Pakistan's Human Development Before, During and After Musharraf Years

[Vinod2070]

Then why at the end of his tenure Pakistan was facing a BOP crisis.He hardly made any investment in core sectors like Power and other infra projects.Now look at the power crisis.All he did was to create a credit bubble and that in turn created a consumer boom.That bubble bursted in 2008, and now Pakistan's is suffering from it.If you wanna create sustainable economic growth you must invest on infrastructure,health and education.

Not sure about health but at least he was focused on education and started several universities.

It was a period of easy liquidity the world over and he took advantage of that to fuel consumerism and growth.

Yes, the fundamentals were probably not in place and that came back to haunt later.

 

[INDIC]

Then why at the end of his tenure Pakistan was facing a BOP crisis.He hardly made any investment in core sectors like Power and other infra projects.Now look at the power crisis.All he did was to create a credit bubble and that in turn created a consumer boom.That bubble bursted in 2008, and now Pakistan's is suffering from it.If you wanna create sustainable economic growth you must invest on infrastructure,health and education.

I was watching some program that current Railway crisis is also a legacy of military rule of Zia ul Haq's time. Some army officer took railway ministry and completely ceased the freight transport of Pakistan Railways thus making it bankrupt but it was unlucky Zardari and Bilour who has the face the climax of this crisis and public wrath.

 

[ExtraOdinary]

I heard Sir Mushy cant run for elections

 

[RiazHaq]

Sir, an observer can conclude that the people may have considered the punishment you describe to be well worth the value of getting rid of a dictator. May be the people are hoping that regular elections will permanently banish the Army to the barracks, where it rightfully belongs.

I agree.

People have a right to pick leaders regardless of whether they can deliver or not!

But what does it do to them and their country?

Are there better examples?

Like South Korea, Taiwan and Malaysia which endured dictators to pave the way for genuine democracy through human development?

In my view, the best way to usher in genuine and successful democratic rule in any developing nation is to first unleash East and South East Asian style rapid economic growth and human development which were brought about by dictators like General Park Chung-hee of South Korea, Mahathir Mohammad of Malaysia and General Suharto of Indonesia. Each of these autocrats served long enough to bring their nations in to the modern industrial era and created a large urban middle class which is now sustaining democratic rule. Until such time as Pakistan has a well educated and politically empowered urban middle class making up more than half of its population, the electoral process will continue to result in patronage-based feudal democracy of the kind that exists today.

Haq's Musings: Twelve Years Since Musharraf's Coup

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I agree.

People have a right to pick leaders regardless of whether they can deliver or not!

But what does it do to them and their country?

Are there better examples?

Like South Korea, Taiwan and Malaysia which endured dictators to pave the way for genuine democracy through human development?

In my view, the best way to usher in genuine and successful democratic rule in any developing nation is to first unleash East and South East Asian style rapid economic growth and human development which were brought about by dictators like General Park Chung-hee of South Korea, Mahathir Mohammad of Malaysia and General Suharto of Indonesia. Each of these autocrats served long enough to bring their nations in to the modern industrial era and created a large urban middle class which is now sustaining democratic rule. Until such time as Pakistan has a well educated and politically empowered urban middle class making up more than half of its population, the electoral process will continue to result in patronage-based feudal democracy of the kind that exists today.

Haq's Musings: Twelve Years Since Musharraf's Coup

An understandable point of view Sir, but this begs the next question. Despite several chances, why have Pakistani dictators failed to set the foundations that would bring Pakistan into the modern age with a large middle class that can sustain democracy? Unless that happens, your scenario, that has been successful elsewhere, is unlikely, as we vacillate between despotic dictators and corrupt civilians endlessly.

 

[BATMAN]

Sir, an observer can conclude that the people may have considered the punishment you describe to be well worth the value of getting rid of a dictator. May be the people are hoping that regular elections will permanently banish the Army to the barracks, where it rightfully belongs.

Why you call him dictator? He was elected President!

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Why you call him dictator? He was elected President!

Gen Zia was also "elected" at some point, but the truth of the matter remains. A dictator is a dictator, and both Gen Zia and Gen Musharraf ruined the country by their usurpation of power, as dictators.

 

[Contrarian]

I agree.

People have a right to pick leaders regardless of whether they can deliver or not!

But what does it do to them and their country?

Are there better examples?

Like South Korea, Taiwan and Malaysia which endured dictators to pave the way for genuine democracy through human development?

In my view, the best way to usher in genuine and successful democratic rule in any developing nation is to first unleash East and South East Asian style rapid economic growth and human development which were brought about by dictators like General Park Chung-hee of South Korea, Mahathir Mohammad of Malaysia and General Suharto of Indonesia. Each of these autocrats served long enough to bring their nations in to the modern industrial era and created a large urban middle class which is now sustaining democratic rule. Until such time as Pakistan has a well educated and politically empowered urban middle class making up more than half of its population, the electoral process will continue to result in patronage-based feudal democracy of the kind that exists today.

Haq's Musings: Twelve Years Since Musharraf's Coup

There is a third way.
A way in which a rural populace, a poor populace, divided by clans and castes and religions can still usher in successful democracy and keep improving it in iterations with time ALONG with economic and educational standards of the country.

The example is India.

 

[BATMAN]

Gen Zia was also "elected" at some point, but the truth of the matter remains. A dictator is a dictator, and both Gen Zia and Gen Musharraf ruined the country by their usurpation of power, as dictators.

Getting promoted to general is sign of leadership not dictatorship. matter of fact is both were elected representative and you are simply hater, with no rational.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Getting promoted to general is sign of leadership not dictatorship. matter of fact is both were elected representative and you are simply hater, with no rational.

I have no problems with promotion to General or any other ranks by virtue of leadership of the military, for it is their right. But disposing an elected government by using military force and assuming power is what makes a General a dictator, and both Gen Zia and Gen Musharraf did that, as did others before them. As you can see, there is no hate in this rational position.

 

[BATMAN]

Read your past comments, they only hint at general constipation.

I would not talk about Zia in this thread, but Musharraf's disposal act, was infact a counter disposal.
Nawaz Sharif hijacked a plane and refused it to land.
Installed an army chief without sacking the existing one.. that may have taken Sharif's general sacking record to 4.
Sharif, fuked judiciary many times.. his stalwart Javed Hashmi was known for raiding office of chief justices.
It was matter of time, his idiocracies, firing back at him.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Read your past comments, they only hint at general constipation.

I would not talk about Zia in this thread, but Musharraf's disposal act, was infact a counter disposal.
Nawaz Sharif hijacked a plane and refused it to land.
Installed an army chief without sacking the early one.. that may have taken Sharif's general sacking record to 4.
It was matter of time, his idiocracies, firing back at him.

My comments speak for themselves, all of them. It is your sycophantic defense of dictators that is revealing, not my rational positions, expressed calmly and politely.

My opposition of all dictators is nothing personal, but an indication of the damage that they do to a nation in the long run. Pakistan has been lucky so far that we have not ended up with a huge disaster like Field Marshal Idi Amin, but who knows what future CsOAS will do given their unabridged powers and tendencies to abrogate the Constitution whenever they feel justified to do so.

Even if dictators deliver some years of economic progress, as the present thread claims, in the long run they lead to a much bigger disaster than what they started out to deal with, with proclamations of noble intentions (and promising elections in "90 days").

 

[RiazHaq]

An understandable point of view Sir, but this begs the next question. Despite several chances, why have Pakistani dictators failed to set the foundations that would bring Pakistan into the modern age with a large middle class that can sustain democracy? Unless that happens, your scenario, that has been successful elsewhere, is unlikely, as we vacillate between despotic dictators and corrupt civilians endlessly.

The reason Pakistan has a rising middle class today is because of the periods of high growth during military rule, particularly during Musharraf's rule from 2000-2007.

Haq's Musings: 1999-2009: Pakistan's Decade of Urban Middle Class Growth

There is a third way.
A way in which a rural populace, a poor populace, divided by clans and castes and religions can still usher in successful democracy and keep improving it in iterations with time ALONG with economic and educational standards of the country.

The example is India.

India, with its world's largest population of poor, hungry and illiterates, is not a good example to follow for anyone.

Haq's Musings: 63 Years After Independence, India Remains Home to World's Largest Population of Poor, Hungry and Illiterates

 

[Contrarian]

India, with its world's largest population of poor, hungry and illiterates, is not a good example to follow for anyone.

Haq's Musings: 63 Years After Independence, India Remains Home to World's Largest Population of Poor, Hungry and Illiterates

At the moment - Yes. But India has been growing faster than Pakistan for over a decade now. Law and order in India is far better than in Pakistan. Education is far better than Pakistan. HDI is better than Pakistan albeit marginally. And India has consistent functioning democracy.

That means that in the end, India will continue to improve faster than Pakistan - using democracy. No dictatorships required.

 

[Vinod2070]

At the moment - Yes. But India has been growing faster than Pakistan for over a decade now. Law and order in India is far better than in Pakistan. Education is far better than Pakistan. HDI is better than Pakistan albeit marginally. And India has consistent functioning democracy.

That means that in the end, India will continue to improve faster than Pakistan - using democracy. No dictatorships required.

Facts don't mean the Pavlovian response can be avoided.

Some people want to remain in their fantasies, not really looking for solutions.