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Pakistan's stalled China-backed rail project prompts turn to Japan

Just to add to my previous post, the Japanese are the ones who had completed the feasibility of KCR revival project and even if the project was to be transferred to the Chinese, a consent from the Japanese company was required to use the same feasibility report or else conduct a new feasibility which require more funds and lot of time.
 
really enjoyed those pics
You know all over UK you see grand works. Marvels of engineering. Canals with flowing water cut through mountains, then flowing in canals hanging on top of stone built viaducts connecting every corner of the country built over 150 years ago. Then rail lines similarly constructed. Most of UK cities were built in 1800s including their housing, roads, sewers. All built with shovel, a navvy and lots of alcohol and a good foreman. That is how empire was built. So it amazes me why we can;t do that in Pakistan in 2018 given that we may not have technology but we do have huge population.

About Karachi KCR you need to ask somebody is more versed with that city. I don't know enough. My dad lived in Karachi in late 1950s at place called Jacob Lines but it was a small city then and still had strong British impress.
 
You know all over UK you see grand works. Marvels of engineering. Canals with flowing water cut through mountains, then flowing in canals hanging on top of stone built viaducts connecting every corner of the country. Then rail lines similarly constructed. Most of UK cities were built in 1800s including their housing, roads, sewers. All built with shovel, a navvy and lots of alcohol and a good foreman. That is how empire was built. So it amazes me why we can;t do that in Pakistan in 2018 given that we may not have technology but we do have huge population.

About Karachi KCR you need to ask somebody is more versed with that city. I don't know enough. My dad lived in Karachi in late 1950s at place called Jacob Lines but it was a small city then and still had strong British impress.

Honestly its that stuff in UK that most impresses me....more than almost anything else (though I do have fondness for the historical stuff in London like parliament complex, st pauls etc).

The legacy engineering stuff still going strong, lot of what Brunel did for example....bridges (of all sizes be it that arched railway one on GWR i forgot the name of, or clifton suspension one), canals, roads. Even the cantilever bridge (forth?) just outside Edinburgh has its elegance in metal design you just dont see anymore these days (after suspension concept really took off).
 
A blast from the past..

11201612100001.JPG
 
Arrest every mullah. Shut every madaris. Then press gang 100,000 of them with showels in hand while reciting the Quran to start digging. In less then one year you will have your subway in Karachi and 100,000 fit Hifiz-e-Qurans. That not a good idea?

Like this. Marching to work with showels. Dig. Dig, Dig.


RAD-wehrmacht-german-army-rare-pictures-ww2-second-world-war-005.jpg
Bruh there is a giant drill that both digs and clears the concrete casing. Its not that difficult nowadays.


@Indus Pakistan , really enjoyed those pics....the open pit method was actually used for the kolkata metro system iirc (since india didnt have the funds or knowhow back then for TBM).

But I am wondering is it relevant to KCR here? As far as I know isnt KCR a surface commuter rail kind of system when in operation? So wouldn't this project mainly be re-establishing the existing surface infra (likely encroached on...or have parts also been officially sold?), upgrading it etc?...or is there actual downtown underground stuff involved too?
That's the whole problem PPP is using "encroachment" as an excuse to slow the whole project down and at points completely stop it. So thus members here recommending a subway system.

Tokyo has a population of about 13 million and Karachi has a population of about 15 million and Karachi has no damn mass transit system. Let alone the KCR. Where as Tokyo has 13 subway lines, multiple bus line and surface rail lines. All connected to the high speed lines that connect the whole country. Subways in Karachi shouldve been developed in the 80s but our corrupt politicians were too busy hauling tax money to Switzerland and UAE.
 
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/B...ina-backed-rail-project-prompts-turn-to-Japan

Pakistan's stalled China-backed rail project prompts turn to Japan
Regional leaders show 'buyer's remorse' over cost of Belt and Road loans

ADNAN AAMIR, Contributing writerOCTOBER 19, 2019 17:14 JST

KARACHI -- A regional government in Pakistan says it is open to funding from Japan for an urban railway after funding for the project under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, or CPEC, hit a snag.

On Tuesday, Skindar Sultan Raja, head of Pakistan's state-owned railway operator, told the Senate Standing Committee on Railways that the regional government of Sindh is willing to take a loan of $2.6 billion from the Japan International Cooperation Agency, JICA, to refurbish the Karachi Circular Railway, or KCR.

Frustrated by a lack of support from China for the project, Sindh officials are looking to Japan. If the JICA loan comes through, it would be the first case where a Japanese entity takes over the funding of a China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project. This could strengthen the impression that CPEC is being scaled back. Experts believe it is beginning to dawn on Pakistani leaders that the much ballyhooed corridor may bring fewer benefits than expected.


"The Sindh government's shift from China to a loan deal from Japan for the KCR project shows that Pakistan is suffering from buyer's remorse," said Mohan Malik, a professor at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies in Hawaii. The economic burden of Chinese infrastructure projects, coupled with the potential loss of sovereign control, has clearly dampened enthusiasm for the for the corridor in Pakistan, Malik said.

The Karachi Circular Railway served commuters in Pakistan's largest metropolitan area from 1969 to 1999. In 2010, JICA began a three-year survey to assess the feasibility of reopening the loop line. The Japanese aid agency had offered a 40-year loan at a 0.2% interest rate to fund the project, but it was stymied by administrative delays.

Then, in December 2016, the Karachi Circular Railway was incorporated into the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor by the Joint Cooperation Committee, co-chaired by Pakistan and China. The Orange Metro Train Lahore project was also included.

But the Karachi railway project stalled at the next step, where the Sindh government and the Chinese companies involved in the project were supposed to sign off on specific terms. This means the railway is not yet officially executed as part of the key railway project in the Pakistani portion of the Belt and Road Initiative. The Belt and Road is Beijing's vast building program that aims to connect China to Central Asia and Europe.

The 43 km Karachi railway is expected to carry 700,000 passengers a day when operational. Given its importance to the city, the chief minister of Sindh, Murad Ali Shah, repeatedly asked for the project to be funded under the China Pakistan Economic Corridor.

Because the Sindh government does not have the money to begin the project on its own, it has been looking for outside funding, and CPEC was seen as the best available choice. From 2015 to 2018, the corridor important to regional governments as source of easy funding for large projects. Now that the central government's enthusiasm for the corridor appears to be cooled, regional governments are also looking for other external donors.

In September, Shah asked the Chinese consul general in Karachi, Wang Yu, to expedite funding for the railway as part of the corridor, and sought Yu's help in persuading Beijing to help make the Karachi loop line a reality.

But they made little headway, so Sindh officials turned again to JICA for funding. Experts believe the main reason they are looking to Japan is the low cost of its loans. While it is unclear how much Chinese loans under the corridor will cost, Pakistan Railways' Raja confirmed to the Senate committee that JICA's loan terms are more favorable than China's.

The Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies' Malik said that JICA infrastructure loans usually come at a much lower interest rate than those from China. They "also generate local employment opportunities and do not require sovereign guarantees or collateral," Malik said.

Others are more broadly skeptical of government-to-government loans. Hasaan Khawar, an Islamabad-based public policy analyst, believes that obtaining loans on the open market will always result in more generous terms than bilateral loans. "In international competitive bidding, there are higher chances of getting more competitive [loans], as compared to bilateral arrangements."

The Sindh government wants to engage JICA on the project, but a deal has not been reached yet. JICA has not made any decision or official commitment on Karachi Circular Railway, Masanosuke Sakaki, a JICA official told the Nikkei Asian Review. "The Government of Japan, including the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Finance, has the full authority to make such decisions," Sakaki said.

Khawar says, meanwhile, that there have not been any significant developments regarding the corridor lately. "[It] definitely doesn't seem to be that high on the priority for this government, despite the fact that there has been the talk of creating a CPEC authority and Phase-II of CPEC, covering socio-economic cooperation."

@Pakistan Space Agency @Alternatiiv @Game.Invade @Chak Bamu @The Accountant @ps3linux

The project was under negotiation with japan since ages. Initially it was not part of cpec however Sindh government was trying to make it part of cpec which got traction for sometime. Apparently they failed.

However in principal this is a local community project therefore should it be part of cepc or not is debateable.
 
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/B...ina-backed-rail-project-prompts-turn-to-Japan

Pakistan's stalled China-backed rail project prompts turn to Japan
Regional leaders show 'buyer's remorse' over cost of Belt and Road loans

ADNAN AAMIR, Contributing writerOCTOBER 19, 2019 17:14 JST

KARACHI -- A regional government in Pakistan says it is open to funding from Japan for an urban railway after funding for the project under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, or CPEC, hit a snag.

On Tuesday, Skindar Sultan Raja, head of Pakistan's state-owned railway operator, told the Senate Standing Committee on Railways that the regional government of Sindh is willing to take a loan of $2.6 billion from the Japan International Cooperation Agency, JICA, to refurbish the Karachi Circular Railway, or KCR.

Frustrated by a lack of support from China for the project, Sindh officials are looking to Japan. If the JICA loan comes through, it would be the first case where a Japanese entity takes over the funding of a China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project. This could strengthen the impression that CPEC is being scaled back. Experts believe it is beginning to dawn on Pakistani leaders that the much ballyhooed corridor may bring fewer benefits than expected.


"The Sindh government's shift from China to a loan deal from Japan for the KCR project shows that Pakistan is suffering from buyer's remorse," said Mohan Malik, a professor at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies in Hawaii. The economic burden of Chinese infrastructure projects, coupled with the potential loss of sovereign control, has clearly dampened enthusiasm for the for the corridor in Pakistan, Malik said.

The Karachi Circular Railway served commuters in Pakistan's largest metropolitan area from 1969 to 1999. In 2010, JICA began a three-year survey to assess the feasibility of reopening the loop line. The Japanese aid agency had offered a 40-year loan at a 0.2% interest rate to fund the project, but it was stymied by administrative delays.

Then, in December 2016, the Karachi Circular Railway was incorporated into the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor by the Joint Cooperation Committee, co-chaired by Pakistan and China. The Orange Metro Train Lahore project was also included.

But the Karachi railway project stalled at the next step, where the Sindh government and the Chinese companies involved in the project were supposed to sign off on specific terms. This means the railway is not yet officially executed as part of the key railway project in the Pakistani portion of the Belt and Road Initiative. The Belt and Road is Beijing's vast building program that aims to connect China to Central Asia and Europe.

The 43 km Karachi railway is expected to carry 700,000 passengers a day when operational. Given its importance to the city, the chief minister of Sindh, Murad Ali Shah, repeatedly asked for the project to be funded under the China Pakistan Economic Corridor.

Because the Sindh government does not have the money to begin the project on its own, it has been looking for outside funding, and CPEC was seen as the best available choice. From 2015 to 2018, the corridor important to regional governments as source of easy funding for large projects. Now that the central government's enthusiasm for the corridor appears to be cooled, regional governments are also looking for other external donors.

In September, Shah asked the Chinese consul general in Karachi, Wang Yu, to expedite funding for the railway as part of the corridor, and sought Yu's help in persuading Beijing to help make the Karachi loop line a reality.

But they made little headway, so Sindh officials turned again to JICA for funding. Experts believe the main reason they are looking to Japan is the low cost of its loans. While it is unclear how much Chinese loans under the corridor will cost, Pakistan Railways' Raja confirmed to the Senate committee that JICA's loan terms are more favorable than China's.

The Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies' Malik said that JICA infrastructure loans usually come at a much lower interest rate than those from China. They "also generate local employment opportunities and do not require sovereign guarantees or collateral," Malik said.

Others are more broadly skeptical of government-to-government loans. Hasaan Khawar, an Islamabad-based public policy analyst, believes that obtaining loans on the open market will always result in more generous terms than bilateral loans. "In international competitive bidding, there are higher chances of getting more competitive [loans], as compared to bilateral arrangements."

The Sindh government wants to engage JICA on the project, but a deal has not been reached yet. JICA has not made any decision or official commitment on Karachi Circular Railway, Masanosuke Sakaki, a JICA official told the Nikkei Asian Review. "The Government of Japan, including the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Finance, has the full authority to make such decisions," Sakaki said.

Khawar says, meanwhile, that there have not been any significant developments regarding the corridor lately. "[It] definitely doesn't seem to be that high on the priority for this government, despite the fact that there has been the talk of creating a CPEC authority and Phase-II of CPEC, covering socio-economic cooperation."

@Pakistan Space Agency @Alternatiiv @Game.Invade @Chak Bamu @The Accountant @ps3linux

Yaar an off topic comment is that for the last two decades or so there is so much of "stupid mushroom" media growth and so much of idiocy being reported that it is an exercise to filter out the facts from all media junk.

Facts
KCR initial feasibility was conducted by a Japanese firm.
KCR is a provincial project (after 18th amendment it is totally provincial jurisdiction)
Sindh Govt has been trying for years to get it included in CPEC but has failed.
Problem with provincial Govt is that they want the project for political gains, to get a foothold in Karachi again where they have been practically wiped out, they want center to bear the cost but unwilling to clear the path from land grabbers, provincial departments to cooperate with the the center. Did i mention center to pay the interests as well.
The operating authority to remain with province, means in financial term all assets to be with the provincial Govt while all liabilities to be borne by the center and thousands of political appointees to screw the project to be sole jurisdiction of province.
and of course all kick back to be paid to their offshore companies.

Sindh provincial Govt is the one exceptional case which has no international/national credibility of transparency and merit, frankly if I were a Chinese conglomerate this would be the last project on earth I would want to do.

If Japanese take a shine to this project I am absolutely sure it will be on (BOT) basis with sovereign guarantees, BOT will be easy but there is no way they will get sovereign guarantees.
 
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Yaar an off topic comments is that for the last two decades or so there is so much of "stupid mushroom" media growth and so much of idiocy being reported that it is an exercise to filter out the facts from all media junk.

Facts
KCR initial feasibility was conducted by a Japanese firm.
KCR is a provincial project (after 18th amendment it is totally provincial jurisdiction)
Sindh Govt has been trying for years to get it included in CPEC but has failed.
Problem with provincial Govt is that they want the project for political gains, to get a foothold in Karachi again where they have been practically wiped out, they want center to bear the cost but unwilling to clear the path from land grabbers, provincial departments to cooperate with the the center. Did i mention center to pay the interests as well.
The operating authority to remain with province, means in financial term all assets to be with the provincial Govt while all liabilities to be borne by the center and thousands of political appointees to screw the project to be sole jurisdiction of province.
and of course all kick back to be paid to their offshore companies.

Sindh provincial Govt is the one exceptional case which has no international/national credibility of transparency and merit, frankly if I were a Chinese conglomerate this would be the last project on earth I would want to do.

If Japanese take a shine to this project I am absolutely sure it will be on (BOT) basis with sovereign guarantees, BOT will be easy but there is no way they will get sovereign guarantees.

Thanks for this detailed post....it helps answer lot of nitty-gritty stuff I wasn't so sure of.
 
Its all about priorities, does Sindh want to pay back $2 billion loan of KCR or rather save children in Thar? We must give PPP credit for thinking about poor instead of big infrastructure project which will only benefit Karachi.
this is sarcasm right? If you meant it for real then after doing this:guns::sniper: ,I would do this.:suicide::suicide2:
 
If China can deal with India, we shall deal with Japan. Its just business.
 
The feasibility of mass transit system was done by Jica twice in Lahore. They also proposed magnetic levitation train and under ground system but due to obvious reasons these projects were never realized. Metro project was funded and executed by chinese which used Japanese feasibility report.

Irrespective of China VS Japan thing, We should increase our relations with Japan in various factors. Back in university, most of lab equipment, chemicals and projects were funded by Japanese however after 2002 it has changed. We need to reopen new avenues now.

@Nilgiri JICA has worked on any Indian project?
 
The feasibility of mass transit system was done by Jica twice in Lahore. They also proposed magnetic levitation train and under ground system but due to obvious reasons these projects were never realized. Metro project was funded and executed by chinese which used Japanese feasibility report.

Irrespective of China VS Japan thing, We should increase our relations with Japan in various factors. Back in university, most of lab equipment, chemicals and projects were funded by Japanese however after 2002 it has changed. We need to reopen new avenues now.

@Nilgiri JICA has worked on any Indian project?

Yes JICA has very good heritage in India now. I know number of people (family, friends etc) involved in these projects (like delhi metro) and they have always been very impressed by JICA professionalism.

The current big one they are involved with in India is the Dedicated Freight Corridor (DFC) but they are also involved in lot else:

https://www.jica.go.jp/india/english/activities/activity.html

IMO, Pakistan would do well for itself to cooperate with JICA on whole gamut of projects. At very least it will offer competition in these infra objectives Pakistan has laid out.
 

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