Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[waz]

Assalamulaykum,

I consider the U-214 to be the PN's best choice for two main reasons:

A) It will diversify our technology in the Submarine industry.

B) The U-214 is "15" years ahead of the Marlin.

Thus, this is not only sufficient evidence that the U-214 should be our choice but also is an invaluable asset to the PN.

Though, may I ask one question. I heard there was a rumor that the export version of the U-214 had a magnetic shell [or in other words making it more vunerable to being detected.]

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Allah Hafiz

Bro the hulls of both are made of austenitic steel which by its nature is Non magnetic. Austenitic structures are usually totally non-magnetic and will only receive a magnetic permeability through a process like Cold working. The 214 had other strengthening materials put in to give a grater diving depth which in itself is an advantage. Hence the belief that it did not have a non magnetic hull so the difference in permeability of the hull over the 212 [in service with the German Navy] is very little.

 

[waz]

So whether it is US or Germany for that matter, why is it that every time pakistan decides to buy something out, these no good lawmakers suddenly standup and start expressing their fear about a possible arms race in S.A. What about the huge amount of military hardware india is buying, that doesnt seem to bother them at all. By the way going the french way would have been better, though it might not be on par with the U-214, still the french also offered an upgradition of the existing agusta class subs of the PN if we opted for the marlin and that too free of cost and besides we have the infrastructure already in place to handle the french technology, also france is a much more reliable supplier then any of the others US and germany. PAF opted for the F-16s because the infrastructure was in place and the new breed of the F-16s could easily be inducted without much of a hussle, i cant see why cant the navy do the same. Anyways lets wait and hope PN gets the best out of her limited sources.

It’s not just us bro. Do you remember the submarine sale to Israel? The German government had repeatedly turned down their request for two new submarines, supposedly because of reports the navy had outfitted their older submarines with Israeli-made, sea-launched cruise missiles.
It took quite a while for the deal to go through as sensitive armament sales need approval from Berlin's Security Council. When the new German government, came in headed by Chancellor Angela Merkel the deal was approved.

The German Green party the guys arguing about the arms race in the article were always opposed to weapons sales and were against the sale of submarines to Israel. The green party one of the coalition partners demanded that additional submarines could only be delivered to Israel on the basis of a binding assurance that they would not be used as nuclear weapons platforms, which include the two they will receive. But then again four of the tubes have a 650 diameter for who knows what......


As for Pakistan we have long history of dealing with the German defense industry regardless of their laws.


In 1992, a top company officer from Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) in a remarkably frank interview, claimed that "we [POF] provide end-use certificates to Germany to cover shipments to Kuwait."(248) One reason for this "service" was perhaps because arms exports to the Middle East were illegal under German law, and frequently aroused controversy. By going through Pakistan - a legal destination - many German companies had found a convenient route to enter the Middle East market. Some of Germany's largest weapon manufacturers have granted production licences to the Pakistan Ordnance Factories over the years, so sales to Pakistan barely raised eyebrows in Bonn. The same company officer said that another variation of the EUC scheme was for German companies to negotiate the contract with a Middle East destination, and then turn it over to POF for the actual deliveries, in essence, "selling" their contract to the Pakistanis.


As for the law itself here you go

German arms exports legislation consists of two laws based on Paragraph 26(230) of the German Constitution ("Grundgesetz") which states that "arms production" and "transfers of weapons designated for warfare" are under the direct and extensive control of the German government. The Kriegswaffenkontrollgesetz (KWKG, War Weapons Control Act), introduced in 1961 covers all major weapon systems and components, from fighter aircraft and warships, to tanks, armoured personnel carriers (APCs), artillery including semi-automatic small arms. To export arms listed in the KWKG, an export licence from the German government is obligatory. The law prohibits any export of the listed weapons, if:

• they might be used in an action disturbing peace,
• obligations under international law would be violated, and
• good and peaceful relations with other countries would be threatened.

Neither of which we fall under. There has been a recent human rights slant added by the Social Democratic and Green parties in 1998 introducing more restrictive arms export legislation incorporating a human rights criterion for export licences. But this is hardly looked at considering arm exports to Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Mexico etc which all fell foul of this ideal.

 

[mujahideen]

Germany may sell subs to Pakistan

BONN (Agencies) - Germany may approve the sale to Pakistan of three naval submarines made by ThyssenKrupp AG’s HDW unit, ignoring the concerns of opposition lawmakers who claim the step might help stoke an arms race in the Indian Ocean, reports Bloomberg.
Chancellor Angela Merkel’s arms export council needs time to decide whether to go ahead with the sale, according to a government statement on the German parliament’s Website.
The decision will take account of unrest in Pakistan as the country prepares for Feb 18 elections, as well as potential human rights abuses and economic interests, the government said.
Navy material ‘generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn’t have a naval component’, the government said.
Though a decision on the sale is still pending, such a step would help secure jobs at Kiel-based HDW ‘for several years’, it said.
The opposition Green Party fears that selling the U214 submarines will help push tension between India and Pakistan to the seas. Powered by silent fuel-cells, the deep-diving U214s are difficult to detect and their acquisition may spur a new arms race by forcing a potential foe to upgrade interception technology, the Greens say.
Merkel’s government has indicated to Pakistan that it will approve the sale and will provide a Hermes export guarantee worth 1.3 billion euros ($1.9 billion) for HDW, the Greens said in a preamble to the government statement. Merkel’s export council, comprising Cabinet ministers, convenes in secret.
The submarine exports would ‘not comply with Germany’s foreign and security policy interests’ and would infringe arms export rules, the lawmakers said. U214s sold by HDW to foreign governments are not equipped to fire missiles, the government said.
The submarine has eight torpedo tubes and is technologically ’15 years’ ahead of the three French-made Agosta-class submarines operated by the Pakistani navy, said the Greens Party.
Germany ‘fundamentally recognises the right of other states to arm their forces with appropriate conventional means, exercising their right of self-defence’, the statement said, adding that in Germany’s view ‘Pakistan’s naval forces see modern submarines as a classic means to build their main deterrence against a blockade or an attack by a stronger opponent’.

The Nation

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

i hope this will really help pakistan in developing its own sub, especially if its nuclear insha'Allah!

 

[HAIDER]

By Brian Parkin

Feb. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Germany may approve the sale to Pakistan of three naval submarines made by ThyssenKrupp AG's HDW unit, ignoring the concerns of opposition lawmakers who claim the step might help stoke an arms race in the Indian Ocean.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's arms export council needs time to decide whether to go ahead with the sale, according to a government statement on the German parliament's Web site. The decision will take account of unrest in Pakistan as the country prepares for Feb. 18 elections, as well as potential human rights abuses and economic interests, the government said.

Navy materiel ``generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn't have a naval component,'' the government said. Though a decision on the sale is still pending, such a step would help secure jobs at Kiel-based HDW ``for several years,'' it said.

The opposition Green Party fears that selling the U214 submarines will help push tension between India and Pakistan to the seas. Powered by silent fuel-cells, the deep-diving U214s are difficult to detect and their acquisition may spur a new arms race by forcing a potential foe to upgrade interception technology, the Greens say.

Merkel's government has indicated to Pakistan that it will approve the sale and will provide a Hermes export guarantee worth 1.3 billion euros ($1.9 billion) for HDW, the Greens said in a preamble to the government statement. Merkel's export council, comprising Cabinet ministers, convenes in secret.

Submarine Exports

The submarine exports would ``not comply with Germany's foreign and security policy interests'' and would infringe arms export rules, the lawmakers said. Pakistan's ``fragile, nuclear- armed regime is located at the center of a violent crisis-hub that stretches from Iran across Afghanistan to China and India.''

U214s sold by HDW to foreign governments are not equipped to fire missiles, the government said. The submarine has eight torpedo tubes and is technologically ``15 years'' ahead of the three French-made Agosta-class submarines operated by the Pakistani navy, said the Greens Party.

Germany ``fundamentally recognizes the right of other states to arm their forces with appropriate conventional means, exercising their right of self-defense,'' the statement said, adding that in Germany's view ``Pakistan's naval forces see modern submarines as a classic means to build their main deterrence against a blockade or an attack by a stronger opponent.''

To contact the reporter on this story: Brian Parkin in Munich at bparkin@bloomberg.net
Bloomberg.com

 

[HAIDER]

Crew 27 (including five officers)

Weapon Systems

Torpedoes six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes
Combat Data Syetem Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)


Countermeasures

ESM EADS FL1800U

Decoys TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system
Radar Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar
Sonar STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar
Periscopes Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack
Propulsion Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW



Length 64m
Height 13m
Surface Displacement 1,700m³
Presure Hull Diameter 6.3m
Buoyancy Reserve >10%


Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance 6kt
Range 12,000nm
Mission Endurance 12 weeks
Constantly Submerged Three weeks without snorkelling
Mission Sprint Speed 15kt to 20kt
Maximum Dive Depth 400m+

 

[MOSABJA]

When will the first submarine be made. 2009 or 2010 or more.???


they will give us a sub that will not be able to fire Se launched Cruise missiles .

but I think we could induct that by working on it

 

[mohammadkhan70]

Due to my lack of knowledge, can anyone pls tell me if Pak can fire Bubur missile from a submarine.

 

[EagleEyes]

Due to my lack of knowledge, can anyone pls tell me if Pak can fire Bubur missile from a submarine.

It should be able to. The tube is big enough for it.

However, no test has occurred so we dont know of it "officially". But the sources say that it is capable of being fired from the subs.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

But the sources say that it is capable of being fired from the subs.

yea, pakistan is able to fire exocet missiles while submerged. Plans were to develop a naval version of babur. so i wouldn't be surprised if they're able to do so in a few months, but i don't think we'd hear about it.

 

[fatman17]

Due to my lack of knowledge, can anyone pls tell me if Pak can fire Bubur missile from a submarine.

its probably in their plans but it will be a while before this capability is harnessed.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

its probably in their plans but it will be a while before this capability is harnessed.

Since Babur is a Nuclear Capable Cruise Missile, i say, we will not be hearing about submarine lauched babur version soon.

Since Pakistan was in the loop when Harpoons where integrated for Agosta 70 class, and Exocets for Agosta 90B class, it should not take long for Submarine version of Babur to be integrated to Agosta 90B.

But we will not hear about it soon!.....

 

[Contrarian]

Webby,
how does having an AIP system make the Agosta's equal or superior to Scorpene's?

Do you know the purpose of AIP? How is it remotely related to combat capacity? Do you know having an AIP system like MESMA has advantages as well as disadvantages?

If you really need an AIP, then the fuel cell technology used in U-214 is better than the MESMA AIP.

And FYI, India did NOT feel the need for AIP systems, all they do is increase the endurance of the submarine, and on the other hand they increase the noise the sub makes. Please dont put forward such stupid things as Agosta has MESMA AIP and is therefore equal or better.

Enough with the mentality that whatever you buy has to be equal or better than what India gets. There is a reason India got the Scorpene, that reason is a clear technical advantage. There is a reason why Pakistan is NOT going with the Marlin, and that is because its a mere upgrade of the Scorpene, and offers nothing new. The U-214 OTOH uses different technology and is thus a much better buy for Pakistan.

And Scorpene CAN be fitted with MESMA AIP as well, but like i said IN did not feel the need for it. Its no big deal.

 

[Quwa]

Put an end to it and put up the physical specifications of both submarines. Naval-Technology.
=============================
Agosta-90B

Crew 36 + 5

Dimensions
Length 67.6m
Draught 5.4m
Surface Displacement 1,510t
Submerged Displacement 1,760t

Performance
Maximum Speed Over 17kt
Range 10,000nm
Autonomy 68 days
=============================
Scorpene

Crew 32

Dimensions
Overall Length 63.5m
Draught 5.4m
Submerged Displacement 1,590t
Surface Displacement 1,450t

Performance
Maximum Operating Depth 350m
Submerged Speed Over 20 kt
Range (at 8kt) 6,400nm
Endurance 50 days

Granted Scorpene probably has better internal sub-systems and stealthier hull than Agosta-90B

 

[EagleEyes]

Webby,
how does having an AIP system make the Agosta's equal or superior to Scorpene's?

Do you know the purpose of AIP? How is it remotely related to combat capacity? Do you know having an AIP system like MESMA has advantages as well as disadvantages?

If you really need an AIP, then the fuel cell technology used in U-214 is better than the MESMA AIP.

And FYI, India did NOT feel the need for AIP systems, all they do is increase the endurance of the submarine, and on the other hand they increase the noise the sub makes. Please dont put forward such stupid things as Agosta has MESMA AIP and is therefore equal or better.

Enough with the mentality that whatever you buy has to be equal or better than what India gets. There is a reason India got the Scorpene, that reason is a clear technical advantage. There is a reason why Pakistan is NOT going with the Marlin, and that is because its a mere upgrade of the Scorpene, and offers nothing new. The U-214 OTOH uses different technology and is thus a much better buy for Pakistan.

And Scorpene CAN be fitted with MESMA AIP as well, but like i said IN did not feel the need for it. Its no big deal.

Scorpene has no advantage. Scorpene was competition class of submarine with Agosta. Different types.. same extent. Pakistan clearly picked the Agosta. Whatever India buy DOESNT have to be superior to what Pakistan buys. It depends on the tech, timeframe, cost, and the supplier. U-214 is clearly a next generation submarine "15 years ahead of Scorpene". Scorpene doesn't even have a AIP system let alone the fuel-cell technology!