.

Your article is posted: July 11, 2014

Khaled al-Batch, a senior leader of the Islamic Jihad armed group, said that the group welcomed "Egypt's role and efforts to end the Israeli aggression and defend the Palestinian people" but will not accept the ceasefire without conditions.- Aljazeera 15th of July 2014. So what happened from July 5th to the 15th?

What you have posted does not prove that IJ are shocked or repulsed or anything, they were asked to mediate and they refused, nothing more, nothing less.

That is due to public pressure and Arab pressure. I wonder how much of the aid came from elsewhere. They have done anything to make Hamas suffer. Allowing aid through during war time doesn't change that. The border was closed for the majority of the year and tunnels were being targeted.

Really? why isn't it being publicised then, why do morons still think the border is closed and Egypt isn't letting in aid. I wonder how many lives the Egyptian aid has actually saved. The Egyptian state can do what it wants, it could have sent zero aid and
the comments made about it and its role would have been the same. Never mind.

There has been solidarity in all Arab nations except those monarchies I mentioned which will strip you of citizenship if you demonstrate. Demonstrations are illegal there.

What does this have to do with opposition in different nations against their own regimes? nothing.

There has historically never been any large scale opposition demonstrations in these nations, because there simply aren't any large opposition movements, even if demonstrations were allowed they would not gather significant numbers. Again, these nations provide their citizens with adequate healthcare, education, jobs, and security they will not jeopardize that for anyone.

There's no victim talk, it's funny how you keep bringing up the MB which has nothing to do with my legitimate point

Really, from all the talk of pro-democracy and thousands killed and they weren't given a chance and democratically elected, I would say there is a lot of victim talk. You brought up what happened in Rabaa which the MB had a stake in as well as the military. Your point isn't a good one, the MB did not shy away from using violence against opposition when in power in Egypt and they have no problem using undemocratic and unconstitutional means to thwart their opposition. Again, they are no different than the current regime in that they are not democrats.

Are you coptic? Why do you keep trying to make it like coptics are persecuted in Egypt or that Morsi was anti-coptic? Stop fooling people, coptics have more freedom than regular Egyptians and most of them own some of the largest corportations in Egypt. They are part of the elite in Egypt.

One word: Maspero.

What bigotry are you speaking of toadman?

This is the problem in the region, AQ groups are something the West/Israel are satisfied with as I explained in my previous posts. You sound like a Jew living in Egypt. No wonder you're trying to push that narrative.

I see you have a problem with Jews. You also seem to have a problem with Assyrians. Do I have to traul through the posts in which you blow gaskets calling everyone Muslim haters, Jews, Zionists, prostitutes, whores, or any other derogatory term or label, you are a bigot.

You see, you say Egypt is just meditating. And the US said there could be a waterway fro Gaza from Cyprus. And then the building of a seaport. But, Israel and Egypt don't want that. So now Egypt changes the proposal into some shitty 'minor relief' over time truce deal.

Egypt Presents Proposal to End War in Gaza - ABC News

You're talking about waterways when this is the problem:-

Palestinian officials told The Associated Press early Wednesday morning that Egypt's proposal calls for easing parts of the Israeli blockade of Gaza, bringing some relief to the territory. But it leaves the key areas of disagreement, including the Islamic militant group Hamas' demand for a full lifting of the blockade and Israeli calls for Hamas to disarm, to later negotiations

How in the hell are you going to negotiate a waterway when both sides want completely different things, again, it's not realistic.

 

[Falcon29]

My bad, a more up to date article. 15th of July, they knew about it.

Islamic Jihad rejects Egyptian ceasefire initiative

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...c-jihad-rejects-egyptian-ceasefire-initiative

And they heard about it from the media, for the last time. No one in Gaza was consulted.

What you have posted does not prove that IJ are shocked or repulsed or anything, they were asked to mediate and they refused, nothing more, nothing less.

It shows great disappointment in Egypt's stance which is why they embraced Hamas's stance. You can try looking at it in any other way from your perspective. That's irrelevant.

Really? why isn't it being publicised then, why do morons still think the border is closed and Egypt isn't letting in aid. I wonder how many lives the Egyptian aid has actually saved. The Egyptian state can do what it wants, it could have sent zero aid and
the comments made about it and its role would have been the same. Never mind.

Because it allowed urgent humanitarian aid into Gaza we must believe that they support the Palestinian resistance in Gaza and the cause as a whole? No.

The public was discussing it, just because you don't follow Arab social media and general media doesn't change that. Which is why Saudi Arabia began upping its rhetoric against Israel recently.


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The rest of your post is meaningless, you're repeating the same things I just discussed with you in previous posts. Let's end it here. This discussion is going no where. I have made my points and you have made yours.

 

[Frogman]

And they heard about it from the media, for the last time. No one in Gaza was consulted.

Pay attention to the date. The 15th, the excuse about Egypt not getting in touch was late on the 15th and early 16th, why would you reject the ceasefire, and then later say no one got in touch with you, surely you would say that before rejecting it.

It shows great disappointment in Egypt's stance which is why they embraced Hamas's stance. You can try looking at it in any other way from your perspective. That's irrelevant.

Short lived disappointment I presume since they praised Egypt's efforts on the 15th.

Because it allowed urgent humanitarian aid into Gaza we must believe that they support the Palestinian resistance in Gaza and the cause as a whole? No.

Believe what you want, but a nation with its own problems does not contribute 2/3rds of all material aid to Gaza with minimal publicity if it does not support them in any way.

The public was discussing it, just because you don't follow Arab social media and general media doesn't change that. Which is why Saudi Arabia began upping its rhetoric against Israel recently.

Don't follow?

The public was discussing it, but, there was a great deal of apathy (among even the staunchest of supporters) considering events going on elsewhere in the region, greater cynicism towards Hamas, hostility even from pretty much every Arab nation which we have never seen before, support for Hamas has simply plummeted in the Arab world, however Palestinian resistance is still popular, you are trying to make it seem like the Arab world was awash with outrage, which it wasn't and frankly there are much bigger problems in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere in the region. The Egyptian state could have gotten away with sending minimal to no aid given the current Arab and national opinion but it decided to do the opposite.

The rest of your post is meaningless, you're repeating the same things I just discussed with you in previous posts. Let's end it here. This discussion is going no where. I have made my points and you have made yours.

You're around the table in Egypt, that's what the Egyptian state wanted and that's what it has, whether you like or not.

 

[Falcon29]

Pay attention to the date. The 15th, the excuse about Egypt not getting in touch was late on the 15th and early 16th, why would you reject the ceasefire, and then later say no one got in touch with you, surely you would say that before rejecting it.

I already gave you multiple sources saying the 'cease fire' was heard of in the media. But, Israel was consulted about it prior. Hamas wasn't consulted. That's not 'mediating' or being a 'fair broker'.

Stop repeating pointless sentences. Use sources.

Believe what you want, but a nation with its own problems does not contribute 2/3rds of all material aid to Gaza with minimal publicity if it does not support them in any way.

Again, the aid coming into Gaza is largely paid for by foreign sources/PA. The only two states which can get any aid into Gaza are Egypt and Israel since they control the border crossings. Gaza is under occupation. It has no sovereignty to provide for itself aid. It should not come to a shock that Egypt facilitated crossings aid in to their preference.

The public was discussing it, but, there was a great deal of apathy (among even the staunchest of supporters) considering events going on elsewhere in the region, greater cynicism towards Hamas, hostility even from pretty much every Arab nation which we have never seen before, support for Hamas has simply plummeted in the Arab world

Okay, stop right here. You need to show me something which tells me that 'support for Hamas in the Arab world plummeted'. I'm speaking about Arab public opinion. Not official Saudi media or Egyptian military leadership/media which is doing so because of their anti-'Islamist' policy in the region. Are you seeing polls that I'm not seeing suggesting the public opinion is expressing dislike towards Hamas or the Palestinian Resistance/people?