Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Gryphon]

Yes, it seems like the CZ-806 BREN 2 and CZ-807 (7.62x39) are in fact different sub-families of the CZ-805 BREN. But from what I remember, the CZ-807 predates the CZ-806, it came around the time of the CZ-805A2 in 2013 and was made for India's rifle trials. So it doesn't benefit from the CZ-806's improvements in recoil and weight.

What could end up happening now is that we see another sub-family, one that aims to tackle 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, and 7.62 NATO while also building on the improvements of the BREN 2. Maybe a BREN 3?

CZ 805 weighs 3.60 Kg, CZ-807 weighs 3.31 Kg (x39) while CZ 806 Bren 2 is around 3.10 Kg.

The CZ 807 trialed by India failed (or some officials made it fail due to no offer of kickbacks ). The CZ-807 trialed by PA passed to become one of the three finalists. I assume they offered an improved version to PA. It will not take them much time to come with a 7.62x51mm version of CZ 807. Otherwise, they can offer the x51 BREN 2 variant.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I know that for the last few years, but what was your point?

We are opting for two rifles one for 7.62 X 39 caliber and one for 7.62 X 51 caliber so one has been selected and talks for other one are taking place and we may hear about the winner soon.

 

[Thunder.Storm]

empty gun weight means nothing as soldier carries one with the full mag which is 3.985kg with 30 round mag

read my post again.

 

[Areesh]

Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.

It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.

 

[Gryphon]

Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.

It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.

Producing two rifles from two OEMs will make it complex & costly for POF. My bet is 7.62x51mm CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807 BREN. LoU to negotiate small arms sale/ToT with CZ has reinforced this idea. That means no Beretta or SCAR. But, fanboys will get a no. of scars somewhere.

 

[Zarvan]

Don't think PA would go for some other gun to replace G3.

It would be some other variant of CZ Bren. For all fanboys of SCAR-H I think it is time they accept the fact that SCAR is not coming to PA.

There is no BREN 7.62 X 51 yet. Pakistan won't wait for more months. Talks are on with Berreta and SCAR H and one of them will be selected.

Producing two rifles from two OEMs will make it complex & costly for POF. My bet is 7.62x51mm CZ 806 BREN 2 or CZ 807 BREN. LoU to negotiate small arms sale/ToT with CZ has reinforced this idea. That means no Beretta or SCAR. But, fanboys will get a no. of scars somewhere.

You will see it yourself no BREN 7.62 X 51 is coming. For 7.62 X 51 it's either SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200. As for production cost and other that is nothing much if we are getting permission to export them.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is no BREN 7.62 X 51 yet. Pakistan won't wait for more months. Talks are on with Berreta and SCAR H and one of them will be selected.


You will see it yourself no BREN 7.62 X 51 is coming. For 7.62 X 51 it's either SCAR H or Berreta ARX 200. As for production cost and other that is nothing much if we are getting permission to export them.

1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible?

2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else?

3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and bang for the buck. Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."

 

[Hamza913]

no! don't consider it official please. I am a journalist with defense as my beat. Just connecting the strings and it is one of my analysis. I can proudly say that my analysis prove to be right oftenly. ARX-200 is a strong contender unlike SCAR which many members on this forum think. ARX-200 is getting serious attention and passed the tough standards of Pakistan Army.

What about that Turkish rifle? There was a bunch of news about that recently.

 

[Zarvan]

1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible?

2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else?

3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and bang for the buck. Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."

I know some MODS who are in contact with SCAR guy who is in Pakistan for trials. He is well confident for the deal. The talks with BREN never took place for X 51 it was for X 39. As we speak Pakistan is in talks with FN and Berreta for 7.62 X 51. As for nightmare issues because of so called logistics and other things than these people need to know history of our Armed Forces we alwaus like two to three different kind whether in Tanks or IFV or APC or other weapons unlike USA and UK and Euorpe

1. You had no problem believing that the PA would wait for a 7.62x39 SCAR if the SCAR-H is selected, then why is the reverse with waiting BREN 7.62x51 after selecting the BREN 7.62x39 not possible?

2. Being able to export expensive rifles doesn't mean that the Army itself would be available to afford all those rifles for itself. The price tag of any product is comprised of (1) the cost of R&D, (2) the cost of production (e.g. labour), and (3) the profit. Assuming the POF SCAR-H costs $2,000 (which is a steep drop from the current rate), POF would get a return of 20-25% in profit. Let's assume POF doesn't take any portion of the profit (for new projects), that would mean the Army would have to sell 3 SCAR-H in order to fund one of its own SCAR-H. How many countries are there right now capable of buying that many rifles? Saudi Arabia (assuming they don't end up buying from others)? Who else?

3. I agree, the PA wasn't too worried about cost, otherwise they would've selected some sub-$1,000 rifle from China or Russia. The POF BREN itself would probably come in the range of $1,200-1,500 (i.e. in the territory of the MKEK MPT-76). But being flexible on cost does not mean being oblivious to affordability and bang for the buck. Yes, the SCAR-H is the best rifle, but why would that matter when the SCAR, ARX and BREN each passed the Army's criteria? Shoppers look for "the best," but organizations - be it Pakistan or even the U.S. - look for what "meets the requirements."

Each and everything was calculated before starting trials. Decision was taken afters years of research and other work.

 

[Path-Finder]

I know some MODS who are in contact with SCAR guy who is in Pakistan for trials. He is well confident for the deal. The talks with BREN never took place for X 51 it was for X 39. As we speak Pakistan is in talks with FN and Berreta for 7.62 X 51. As for nightmare issues because of so called logistics and other things than these people need to know history of our Armed Forces we alwaus like two to three different kind whether in Tanks or IFV or APC or other weapons unlike USA and UK and Euorpe


Each and everything was calculated before starting trials. Decision was taken afters years of research and other work.

Hazrat @Zarvan which mods are in touch with FN? tell us as well. Your Blind support of a product doesn't reflect on realities that will take place and be prepared for a shock because these informants of yours told you that CZ SCAR was out but it won the tender! so lay off the reports and wait for official confirmation. as for CZ x51 the jury is out there!

 

[Zarvan]

Hazrat @Zarvan which mods are in touch with FN? tell us as well. Your Blind support of a product doesn't reflect on realities that will take place and be prepared for a shock because these informants of yours told you that CZ SCAR was out but it won the tender! so lay off the reports and wait for official confirmation. as for CZ x51 the jury is out there!

Go to my twitter account or facebook you will get the clue specially from twitter account

 

[Path-Finder]

It was reported by all sources that PA was testing CZ 806 BREN 2 just like most of them were reporting Zastava M21 was under trials instead of the M77. But, pictures of BREN 2 were different from the rifle PA was offered (See Page 1 of this thread). The one seen in Pakistan uses a curved magazine (like AK-47) and I am glad Mr. Martin Šanda has confirmed that it was the 7.62x39mm CZ 807 which was trialed 'successfully' by PA.

I believe both FN and Beretta have already lost the tender. While the rifles offered by FN (x51 and x39) are very expensive, the ARX-160 (x39) offered by Beretta will be a 'downgrade' of the army units using the Chinese AK-47s.

From ARMÁDNÍ NOVINY article:

"..............CZ BREN 2 is very well thought out platform family of multirážové assault rifles in three calibers 5.56 × 45 NATO / 7.62 x 39 / 7.62 x 51. From the shortest 8 "special, to the rifle for precision shooters. All while maintaining the same shooting habits, control, ergonomics and sustainability of weapons in combat deployment, " said Šanda explaining a major shift from CZ 805 to CZ BREN 2.


You can now speculate what is coming as a replacement for G3.

@Path-Finder @Thorough Pro @Horus @Kurlang @Suff Shikan

More nails in the coffin of SCAR ooops i better not make the SCAR fans . It is becoming certain that a CZ SCAR can happen and it will be good to see what that rifle will be like despite there being a minority wanting SCAR to win just because it aesthetically appeases them and PA is no rush to adopt a platform either they rather get the best solution possible and CZ SCAR can be it!

There is a video that I cannot locate in which the person from CZ said the rifle was designed to handle the 7.62 calibre so 556 is absolutely NO issue for CZ BREN if NATO adopts a 6mm cartridge then the BREN will have no issues at all!! Problem is I cannot locate the video. as for the numbers 805 to 807 well don't be surprised if 809 turns up because CZ as a company goes to the drawing board from what we can gather to further improve the rifle platform, all based on feedback and the data collected by CZ from PA may lead to another improved variant!

Go to my twitter account or facebook you will get the clue specially from twitter account

give the twitter account?

 

[Gryphon]

What about that Turkish rifle? There was a bunch of news about that recently.

It is out of the race.

 

[Zarvan]

More nails in the coffin of SCAR ooops i better not make the SCAR fans . It is becoming certain that a CZ SCAR can happen and it will be good to see what that rifle will be like despite there being a minority wanting SCAR to win just because it aesthetically appeases them and PA is no rush to adopt a platform either they rather get the best solution possible and CZ SCAR can be it!

There is a video that I cannot locate in which the person from CZ said the rifle was designed to handle the 7.62 calibre so 556 is absolutely NO issue for CZ BREN if NATO adopts a 6mm cartridge then the BREN will have no issues at all!! Problem is I cannot locate the video. as for the numbers 805 to 807 well don't be surprised if 809 turns up because CZ as a company goes to the drawing board from what we can gather to further improve the rifle platform, all based on feedback and the data collected by CZ from PA may lead to another improved variant!


give the twitter account?

https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989?lang=en

 

[Path-Finder]

https://twitter.com/zarwanali1989?lang=en